Airtran-Midwest getting closer to a deal?

[Phaedrus]

Sounds like a mirror image of my thinking. It was a tough decision but one I look back on and am glad I made the one I did. Being away from the family is the toughest part about this job v. AirTran, but it will get better as I gain some seniority. I just wasn't ready to invest what little time I have in a company, that in my opinion, has little vision all the while wondering if I was going to have to start all over a few years from now. Granted, there is no guarantee with any company in this business, but stability was my number one nugget on the AAI v. FX scale. Pay ain't bad either...

 

[SkiFishFly]

Or, SWA buys Airtran, keeps the -700s, and sells the 717s to MEH?

Airtran buys MEH. SWA buys AirTran and then sells off the 717 operation as a seperate airline.
Will SWA keep us 737 drivers as part of this deal?

 

[Lear70]

I'm sure they would... if it happened that way.

SWA has bought several small airlines and integrated the crews of the airlines they purchased.

The notable exception is the ATA deal, and they didn't actually buy the airline, just the gates and slots, so they obviously didn't feel obligated to the pilots.

Don't think this will happen this way anytime soon though... we have too many 717's to be interesting unless they could split the fleet like that profitably and I doubt JL or BF think a fleet of 717's alone is a good thing. The 737 is lowering CASM dramatically, it's a great airframe for what we do.

 

[Remington]

Rumor has it that SWA NEEDS 737-700s. How far will they go to get these airframes? Buy up deferred AirTran planes or buy the entire airline? I am sure nobody in the airline purchase committee intends to call and ask my opionion, but since you asked, I think SWA would keep the 737 pilots also.

 

[another cfii]

Hey Rich,

Thanks for all the detailed play-by-play analysis.. From a current linker, hope you're catching up on your number of posts at your message board, cuz we sure miss ya, since now it's so toned down...

Seems to me AAI to buy MEH is a done deal that's just waiting to be signed, especially with MEH getting outside help to "appraise" their values, and big daddy AirTran is willing to cough up more cash if needed, and their markets do really fit well together.

Just trying to see if i should stay put or jump into bed with AirTran...

 

[Lear70]

Hey Rich,

Thanks for all the detailed play-by-play analysis.. From a current linker, hope you're catching up on your number of posts at your message board, cuz we sure miss ya, since now it's so toned down...

Seems to me AAI to buy MEH is a done deal that's just waiting to be signed, especially with MEH getting outside help to "appraise" their values, and big daddy AirTran is willing to cough up more cash if needed, and their markets do really fit well together.

Just trying to see if i should stay put or jump into bed with AirTran...

Hey, my brother, what's up?

Actually, we have 2 message boards, one of which is mainly for training and flight issues that I just lurk on,,, still learning the intricacies of the plane. The other message board, believe it or not, I just applied for access to a couple days ago. It's private and run by one of our pilots and I don't know much about it yet.

Coming to work here? Well, I have to say, this place is a THOUSAND times better than PCL in terms of quality of life. My worst month on reserve was better than just about ANY month as a lineholder at PCL...

Except for pay. I made $72k my last year at PCL. Starting pay here is around $40k. Ouch. Doesn't catch up to PCL CA pay until about year 4 F/O, and will NEVER make up for what I lose those first 3 years until I upgrade to CA (unless I'm an F/O for 12 years - LOL).

I think you're right about it being a done deal, which is why I'm trying to stir the pot a little here and get the senior guys thinking a little bit about seniority integration as it would affect the F/O's here. Shot off an email or 3 to my reps as well, since AP went up to talk to the Midwest MEC this week.

Don't know how much good it will do, but all I can do is try, right?

Go ahead and take the interview, get hired, then make a decision. By the time you do that, we should know a lot more (late Jan / early Feb).

 

[Ty Webb]

I just can't afford to sit 5-7 years as an F/O. If I'm going to do that, I might as well go to CAL or SWA where the F/O pay is good after 1st year or, God willing, Purple or Brown (not that I want to do 6-8 day stints in foreign countries, but I miss cargo).

