Airtran MEC voted no

[Fly-By-Cable]

Ask how it worked out for SWA captains who left for United in '99.

 

[GhettoBeechjet]

Originally Posted by GhettoBeechjet
The MEC wasn't voting on wether they thought the offer was fair they were voting on wether they thought they could get MORE in arbitration..


Excuse me. I did not know you were a mind reader. Why are you a pilot then? More money in mind reading.

Did you talk to any AAI LECs even?

Ah the demonization and propaganda begins.

I doubt I will ever say anything more to any AAI ALPA leader more than "would you like the before start checklist sir?" I'm no mind reader but I would assume the criteria that they would use for any deal would be can we do better and if so at what risk. I don't know why they would have rejected the deal if they didn't think that they would do better in arbitration. Contrary to what you believe no one at SWAPA was thrilled with this deal. The only thing it had going for it was that it was probably better than the alternative. Now I guess we all get to find out.

 

[Fly-By-Cable]

Nothing is guaranteed in this industry, not pay, not stability, not job security, nothing except your seniority number. SWAPA understands it as was obvious in the proposal. Today's vote shows you that ATN MEC understands that as well.

 

[GhettoBeechjet]

Ask how it worked out for SWA captains who left for United in '99.

Poorly because United's balance sheet was already upside down. They had a great contract and the company was making money but on an unstable base. That isn't the case at SWA.

 

[GhettoBeechjet]

Nothing is guaranteed in this industry, not pay, not stability, not job security, nothing except your seniority number. SWAPA understands it as was obvious in the proposal. Today's vote shows you that ATN MEC understands that as well.

I disagree. retirements are guaranteed in this industry. I have said from the beginning that I didn't expect a gain from this deal but I did expect not to lose. Well the deal on the table would have done that and it wasn't enough for your side. If this abitration follows the normal precident the AAI pilots will gain all of the upward movement from the SWA retirements at the expense of the SWA F/Os. Simple you win I lose. With a large number of relatively young pilots about to be placed in front of me my upgrade gets pushed to NEVER. That happened to very few AAI pilots in the AIP. Forgive me for being pissed but my career value took a much larger hit than my 401k today.

 

[waveflyer]

How do you AT pilots figure out the problem of your youth without getting many of your FOs at the bottom?

Sorry- but everyone can sling mud and get personal, but it's mostly a demographic problem. How many captains there aren't 40yo yet? I'm not wworried so much about what happens to you now, but what happens to my entire career with so many guys who are younger than me going above me on the list. And I was in the back row in class.

You have to take the seniority hit. That's the only way the math works. No swa guy is going let you guys get disproportionately senior for decades just to give you relative now. If you think you'll get better in arbitration, then you don't understand leverage or our management.

 

[On Your Six]

OYS The offer was worked out between the AAI MC and SWAPA. It wasn't just a SWAPA offer as you would like to paint it. The Airtran MC must have thought it was fair or they wouldn't have signed off on it. The problem is that arbitrators ideas of fair and equitable don't seem to jive what most non lawyer types consider reasonable. The MEC wasn't voting on wether they thought the offer was fair they were voting on wether they thought they could get MORE in arbitration.
Congratulations it's a huge day for you. You were right and the rest of us were wrong. I will most likely spend the rest of my career as an F/O which will cost me $500,000 in lost income. Bet that makes you really happy.

Looks like the AT MC wasn't intouch with the AT MEC or the pilot group in general. The MC felt the pressure from SWAPAs team, but the pilot group did not. On to arbitration I guess? And try to remember that you aren't stuck at SWA forever. If you don't like your eventual spot, you can always apply somewhere else. Sure, I was right so far about many things, but it is your job to make sure that you yourself are happy. Godspeed!


OYS

 

[waveflyer]

Btw- I find it funny that the Gulfstream example was used when PCL was one AND HE IS AN ELECTED ALPA OFFICIAL(!)- Who has the GSA guy as a union leader?: not Swapa.
An ardent no voter who would still be retiring #2 on the list.

That's the kind of greed we're dealing with.

 

[Flying the Line]

It is not just AAI pilots saying there is a problem here. It is a lot of piers watching this go down in the industry.

BTW, there is still "say" here in this process for both groups. Don't just sit, and let things happen around you.

I wish you guys luck too in this. I really mean that. Sincerely.

Stop using the word piers, that refers to a structure like the Santa Monica Pier. I think your looking for peers.

 

[scoreboardII]

$287,000 a day mistake

By voting no, AT pilots collectively lost $285,000 per day come Apr 2012.

Thats: $2 million a week. $8 million a month, $100,000,000 a year.

A tenth of a billion dollars lost forever each year it takes to get over to the canyon blue side.

Tell that the women folk.

 

[On Your Six]

By voting no, AT pilots collectively lost $285,000 per day come Apr 2012.

Tell that the women folk.

The money and better schedules will come later. Seniority is everything in this business.


OYS

 

[scoreboardII]

Your right, Rodmasters is hiring.

http://www.roadmaster.com/

 

[bravodude]

The arbitrator will decide what is fair, primarily because your union couldn't offer something remotely reasonable.


