Airtran MEC voted no

[GhettoBeechjet]

I wonder what it will be like after this is all said and done. We have a process agreement, a transition agreement,
has anyone started the "how to get over this" agreement? Once we are all joined (assuming we all end up in the same list), are we going to have a bondfire burning ALPA flags or something that will make us all forget this happened? I for one hope someone figures out how to do this because there is going to be tons of emotions on both sides reguardless of how it ends up. Before today I thought we could all co-exist without much heartburn, but now...I am not so sure anymore. Culture??? Boy did that take on a whole new meaning after today.

Yeah no doubt. It's hard to be nice to a group that feel that their gains aren't enough until I as a SWA junior F/O have some of those gains come out of my skin. The only solutions that seem to be acceptable to the AAI group have me upgrading NEVER. Cost $500,000 to me personally in lost earnings.

 

[redflyer65]

Bingo-mouth breathers like Chase, GupWn, Wave, and Red come here spouting off that they were planning to vote NO because it was detrimental to them. Perfect. NOW-they are apparently pissed off that the other group voted no ahead of them. Unbelievably laughable. Welcome to the ALPA beat down.

Thanks for putting me in that group Juan. I just made my first post above. This is going to get gooooood.

RF

 

[Whine Lover]

"The Stupidity In This Business Knows NO Bounds " - YKW

I am sorry for ALL of you affected by this, especially those with young Families/Mortgages/Responsibilities.

This is "No Country For Old Men"....And CERTAINLY NOT one for The Young.

We have luxuries you will never be afforded...and those are being eroded.

Good Luck, and God Help You All.

There will be Blood....

YKMKR

 

[vv100]

Batna

My favorite part of the email. I knew things would get interesting, but Wow! Looking forward to see how Gary and Herb handle this.

RF

Let's just pull out the ole playbook shall we?

From Wikipedia...

It is easy to overestimate BATNA and invest too little time to research real options. This can lead to poor or faulty decision making and negotiating outcomes. 1987 saw the conclusion of a complex series of negotiations between Southwest Airlines and two different pilot groups: Southwest pilots and Muse/Transtar pilots. The Muse/Transtar pilots failed to properly analyze their BATNA: their missteps and misfortune offer valuable lessons for anyone exposed to the risks of negotiating in a volatile industry.
TranStar began as Muse Air amid the 1982 traffic controllers’ strike. By the end of 1984 the company was still struggling, and actively looking for a merger to keep it afloat. At the end of the year, Harold Simmons, president of the Amalgamated Sugar Company offered the airline the money to continue, on the condition that Lamar Muse return as CEO. Despite the new influx of cash and new leadership, the company was not able to generate a consistent profit despite its use of non-union labor and competitive fares.
In 1985, Southwest Airlines acquired Muse Air. The Muse pilots were initially unrepresented so negotiations ensued between Southwest Airlines and the Southwest Airlines Pilots Association (SWAPA). Complicating the always-contentious issue of seniority list integration was the large disparity in pay at the two companies. The difference was so large that the Muse Air operation was unable to support the Southwest Airlines pay scale.
SWAPA pursued a strategy of integrating the Muse pilots to the bottom of the list, with pay parity in five years combined with a card campaign to represent the Muse pilots. This strategy was rejected by the company on the basis of Duty to Fairly Represent and SWAPA agreed to a one time, temporary waiver of their scope clause. This allowed Muse to be run as a separate operation with numerous caveats and protections including a 1:4 growth ratio.
Muse became TranStar and chose independent representation through the TranStar Pilots Association (TPA). Perceiving the dangers inherent in a wholly owned subsidiary the pilot groups attempted to negotiate a combined master seniority list. In November 1986 an agreement was reached.
This agreement placed a pilot hired in Jun of 1982 by Southwest senior to a TranStar pilot hired in January 1981 and improved the relative seniority of all Southwest Airlines pilots. The agreement included fences, Captain seat protections and brought the TranStar pilots to pay parity no later than December 1990.
The TPA Board of Directors rejected the proposed Integrated Seniority List(ISL), apparently believing that such rejection would create more leverage for their Merger Committee to obtain a more favorable ISL.
What followed was a breakdown in negotiations and an angry exchange between union presidents.
"I can only conclude that your inner circle objects to the seniority settlement and engaged in a last minute search for reasons to sabotage the agreement and rationalize the action within your organization. This indicates a lack of good faith, which precludes any further dealings between our two unions." SWAPA President Gerald Bradley to TPA President Captain Golich
"I have waited a few days to respond to your recent letter addressing our unsuccessful negotiations. As you can imagine, it was difficult not to be angered by your groundless accusations, blatant threats and misleading statements." Captain Golich to Captain Bradley.
Negotiations were never resumed and TranStar was operated as a wholly owned subsidiary until the 9th of August 1987 when it closed its doors forever. 146 pilots who had seniority numbers at Southwest Airlines, seat protection, and (eventually) substantial raises now had no jobs. Excerpts from a letter Captain Golich wrote to Herb Kelleher on August 2:
"As you know, the TranStar pilots are in their darkest hour … I therefore request first right of hire, subject to Southwest’s normal screening, in seniority order, for the TranStar Pilots … … request some form of assistance be provided relative to the requirement for a 737 type rating … … the TranStar pilots will provide their own ground school."
The TPA BOD assessed their BATNA as superior to the agreement their merger committee was able to negotiate. Unfortunately for the pilots they represented this was a gross overestimation, and the actual BATNA turned out to be inferior not only to the negotiated agreement, but even to SWAPA’s opening position of staple.
Unfortunately the mistakes made by the TPA Board of Directors are not unique. The Airline industry is littered with examples of misapplied or overestimated BATNA. BATNA isn’t a walk away position or an assessment of the lowest acceptable offer. It is a tool to assess the certain gains presented in a negotiated agreement against the uncertain risks of the alternative. The uncertainty of those risks can lead to outcomes that are surprising and devastating.