I have been very happy here at AirTran, but given the developments here in the past 2 years . . . if I were an FO, I would certainly be trying to get on with SWA, CAL, Fedex or UPS . . . . and that was even before the Midex announcement.

Even with only 20 years left, you would:

1) Make over $1 mil more before you retire;

2) Have more days off every month you work, for the rest of your career;

3) Be treated better by management every day of your career;

4) Have more job security

So, what was the question, again . . . I forget.

 

[md83drvr]

If the merger would go through I would guess on some type of ration/relative position. However, ME is not bringing 36 aircraft (25 717, and 11 MD80), they are only bringing 25 717. As others have pointed out Joe and Co have said the MD80's would be replaced with 737's FL has on order. So the 737 captain seats should be FL pilots.

I would say the merged senority list would have to be adjusted to account for only the ME 717 captains.

The number of pilots that ME needs to fly the 717 fleet get merged on a percentage/relative position. The rest get placed behind the last FL pilot on the date of merger.

While not perfect for the ME pilots, they would at least have a greater chance of upgrading in the same time frame as they would have if ME stayed independant. It would also protect the FL pilots and their carrer expectations.

 

[AFcitrus]

I agree,

The only fair way to do an integration would be (for lack of a better term) one of expected career progression. If you are a ME captain expecting to be on reserve the next 3 years - you get integrated such that that time frame remains the same. If you are a ME FO expecting to upgrade five years from now, you are integrated such that you remain an FO for the next five years.

I'm not sure how this would be done but it sounds fair from a logical standpoint. No one could complain and say they got the shaft because they would get exactly what their expectations are now - as would FL pilots. No one would get stapled unless that is what where their expected career integration puts them.

Rest assured in the event this acquisition goes throught, I'll be pushing our representation to do just this. Anything else would be unacceptable!!

Cheers

 

[TWA Dude]

Here's an idea for a fair YX-AAI integration (if it should come to pass):

in no particular order:
a. Preserve jobs.
b. Avoid windfalls to either group at the expense of the other.
c. Maintain or improve pre-merger pay and standard of living.
d. Maintain or improve pre-merger pilot status.
e. Minimize detrimental changes to career expectations.

And if both sides can't agree on the above it goes to binding arbitration.

I don't just like it; I'm living it.

 

[gt1900]

Boy.... How fast you guys have forgotten 9/11.... To leave a company with 100 to 300 guys below you to be the most junior guy at a new company because with current pay rates, you may earn more in 20 years??? Hate to say this, but you guys don't learn...... How many guys left AAI, Alaska, Southwest, or any number of companys that didn't pay what UAL, DAL, NWA, and CAL paid prior to 9/11 to make more money.. How many of those guys have just been called back from recal, or left the airline industry all together to make much less than they did before... If they would have stayed at their original airline, they would have ended up making hundreds of thousand more than there gonna make now.. The grass isn't always greener................Seniority is huge... And if the chit hits the fan next week all those guys who left for greener pastures are gonna get screwed, just like all the junior UAL, NWA, AA, and Cal guys did after 9/11... If the most junior AAI guys get hosed in the short term, the stability of a truely national LCC will more than likely make up for it in the future.. AAI will not be able to expand out west without some sort of merger, Alaska and SW would crush AAI out west... A 1-4 integration would not be great for the AAI guys.. 1-5 or 1-6 would be more reasonable.. If you came to AAI just for the 2 1/2 year upgrade, you are extemely short sided and you shouldn't have come in the first place...

 

[Ty Webb]

The 1980's Museum of Airline Management called . . they want our CEO back.

Boy.... How fast you guys have forgotten 9/11.... To leave a company with 100 to 300 guys below you to be the most junior guy at a new company because with current pay rates, you may earn more in 20 years???

The reason it doesn't makes sense to you is because you are missing the point- AAI management has shown that they are not capable of working together with the pilot group in a synergistic manner to build something we can all be proud of.

When they were handed the ball (when the contract became amenable) they got greedy, and instead of emulating SWA, they reached for the old EAL Contract Negotiations 101 playbook.

