Airtran MEC voted no

[Sacha]

...Truckmasters I think it was.....

Better give that number to On Your Six. He is less than 300 from the bottom at Delta as the world continues to melt down financially. As I watch the financial news on the tube, I am reading posts from guys playing hardball with their careers and wonder if they are also as close to the bottom of the list as OYS. As the big picture of the world changes for the worse not just daily, but hourly, CEO's of all corporations especially airline CEO's like GK. and......DELTA'S.....CEO...will be taking a harder look at RISK. I don't care where you are on the list, we should all be holding our breath. Trying to "choke the Golden Goose" is just plain f'ing insane.

 

[DUBLINFLYER]

Great News for ALPA

AND AGAIN
More delay = more dues for ALPA, at $300K+ per month they let it last as long as possible and in the end they will leave the pilot group out in the cold to battle the elements as they always appear to do.

 

[Music]

With all do respect to everyone making threats, what purpose does it serve at this point? All of us at AT are well aware that it's a possibility and could happen (and may). How does it improve your position, especially since SWAPA says there will be no more negotiation until Arbitration. All I'm left with is that those that are making threats are either concerned with the outcome of arbitration, or you're just a 'school yard bully'.

Which is it?

 

[gt1900]

Its actually pretty easy to see who was getting the better end of this deal. Yes, some of the SWAPA guys didn't like it, but in the end, the BOD voted unanimously to pass this on to the pilots for a vote. The AAI MEC voted nearly unanimously to not pass this on to the pilots for ratification. I would of felt much better if at least a couple of the SWAPA BOD members thought this wasn't a good deal and voted no, and a couple more of the AAI MEC voted yes. As it is, it makes me realize even more just how bad this was for the AAI pilots. However, every single BOD member thought this was good for the SWAPA pilots, and thats why it passed unanimously. That alone should tell you something. Heck, even AAI's MEC had 1 guy who liked it. A real list won't need all the protections and fences for the AAI guys, and guaranteed upgrades for the SWA FO's. If that means renegotiating the rates on the 717, so be it. Pay rates are temporary, seniority is forever. If the economy tanks, and SWA management asks for pay cuts, the AAI pilots will take them just like the SWAPA pilots. Then what are the AAI pilots left with? The 30% loss in seniority for many of the AAI pilots is just to much for pay that can be gone tomorrow.

 

[GuppyWN]

If your guys don't want to use the remaining 6 weeks of mediation, that's unfortunate; it seems to me that this is actually an opportunity for your FO's to get some of the gains they were looking for.

Regards,

TW

Talk to ALPA. It's been almost a month since SWAPA voted yes to the agreement.

Don't displace your anger Ty.

Gup

 

[Ty Webb]

Talk to ALPA. It's been almost a month since SWAPA voted yes to the agreement.

Don't displace your anger Ty.

Gup

Not sure what you mean, Gup. I'm not angry, I'm being sincere. As I have been saying since the AIP came out, I think there are win/win changes that could be made, but it isn't up to me.

Regards,
TW

 

[ephull]

Thanks for posting the text of the email guys. As a former Tranny, I thought the deal was ridiculously biased toward AirTran. I was an emphatic NO voter. We'll see what happens now. Hopefully, our NC will go into arbitration and not try to give you guys the farm like they did with SL9.

A 32.5% loss of seniority and 650 FO' s stapled, and being hopelessly stuck on junior schedules and displaced continually to junior bases does not constitue "rediculously biased toward AirTran, my friend.

 

[CaptAntoineMack]

SL 8 now gives all the control to SWA and Swapa on pay rates and rules on integration. Alpa and its pilots will just have to watch and see with zero control.

It looks that 500 grand will be in the SWA pilots pockets now instead of Airtrans. Just like it should have been to begin with.

This has been played well. There has been an agreement without mediation. The reason for Swapa to go into full arbitration gear is because there is nothing to mediate. They are not going to waste any time and will go into arbitration well prepared with the best arbitration attorneys in the business.

Let the fun begin!

 

[jonjuan]

I'm confused, you and others said they hated this deal and wanted this to go to arbitration. I'm guessing you guys were just too scared to stand up to Daddy and say, "no"?

Isn't it funny? They all said they were voting it down because it was unfair. OK-Now when the other side votes no, they get their panties in a bunch? Someone's not telling the truth again.