​

 

[Max Powers]

Let's just pull out the ole playbook shall we?

From Wikipedia...

It is easy to overestimate BATNA and invest too little time to research real options. This can lead to poor or faulty decision making and negotiating outcomes. 1987 saw the conclusion of a complex series of negotiations between Southwest Airlines and two different pilot groups: Southwest pilots and Muse/Transtar pilots. The Muse/Transtar pilots failed to properly analyze their BATNA: their missteps and misfortune offer valuable lessons for anyone exposed to the risks of negotiating in a volatile industry.
TranStar began as Muse Air amid the 1982 traffic controllers’ strike. By the end of 1984 the company was still struggling, and actively looking for a merger to keep it afloat. At the end of the year, Harold Simmons, president of the Amalgamated Sugar Company offered the airline the money to continue, on the condition that Lamar Muse return as CEO. Despite the new influx of cash and new leadership, the company was not able to generate a consistent profit despite its use of non-union labor and competitive fares.
In 1985, Southwest Airlines acquired Muse Air. The Muse pilots were initially unrepresented so negotiations ensued between Southwest Airlines and the Southwest Airlines Pilots Association (SWAPA). Complicating the always-contentious issue of seniority list integration was the large disparity in pay at the two companies. The difference was so large that the Muse Air operation was unable to support the Southwest Airlines pay scale.
SWAPA pursued a strategy of integrating the Muse pilots to the bottom of the list, with pay parity in five years combined with a card campaign to represent the Muse pilots. This strategy was rejected by the company on the basis of Duty to Fairly Represent and SWAPA agreed to a one time, temporary waiver of their scope clause. This allowed Muse to be run as a separate operation with numerous caveats and protections including a 1:4 growth ratio.
Muse became TranStar and chose independent representation through the TranStar Pilots Association (TPA). Perceiving the dangers inherent in a wholly owned subsidiary the pilot groups attempted to negotiate a combined master seniority list. In November 1986 an agreement was reached.
This agreement placed a pilot hired in Jun of 1982 by Southwest senior to a TranStar pilot hired in January 1981 and improved the relative seniority of all Southwest Airlines pilots. The agreement included fences, Captain seat protections and brought the TranStar pilots to pay parity no later than December 1990.
The TPA Board of Directors rejected the proposed Integrated Seniority List(ISL), apparently believing that such rejection would create more leverage for their Merger Committee to obtain a more favorable ISL.
What followed was a breakdown in negotiations and an angry exchange between union presidents.
"I can only conclude that your inner circle objects to the seniority settlement and engaged in a last minute search for reasons to sabotage the agreement and rationalize the action within your organization. This indicates a lack of good faith, which precludes any further dealings between our two unions." SWAPA President Gerald Bradley to TPA President Captain Golich
"I have waited a few days to respond to your recent letter addressing our unsuccessful negotiations. As you can imagine, it was difficult not to be angered by your groundless accusations, blatant threats and misleading statements." Captain Golich to Captain Bradley.
Negotiations were never resumed and TranStar was operated as a wholly owned subsidiary until the 9th of August 1987 when it closed its doors forever. 146 pilots who had seniority numbers at Southwest Airlines, seat protection, and (eventually) substantial raises now had no jobs. Excerpts from a letter Captain Golich wrote to Herb Kelleher on August 2:
"As you know, the TranStar pilots are in their darkest hour … I therefore request first right of hire, subject to Southwest’s normal screening, in seniority order, for the TranStar Pilots … … request some form of assistance be provided relative to the requirement for a 737 type rating … … the TranStar pilots will provide their own ground school."
The TPA BOD assessed their BATNA as superior to the agreement their merger committee was able to negotiate. Unfortunately for the pilots they represented this was a gross overestimation, and the actual BATNA turned out to be inferior not only to the negotiated agreement, but even to SWAPA’s opening position of staple.
Unfortunately the mistakes made by the TPA Board of Directors are not unique. The Airline industry is littered with examples of misapplied or overestimated BATNA. BATNA isn’t a walk away position or an assessment of the lowest acceptable offer. It is a tool to assess the certain gains presented in a negotiated agreement against the uncertain risks of the alternative. The uncertainty of those risks can lead to outcomes that are surprising and devastating.