OYS

And you honestly think that 6000 ORIGINAL SWA pilots are going to just sit back and let an arbitrator decide our futures for us. Calls are already beeing made to USAPA for some legal advice.

 

[redflyer65]

Not sure what side u r on, but don't throw in the towel yet. Arbitration is the end process. You never know.

JT,

I hate to tell you buddy, but it's going to arbitration. And all the money with pay and seat protections are gone...forever. That was the one deal Gary was going to give you.

If you get better seniority in Arby, it going to be real interesting how SWAPA and SW negotiate the rest of your pay and work rules.

RF

 

[Sacha]

The money and better schedules will come later. Seniority is everything in this business.


OYS

Says the twit who has none.

 

[Ty Webb]

And you honestly think that 6000 ORIGINAL SWA pilots are going to just sit back and let an arbitrator decide our futures for us.

That's what the parties agreed to. Is that not your SWAPA President's signature on the Process Agreement?

Calls are already beeing made to USAPA for some legal advice.

Thanks for the laugh. Not sure if you meant it that way or not, but that is funny. . . . and sad.

 

[Sacha]

With DPA gaining strength which would be financially devastating for ALPA and the thumbs down from the boys at Jetblue, do you think ALPA will be there financially for the Airtran guys through the expensive and protracted arbitration/legal battles to come? Or will the Trannies just pay for it out of their own pocket?

 

[jonjuan]

Congratulations it's a huge day for you. You were right and the rest of us were wrong. I will most likely spend the rest of my career as an F/O which will cost me $500,000 in lost income. Bet that makes you really happy.

Meh-just look at it this way-taxes on the wealthy are about to go up significantly. You now don't have to worry about forking over more to Uncle Sam.

 

[Ty Webb]

With DPA gaining strength which would be financially devastating for ALPA and the thumbs down from the boys at Jetblue, do you think ALPA will be there financially for the Airtran guys through the expensive and protracted arbitration/legal battles to come? Or will the Trannies just pay for it out of their own pocket?

Ah, Flightinfo . . .

One part of your group says that ALPA is sabotaging this because they want to continue to receive our dues, the other half thinks we are too expensive, and ALPA will jettison us.

The truth is that the SIA we were presented with did not pass muster with our MEC, and we continue to work within the Process Agreement signed by the four parties. There are no black helicopters with Herndon, VA plates hovering over Dallas . . . There are no secret marching orders . . . The MEC voted it down because the majority of our pilots didn't feel that a 32% seniority haircut was "fair and equitable".

 

[Lear70]

Uh, Lear we dictate your longivity pay, your vacation, and your sick bank.

Along with Gary Kelly.

Want the quickest way to 1,742 disgruntled pilots? Take them back to year 1 longevity (or ANY reduction in longevity for that matter) or reduce or wipe out their vacation and sick bank. What do you think pilots will do when they find out their sick bank will get wiped out? Be honest with yourself, what would YOU do?

Not to mention the DFR suits that would get filed for retaliatory and discriminatory practice.

There's a reaction for every action. Just a thought...

 

[bravodude]

Along with Gary Kelly.

Want the quickest way to 1,742 disgruntled pilots? Take them back to year 1 longevity (or ANY reduction in longevity for that matter) or reduce or wipe out their vacation and sick bank. What do you think pilots will do when they find out their sick bank will get wiped out? Be honest with yourself, what would YOU do?

Not to mention the DFR suits that would get filed for retaliatory and discriminatory practice.

There's a reaction for every action. Just a thought...

With all due respect if you had a choice would you pis off 1700 pilots or 6000 pilots. Ask yourself what happens when an arbitrator hands down a ruling that is less advantageous then the one we just had SL 9. what would 6000 pilots do. what will the ceo of a company that has 6000 pilots do. would he really integrate 1700 happy pilots into 6000 pis pilots and pis them off even more. Be honest with yourself what would you do.

 

[Ty Webb]

With all due respect if you had a choice would you pis off 1700 pilots or 6000 pilots. Ask yourself what happens when an arbitrator hands down a ruling that is less advantageous then the one we just had SL 9. what would 6000 pilots do.

You don't get to pick and choose whether to honor it; either you agree to let an arbitrator settle it, or you don't. That's the whole point of arbitration.

If you want to pick and choose what neutral advice to follow, that process is called "mediation", and the opportunity to do that is between now and September 30th.

 

[Lear70]

Economy is going in the tank, AT is way too inefficient in many markets, look for the cut backs to begin and guess which side of the fence they will occur.

Unlikely. AirTran flourishes in an economic downturn. Always has, and we're hedged better than Southwest is.

Add to that the fact that we've already started cutting those inefficient markets (announcements last month) and have been re-deploying the aircraft on higher-yield markets, making us even more profitable than we've already been in the past...

We're going to be just fine during the interim while we're working on this, as is Southwest and your pilot group. No reason to be hating, this is just part of the process, like it or not. I'm still betting on an 11th hour negotiated settlement, one that addresses GhettoJet's issue and that I proposed before. I'm trying to flesh it out and present it to the MC, in hopes it offers an alternative that wouldn't harm a single SWA pilots' upgrade, relative seniority, and still protects AAI pilots' Quality of Life moving forward.