 

[JT12345]

You should have seen the anguish today on the LECs faces. This is so hard for everyone here.

I think the SWAPA guys were out partying Saturday night after this was hashed out joying it up. The vote went quick for obvious reasons.

You know it is apples and oranges. I can see from the SWA side how good things are for you guys and what concerns you have. With your perspectives this deal was bad for some of you. From the AT perspective and what a lot of guys have been through in this industry to be this disappointed is a totally different perspective. I can't help but say that what was upsetting you guys was kind of surprising to us. Your MEC knew better. They must get out... outside the bubble overthere once in a while.

 

[DonVerita]

I hope so, but Mr Kelly's plans have been derailed by ALPA/AAI.

Really? Care to explain that missile of a statement?

GK has X number of planes in the new merged company that need to be flown. He has Y number of pilots to do that. Those planes will still get flown as the route planners put together the new network.

This is a seniority dispute between ALPA and SWAPA.

The planes still get flown either way by the combined pilot group and GK gets his synergies. One does not pay $1.4 Billion just to turn around and execute a scortched earth policy. He just has to wait a bit longer for a ISL. No big deal; it will happen either in Mediation or Arbitration, but it will happen. What's a couple of extra months in the overall grand scheme of things?

 

[Empennage]

With all do respect to everyone making threats, what purpose does it serve at this point? All of us at AT are well aware that it's a possibility and could happen (and may). How does it improve your position, especially since SWAPA says there will be no more negotiation until Arbitration. All I'm left with is that those that are making threats are either concerned with the outcome of arbitration, or you're just a 'school yard bully'.

Which is it?

Really? The airtran guys are making plenty of threats. Please.

 

[Music]

Really? The airtran guys are making plenty of threats. Please.

What threats?

Better seniority via arbitration? If that's a that's a threat, it's not a very good one honestly.

Whereas threatening our employment, now that's a threat.

Let's just be honest, okay.

 

[Muppets]

I wouldnt exactly be celebrating yet if I was a SWA pilot. This thing is getting sent back for another look at the SLI. It could be great for the SWA pilots or it could go the other way. I would wait on all the high fives in the break room.

 

[JT12345]

JT12345,

This is said with all due respect JT so please don't take offense.

There will be no more negotiations, end of story. Only arbitration.

I respectfully recommend any thought process that leaves open any further "negotiations" between ALPA/SWAPA/SWA as a possibility only sets expectations for something that is not possible.

Arbitration. I don't fear it and certainly your MEC doesn't either since that is the path they have chosen. Your membership may look back and say this was a great move on the part of the MEC or they may wish for the original proposal at some point down the road. That ship has sailed.

As for the outcome from that arbitration, that will begin a brand new chapter and one that is not clear on the final outcome for your pilots. The SWA pilots will remain as SWA pilots, the same can not be said with 100% certainty for AAI pilots. If your leadership has convinced you and others of something else, then I will simply say that is unfortunate.

Passage of the AIP would've given you that 100% certainty even if viewed as a less than desired. Everyone I've spoken to on the SWA side feel it was far less than desired also FYI.

I wish you and your family all the best. Fly safe,

Respectfully,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Hahb3NhwOM


Man,

We know exactly what is possible ahead of us. This was so bad you left us no other choice.

I really think because you work at SWA and have had it so good you have no idea what our disappointment is. It is just your experiences and that's ok.

____________________________

Actually a mediator gets involved now.... It is called mediated talks. What ever will be will be from it, but that is the next step. IF SWAPA chooses to avoid that step in the process it is up to them. How will that look?

The arbitrator can also accept a negotiated deal up until his ruling even if he already has one ready.

You can assume how things will go, but only ALPA and SWAPA will decide and the membership if a deal comes to a vote.



You know your 10% bump in seniority was destroying our way of life. Money is not everything. Selfish. I think arbitration will give us much better seniority and your lives wont change much. We will live happily ever after.