​

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

 

[DougCorp-9]

Not saying any of this could or couldn't happen, but IF it does, I'm sure that there will be plenty of evidence to show that the cause of it was a bunch of guys and girls who were never willing to admit to the realities of the situation, i.e. all the disparity between the two careers, and who basically turned their collective backs on a $50,000-$70,000 per year pay raise. Who do you think the anger of your neighbors will be focused on if that were to happen? How dare those mean old Southwest people come in and offer a better job and more money at a much more stable company. Not saying it will, not saying it should, just sayin'.

Respectfully,
PapaWoody

Dude,

The 50-70 thousand dollar raise crap is really getting old. I would be a reserve captain for 10-12 years making 90 TFP at 12 year pay. That equals 200,880 a year. This year I will make about 185,000 as a lineholder at AT. Sorry but 15,880 is not worth having to commute to a reserve line in OAK. Back to reality.

 

[BR715]

I would like to tell SWAPA that the money was and is not gauranteed for the remainder of my career. So taking a hit of 34% on the list was not fair and equitable. I think the majority of SW pilots if they were on the other side of this deal would be happy with what just took place. I know I am. One thing is for sure whatever happens from here I will sleep well for the rest of my life knowing i'm not some sellout.

 

[StopNTSing]

Dude,

The 50-70 thousand dollar raise crap is really getting old. I would be a reserve captain for 10-12 years making 90 TFP at 12 year pay. That equals 200,880 a year. This year I will make about 185,000 as a lineholder at AT. Sorry but 15,880 is not worth having to commute to a reserve line in OAK. Back to reality.

If you think you'll only be able to make 90TFP on reserve here, you've still got a lot to learn about our work rules, schedules and open time.

 

[JT12345]

A fair integration will not affect SWA pilot quality of life. You will not notice a change. Just future expectations whatever that is in this business is a joke anyway.

 

[Skybus]

I've been bringing this up from the beginning. Never underestimate what can and may happen. Yes this goes both ways and to both groups BUT SWA has a history of loyalty (which is reciprocal) with its Pilot group. Economy is going in the tank, AT is way too inefficient in many markets, look for the cut backs to begin and guess which side of the fence they will occur. You folks had a winning lottery ticket. Perfect? NO it was not the powerball but it was a nice 2M jackpot. Good luck guys/girls, History indicates it is going to be a bumpy ride from here on out.

 

[Fly-By-Cable]

If you think you'll only be able to make 90TFP on reserve here, you've still got a lot to learn about our work rules, schedules and open time.

open time = seniority to get it...we were never offered seniority, just bottom filler seats.

Today's vote was not 1% agenda as some of you said here. Majority of Us lobbied our MEC with emails and phone calls for over 2 weeks now to not send this one sided deal to the vote. Last night at MEC meeting an overwhelming majority took stand and demanded leadership and fair agreement.

To those of you gulping while reading union e-mail, know this... In it SWAPA just gave us ammo for the arbitration, admitting that your proposal was not about fair seniority, but about exchange of seniority for money. Arbitrator is gonna love your effort to bribe in what was supposed to be a "seniority integration" talks.

 

[HighSpeed]

F my quick upgrade.... (not, anyway)

F my 9.8% increase in seniority

F a guy getting hired at ATN the same day I was hired at SWA making 2 years more in Longevity pay than me because he was on the cusp of upgrade (according to when I got hired upgrade was at 6 years - therefore I should be on the cusp now - but Mr SWA CEO gave up growth for the last three years because he knew he was buying some other company)

F the Negotiating Committees....

F the infighting...

F the fighting between pilot groups...

PROTECT SWA CULTURE AT ALL COSTs...

I WANT TO CONTINUE TO WORK AT A PLACE I LIKE AND RESPECT. Don't ******************** on our culture... (directed torwards ALPA, SWAPA and most of all SWA Leadership)

 

[Bwipilot]

The thing the AI pilots don't understand is much of the support the AIP receieve from SWAPA pilots was that is was initiated by the company. As a group, we built the place and don't bite the hand that feeds us.

