Airtran-Midwest getting closer to a deal?

[gt1900]

Boy.... How fast you guys have forgotten 9/11.... To leave a company with 100 to 300 guys below you to be the most junior guy at a new company because with current pay rates, you may earn more in 20 years??? Hate to say this, but you guys don't learn...... How many guys left AAI, Alaska, Southwest, or any number of companys that didn't pay what UAL, DAL, NWA, and CAL paid prior to 9/11 to make more money.. How many of those guys have just been called back from recal, or left the airline industry all together to make much less than they did before... If they would have stayed at their original airline, they would have ended up making hundreds of thousand more than there gonna make now.. The grass isn't always greener................Seniority is huge... And if the chit hits the fan next week all those guys who left for greener pastures are gonna get screwed, just like all the junior UAL, NWA, AA, and Cal guys did after 9/11... If the most junior AAI guys get hosed in the short term, the stability of a truely national LCC will more than likely make up for it in the future.. AAI will not be able to expand out west without some sort of merger, Alaska and SW would crush AAI out west... A 1-4 integration would not be great for the AAI guys.. 1-5 or 1-6 would be more reasonable.. If you came to AAI just for the 2 1/2 year upgrade, you are extemely short sided and you shouldn't have come in the first place...

 

[Ty Webb]

The 1980's Museum of Airline Management called . . they want our CEO back.

Boy.... How fast you guys have forgotten 9/11.... To leave a company with 100 to 300 guys below you to be the most junior guy at a new company because with current pay rates, you may earn more in 20 years???

The reason it doesn't makes sense to you is because you are missing the point- AAI management has shown that they are not capable of working together with the pilot group in a synergistic manner to build something we can all be proud of.

When they were handed the ball (when the contract became amenable) they got greedy, and instead of emulating SWA, they reached for the old EAL Contract Negotiations 101 playbook.

Recent events have left many of us shaking our heads, and wondering if these guys are really ready for the big leagues. . . . the jury is definitely still out on that one.

.

 

[Phaedrus]

Recent events have left many of us shaking our heads, and wondering if these guys are really ready for the big leagues. . . . the jury is definitely still out on that one

.

Amen to that Brother Ty. Wasn't it in "Altitudes" about 7 mos. ago that JL presented his picture for the future of AAI? I wish I'd kept that issue. The picture wasn't awe inspiring. With the group of people flying those airplanes and just a little vision, AirTran would be a great, great place to hang your hat.

 

[Lear70]

Boy.... How fast you guys have forgotten 9/11....

Ummm... excuse me, but... what the flying FRACK does this have to do with 9/11?

To leave a company with 100 to 300 guys below you to be the most junior guy at a new company because with current pay rates, you may earn more in 20 years??? Hate to say this, but you guys don't learn......

OHHH, OK. I get it. So no one should EVER leave their Regional airline, is that it?

Your logic is faulty. To make a broad generalization you MUST be able to apply that generalization to ALL situations and scenarios and find logic in them.

I find no logic in your argument when applied outside the one unforeseeable event of 9/11 and find absolutely ZERO correlation here.

How many guys left AAI, Alaska, Southwest, or any number of companys that didn't pay what UAL, DAL, NWA, and CAL paid prior to 9/11 to make more money. How many of those guys have just been called back from recal, or left the airline industry all together to make much less than they did before... If they would have stayed at their original airline, they would have ended up making hundreds of thousand more than there gonna make now..

If, If, If.

If management hadn't been so GREEDY, those companies wouldn't have been gutted as they were. Many of the bankruptcy RAPINGS didn't come from being in such dire financial straights that liquidation was just around the corner. Those management groups decided to line their pockets with the grief and aftermath of 9/11.

IF they had been honorable and ethical, those pilots would STILL have made good choices in the long-run with their airline changes.

The grass isn't always greener................Seniority is huge... And if the chit hits the fan next week all those guys who left for greener pastures are gonna get screwed, just like all the junior UAL, NWA, AA, and Cal guys did after 9/11...

You can live your life like that if you want to, I absolutely REFUSE to do so.

If many of us lived that "safely", we'd be still driving Lears 28 days a month with MAYBE 2 or 3 days off to satisfy the 12 off every calendar quarter FAR or flying a B1900 20 days a month for $48k max CA pay at Year 12.

Sorry, but most of us have better career aspirations than that. If it takes a pay cut the first year or two to get to where we want and we start over again, too bad, that's seniority my friend.

If the most junior AAI guys get hosed in the short term, the stability of a truely national LCC will more than likely make up for it in the future..

The word is spelled TRULY. And TRULY, the ONLY way it will "make up for it" in the future is if we are able to negotiate a higher payscale in the future based on a more solid and profitable company. If it does NOT pay more in the future, it will NEVER "make up for it". I enjoy my job, but my enjoyment doesn't feed my family or save enough money to have my house and boat paid off with enough money to enjoy my retirement by the time I'm 60.