Believe it or not, most of us DO value the SWA culture and believe there's ways to craft an SLI that don't harm ANYONE at SWA and don't harm AAI pilots unduly. I'm staying positive, hope everyone else can as well... Fly safe out there! :beer: (emoticon back by popular demand)

 

[Jake Dawg]

From the outside.....

1. Trannie MEC followed typical the alpo playbook and didn't give THEIR pilots a say. Ever wonder why more and more pilot groups are looking at independence from alpo? The AT MEC gave SWA/GK the bird. If the sentiment of the AT pilots is as strong as the MEC vote suggests, send it to the pilots and let the pilots give SWA/GK another bird. Much stronger position to be in.

2. If I was SW and SWAPA, I'd be pissed for one reason. The trannie MEC wasted a lot of time and money by having a MC that agreed to a deal that wasn't even close to passing. Why would the trannie MEC send a MC into negotiations without clear guidance? Only one answer, trannie and alpo dysfunction.

 

[trip]

With all due respect if you had a choice would you pis off 1700 pilots or 6000 pilots. Ask yourself what happens when an arbitrator hands down a ruling that is less advantageous then the one we just had SL 9. what would 6000 pilots do. what will the ceo of a company that has 6000 pilots do. would he really integrate 1700 happy pilots into 6000 pis pilots and pis them off even more. Be honest with yourself what would you do.

He should have thought of that before he went shopping.

 

[canyonblue]

The MEC voted it down because the majority of our pilots didn't feel that a 32% seniority haircut was "fair and equitable".

I wish you guys would stop using the "32%" lie. If every AAI pilot is losing 32%, then every SWA pilot is gaining 32%. Show me where every SWA pilot gains 32% and I will never bring it up again. Using your example our SWA senior F/O's would fall at about 30% relative on your list by DOH. This AIP would put them at around 44% relative on the new list, so your point may be that why should a SWA pilot lose 14% when we are the stronger acquiring carrier? Somebody please set Doc Brown's DeLorean to 9/20/2010, I'm sure Biff is running AirTran ALPA.

 

[JT12345]

2. If I was SW and SWAPA, I'd be pissed for one reason. The trannie MEC wasted a lot of time and money by having a MC that agreed to a deal that wasn't even close to passing. Why would the trannie MEC send a MC into negotiations without clear guidance? Only one answer, trannie and alpo dysfunction.

Sorry about that, sincerely if it is true.

I think SWAPA is really good at what they do. I respect them, and am just looking for some respect from this agreement. Not just money.

 

[JT12345]

With all due respect if you had a choice would you pis off 1700 pilots or 6000 pilots. Ask yourself what happens when an arbitrator hands down a ruling that is less advantageous then the one we just had SL 9. what would 6000 pilots do. what will the ceo of a company that has 6000 pilots do. would he really integrate 1700 happy pilots into 6000 pis pilots and pis them off even more. Be honest with yourself what would you do.

The anguish over here because we are the minority is obvious. I interviewed at SWA and this merger process is a lot worse than that was.

We just don't think we have even come close to upsetting you guys. That is why we pushed back. That agreement was really unfair, not because of other airlines and your past mergers, but because of *** who we are.***

When it is all said and done whether we get relative or date of hire or something with protections, a SWAs pilots life is not going to change much. No risk. Just the disappointment of future expectations.

There is no risk of you guys losing your jobs. So don't tell me you are as disappointed with this agreement as we are. What we have on the line here man, and to vote it down!!!!!! It was so unfair and disrepectful.

 

[Flycatcher99]

Ask how it worked out for SWA captains who left for United in '99.

This would be a good point, if we were talking about AT pilots leaving AT for SWA, and then SWA going underwater. Which we aren't.

What we're talking about is an AT pilot leaving AT for SWA (which is something many AT pilots, hundreds, in fact, were trying to do), and then finding themselves junior to and receiving less longevity credit than the fellow AT pilot, who, by the way, also upgraded to captain due to higher AT attrition, and subsequently had his captain seat protected out of seniority.

Not one of you peanut gallery types can honestly say that it is fair for a pilot who left AT to come to the better contract, better stability, better pay of SWA, to be dealt a worse deal in an acquisition SLI with AT than if he had simply stayed at AT and gotten the SWA job through acquisition. But that is what those guys were facing with SL9. Those guys will be heard in arbitration, as they should be. Many here are very content with your uppity MEC shooting this thing down.

 

[Sacha]

Ah, Flightinfo . . .

One part of your group says that ALPA is sabotaging this because they want to continue to receive our dues, the other half thinks we are too expensive, and ALPA will jettison us.

The truth is that the SIA we were presented with did not pass muster with our MEC, and we continue to work within the Process Agreement signed by the four parties. There are no black helicopters with Herndon, VA plates hovering over Dallas . . . There are no secret marching orders . . . The MEC voted it down because the majority of our pilots didn't feel that a 32% seniority haircut was "fair and equitable".

Nice redirect. The question still stands. Or does it worry you a little bit?