Did a majority of SWAPA pilots like it enough to vote "Yes" ? We'll never know. One thing I do know is that the AIP will forever be a line in the sand. If Arby goes better for Airtran--there will be much consternation from SWAPA pilots and huge support to fence the Airtran pilots out of the SWA system/contract/you name it. If Arby goes better for SWAPA than the AIP, the SWAPA pilots will simply shrug their shoulders any time an AAI pilot complains.

Sir Staple Remover thinks he should get better--I hope he never does. It is personal that he thinks his 6 years at AAI equate to getting hired off the street by SWA. As many noted before, the same pilot would have dreamed to escape the AAI mess a year ago--but now wants relative seniority at SWA--YGTBSM. I hope the SWA FO who left AAI this past January to start fresh with SWA is rewarded for his decision--since it's what any rational pilot would've done sans a merger.

I was on the fence to vote "yes" or "no" a few days ago--mainly to get past this and get SWA moving forward. Now that it's going to Arby, a staple is now my hope. How do you like them apples?

 

[Fly-By-Cable]

Bwi, Welcome to the civilian world, you're about to be shocked.

 

[StopNTSing]

open time = seniority to get it...we were never offered seniority, just bottom filler seats.

If you think only the senior among us can get good open time trips, you've still got a lot to learn about our work rules, schedules and open time.

 

[nimtz]

Qualifier: I have read none of the above thread, but based on the title YAWN! Now back to our regularly scheduled FI 200+page thread where Sky Nazis oops I mean LUV drivers tell the Eastern scabs (even if born post 1974) they are blessed to smell their 1-2-3 induced farts. Seriously mods would it kill you to have a "One LUV" only forum?

 

[puddlejumper101]

The thing the AI pilots don't understand is much of the support the AIP receieve from SWAPA pilots was that is was initiated by the company. As a group, we built the place and don't bite the hand that feeds us.

Did a majority of SWAPA pilots like it enough to vote "Yes" ? We'll never know. One thing I do know is that the AIP will forever be a line in the sand. If Arby goes better for Airtran--there will be much consternation from SWAPA pilots and huge support to fence the Airtran pilots out of the SWA system/contract/you name it. If Arby goes better for SWAPA than the AIP, the SWAPA pilots will simply shrug their shoulders any time an AAI pilot complains.

Sir Staple Remover thinks he should get better--I hope he never does. It is personal that he thinks his 6 years at AAI equate to getting hired off the street by SWA. As many noted before, the same pilot would have dreamed to escape the AAI mess a year ago--but now wants relative seniority at SWA--YGTBSM. I hope the SWA FO who left AAI this past January to start fresh with SWA is rewarded for his decision--since it's what any rational pilot would've done sans a merger.

I was on the fence to vote "yes" or "no" a few days ago--mainly to get past this and get SWA moving forward. Now that it's going to Arby, a staple is now my hope. How do you like them apples?

Not everyone wants to work at SWA. We 6000 chose to work here, and SWA also hired us. The perspective we have is something only the 6000 of us understand. This place is not perfect but I bet 99.9% of the 6000 here if nothing else respects this company. I never said drank kool-aid, just respected this company. The BOD of SWA is highly respected around here, even when we disagree with their decisions, respect is never lost. To the outside world, it seems like we are arrogant, that's not true, just the only pilot group left with respect for their MGMNT. I think the 6000 of us were naive to think the Airtran pilots would understand this. It is obvious they don't. What happens next is anyone's guess...I guess this is why Herb wanted nothing to do with mergers.

 

[Victor120]

Well, Gentlemen, I look forward to the next edit of 'Hard Landings'.

 

[RLAblows]

open time = seniority to get it...we were never offered seniority, just bottom filler seats.

Today's vote was not 1% agenda as some of you said here. Majority of Us lobbied our MEC with emails and phone calls for over 2 weeks now to not send this one sided deal to the vote. Last night at MEC meeting an overwhelming majority took stand and demanded leadership and fair agreement.

To those of you gulping while reading union e-mail, know this... In it SWAPA just gave us ammo for the arbitration, admitting that your proposal was not about fair seniority, but about exchange of seniority for money. Arbitrator is gonna love your effort to bribe in what was supposed to be a "seniority integration" talks.

I seriously doubt it was the majority of the pilots who lobbied the MEC. Unfortunately I believe our pilot group once again was lazy and just assumed it would be sent to a vote. Most of the pilots I spoke with thought it would be too much of a liability for the MEC not to send it out for a vote. In turn they never sent an email or called to let their Rep know how they felt.

Not sending it out for a vote was misguided and wrong. Let the pilots make their own choice about their futures. If it gets voted down then you could truly say it was the will of the pilots.

 

[Pilot Knob]

They already said the remaining 6 weeks would be best spent preparing our side in arbitration. Elvis has left the building.

Yeah, but it was the bloated, sweaty Elvis. So...that's ok.