AAI will not be able to expand out west without some sort of merger, Alaska and SW would crush AAI out west...

Wow, that's insightful, you should ask World Aviation News if they need someone in their Clairvoyant Department.

A 1-4 integration would not be great for the AAI guys.. 1-5 or 1-6 would be more reasonable.. If you came to AAI just for the 2 1/2 year upgrade, you are extemely short sided and you shouldn't have come in the first place...

Hmmm... How can I say this politely. That would be none of your fracking business. You just described probably 50% or more of the new-hires in the last 3 years who left jobs paying more for the unknown but reasonably foreseeable future with AirTran based on the company's status at the time with existing and future orders.

I believe you lack understanding of how the MAJORITY of pilots choose their future in aviation, or at least your diatribe above supports such a conclusion.

But thanks for the lambasting anyway.

We now return you to your regularly-scheduled programming.

 

[Citrusflyer]

Wow, where has all the love gone????

 

[Lear70]

Here's an idea for a fair YX-AAI integration (if it should come to pass):

in no particular order:
a. Preserve jobs.
b. Avoid windfalls to either group at the expense of the other.
c. Maintain or improve pre-merger pay and standard of living.
d. Maintain or improve pre-merger pilot status.
e. Minimize detrimental changes to career expectations.

And if both sides can't agree on the above it goes to binding arbitration.

I don't just like it; I'm living it.

Ummm... in case you missed it, that's what we're doing here.

The above is a great GENERALIZATION of how it should work, but every airline integration is different so you have to start getting SPECIFIC and list seniority ranges, seat locks, etc to accomplish the integration while abiding by the above.

No matter what you do, someone's going to suffer. AFCitrus is spot-on in this case, as are many who have spoken up for an integration that realizes career expectations.

The problem is that once you satisfy one group's expectations, the people junior to them now suffer delays. Let's say that the senior Midwest F/O's were expecting upgrades in 6 months, so you arrange the seniority to where they upgrade right about the same time our F/O's who were slated to upgrade in the same time do. Now you just filled 20-30 delivery slots that they NEXT AAI F/O's would have taken.

So instead of a year for that next batch, they get pushed back to the year and a half time scale. And so-on and so-forth down the seniority list until you reach the bottom.

I'm not saying that's the WRONG approach, it may very well be the MOST fair of a bad situation, even though a lot of the junior F/O's would get hosed in the process as well as stapling probably half of the Midwest F/O's to the bottom of the list.

I guess you could say we'd be "equally-screwed" that way, but it would be equitable.

That's why I'd prefer a 1 for 5 or 1 for 6 integration with a 5-year fence which would allow AAI pilots to continue their upgrade based on deliveries and would allow MEH pilots to upgrade based on their own attrition (which is all they were upgrading for right now anyway).

If they wanted to come to Atlanta, they can bid for their same seat at whatever their seniority can hold but they are seat locked for that 5 years.

Vice-versa for our F/O's wanting to go to MKE (had one on the jumpseat MKE-ATL 2 days ago), they could go and bid whatever their seniority could hold as an F/O but would be seat locked in that domicile as an F/O for 5 years allowing MEH F/O's to upgrade at roughly the same pace they had pre-merger.

CA's would work similarly, with fences locking them into their existing domiciles unless the company shifted aircraft between domiciles which resulted in no additional CA seats system-wide. Example: management decides to remove 4 aircraft from an East-Coast flow and put them in MKE for West-Coast expansion / Frequency increase. A MKE domicile vacancy / ATL domicile reduction appears on the Vacancy list in FLICA, ATL CA's would be entitled to take those MKE seats because it isn't growth.

Everyone gets locked in to what they were previously doing, no one gets really shafted. MEH guys please speak up to let me know what might or might not be fair to you guys with that idea?

Of course, since I'm not on that committee, my opinion means exactly SQUAT, but I'll definitely be submitting this to AP & the group if/when the time comes. Hopefully it will get at least SOME contemplation... and I appreciate the people on here who engaged in meaningful debate about it, as we have some union guys who lurk on here and seeing all sides in open discussion helps broaden our perspectives.

Have a GREAT New Year's everyone, wherever you might be (flying or at work).

 

[Lear70]

So, what was the question, again . . . I forget.

Well, when you put it like that,,, me too. LOL

 

[crashpad]

Why did AirTran bid for Midex and not Frontier?

 

[Kharma Police]

Why did AirTran bid for Midex and not Frontier?

Good question, I see more possibilities with less routes that overlap, then again Bob and Joe didn't ask for our opinion.

 

[USARET]

Why did AirTran bid for Midex and not Frontier?

If you listen to the web cast carefully there are subtle hints in there that might give some clues as to what's next after the Midex acquisition. When I was in recurrent last summer Joe was asked about some hypothetical merger possibilities that only included merging with one other airline and each time his response was "you guys are not thinking big enough." Take from that what you will but I believe that the plan may include another merger after the Midex deal is complete. We shall see.