Recent events have left many of us shaking our heads, and wondering if these guys are really ready for the big leagues. . . . the jury is definitely still out on that one.

.

 

[Phaedrus]

Recent events have left many of us shaking our heads, and wondering if these guys are really ready for the big leagues. . . . the jury is definitely still out on that one

.

Amen to that Brother Ty. Wasn't it in "Altitudes" about 7 mos. ago that JL presented his picture for the future of AAI? I wish I'd kept that issue. The picture wasn't awe inspiring. With the group of people flying those airplanes and just a little vision, AirTran would be a great, great place to hang your hat.

 

[Lear70]

Boy.... How fast you guys have forgotten 9/11....

Ummm... excuse me, but... what the flying FRACK does this have to do with 9/11?

To leave a company with 100 to 300 guys below you to be the most junior guy at a new company because with current pay rates, you may earn more in 20 years??? Hate to say this, but you guys don't learn......

OHHH, OK. I get it. So no one should EVER leave their Regional airline, is that it?

Your logic is faulty. To make a broad generalization you MUST be able to apply that generalization to ALL situations and scenarios and find logic in them.

I find no logic in your argument when applied outside the one unforeseeable event of 9/11 and find absolutely ZERO correlation here.

How many guys left AAI, Alaska, Southwest, or any number of companys that didn't pay what UAL, DAL, NWA, and CAL paid prior to 9/11 to make more money. How many of those guys have just been called back from recal, or left the airline industry all together to make much less than they did before... If they would have stayed at their original airline, they would have ended up making hundreds of thousand more than there gonna make now..

If, If, If.

If management hadn't been so GREEDY, those companies wouldn't have been gutted as they were. Many of the bankruptcy RAPINGS didn't come from being in such dire financial straights that liquidation was just around the corner. Those management groups decided to line their pockets with the grief and aftermath of 9/11.

IF they had been honorable and ethical, those pilots would STILL have made good choices in the long-run with their airline changes.

The grass isn't always greener................Seniority is huge... And if the chit hits the fan next week all those guys who left for greener pastures are gonna get screwed, just like all the junior UAL, NWA, AA, and Cal guys did after 9/11...

You can live your life like that if you want to, I absolutely REFUSE to do so.

If many of us lived that "safely", we'd be still driving Lears 28 days a month with MAYBE 2 or 3 days off to satisfy the 12 off every calendar quarter FAR or flying a B1900 20 days a month for $48k max CA pay at Year 12.

Sorry, but most of us have better career aspirations than that. If it takes a pay cut the first year or two to get to where we want and we start over again, too bad, that's seniority my friend.

If the most junior AAI guys get hosed in the short term, the stability of a truely national LCC will more than likely make up for it in the future..

The word is spelled TRULY. And TRULY, the ONLY way it will "make up for it" in the future is if we are able to negotiate a higher payscale in the future based on a more solid and profitable company. If it does NOT pay more in the future, it will NEVER "make up for it". I enjoy my job, but my enjoyment doesn't feed my family or save enough money to have my house and boat paid off with enough money to enjoy my retirement by the time I'm 60.

AAI will not be able to expand out west without some sort of merger, Alaska and SW would crush AAI out west...

Wow, that's insightful, you should ask World Aviation News if they need someone in their Clairvoyant Department.

A 1-4 integration would not be great for the AAI guys.. 1-5 or 1-6 would be more reasonable.. If you came to AAI just for the 2 1/2 year upgrade, you are extemely short sided and you shouldn't have come in the first place...

Hmmm... How can I say this politely. That would be none of your fracking business. You just described probably 50% or more of the new-hires in the last 3 years who left jobs paying more for the unknown but reasonably foreseeable future with AirTran based on the company's status at the time with existing and future orders.

I believe you lack understanding of how the MAJORITY of pilots choose their future in aviation, or at least your diatribe above supports such a conclusion.

But thanks for the lambasting anyway.

We now return you to your regularly-scheduled programming.

 

[Citrusflyer]

Wow, where has all the love gone????