 

[FLB717]

Gentlemen

I want you all to think of one thing first. This SLI will more than not happen. And when we are all moving metal from FNT to OAK we will be in the same places. Your screen names will be known and faces attached as that is just how life happens. Do we need to be bastards to one another? GK didn't call any of us to make this decision. We fly aircraft nothing more, our pay goes up and it can come down. Lets not get full of ourselves like all the airlines that don't exist or have gone to bankruptcy. It can happen to us all. All of us should get over ourselves and look for a fair integration. and it seems we can't so a neutral will decide. Good for us good or bad it doesn't float from this point on. Please stop my CEO can beat up your CEO or what ever yo have to chunk across the line. We very likely will have to meet in the crewroom or bar, know you words follow you. I for one don't want the little girl behavior on FI to be how the world judges us. Do you?

 

[scarlet]

GK OFFER, please SWAPA ask GK to present this package as it would be better coming from him, than SWAPA !! Do you think GK/and TEAM sat in his office and said " lets see if we take 1678 and then the first guy at AT and then 4 to 1, then 7 to 1, then heck just staple the last 1200 guys? We will scare them to death and make them mad ! I will present but I am not paying for you guys type, no signing bonus of 15k-20k that Delta guys received. YOU GUYS will GAIN 15%, which is never done in mergers. You really think it came from GK?

Yeah lets forward some of these threats on to GK, the AJC, all of the media and see how the local people in the ATL, MCO, BWI, MKE feel about SWA pilots talking like this?

GROW UP !! Funny DL/NW guys never acted like this. You are not superior to anyone. You were born naked and broke and you will die naked and broke !

Would be a great way to come into ATL and layoff over 8000 employees.

I am sure Newnan, Peachtree City, ATL, Marietta, Kennesaw, all will be supportive of a company that lays off their neighbors and the once AT employess lose their house and don't pay property taxes and the local city then layoffs police, firefighters, teachers.... IE . SAINT LOUIS, MO=FEDERAL LAW came because this is what happened in STL.

 

[Kharma Police]

GK OFFER, please SWAPA ask GK to present this package as it would be better coming from him, than SWAPA !! Do you think GK/and TEAM sat in his office and said " lets see if we take 1678 and then the first guy at AT and then 4 to 1, then 7 to 1, then heck just staple the last 1200 guys? We will scare them to death and make them mad ! I will present but I am not paying for you guys type, no signing bonus of 15k-20k that Delta guys received. YOU GUYS will GAIN 15%, which is never done in mergers. You really think it came from GK?

Yeah lets forward some of these threats on to GK, the AJC, all of the media and see how the local people in the ATL, MCO, BWI, MKE feel about SWA pilots talking like this?

GROW UP !! Funny DL/NW guys never acted like this. You are not superior to anyone. You were born naked and broke and you will die naked and broke !

Would be a great way to come into ATL and layoff over 8000 employees.

I am sure Newnan, Peachtree City, ATL, Marietta, Kennesaw, all will be supportive of a company that lays off their neighbors and the once AT employess lose their house and don't pay property taxes and the local city then layoffs police, firefighters, teachers.... IE . SAINT LOUIS, MO=FEDERAL LAW came because this is what happened in STL.

Apparently you missed the part of the MC presentation when they described how bad Gary Kelly's (not SWAPA's) initial offer was. Here's a hint, it involved a staple of epic proportions. You think he is going to go to bat for us?, think again.

 

[PapaWoody]

GK OFFER, please SWAPA ask GK to present this package as it would be better coming from him, than SWAPA !! Do you think GK/and TEAM sat in his office and said " lets see if we take 1678 and then the first guy at AT and then 4 to 1, then 7 to 1, then heck just staple the last 1200 guys? We will scare them to death and make them mad ! I will present but I am not paying for you guys type, no signing bonus of 15k-20k that Delta guys received. YOU GUYS will GAIN 15%, which is never done in mergers. You really think it came from GK?

Yeah lets forward some of these threats on to GK, the AJC, all of the media and see how the local people in the ATL, MCO, BWI, MKE feel about SWA pilots talking like this?

GROW UP !! Funny DL/NW guys never acted like this. You are not superior to anyone. You were born naked and broke and you will die naked and broke !

Would be a great way to come into ATL and layoff over 8000 employees.

I am sure Newnan, Peachtree City, ATL, Marietta, Kennesaw, all will be supportive of a company that lays off their neighbors and the once AT employess lose their house and don't pay property taxes and the local city then layoffs police, firefighters, teachers.... IE . SAINT LOUIS, MO=FEDERAL LAW came because this is what happened in STL.

Not saying any of this could or couldn't happen, but IF it does, I'm sure that there will be plenty of evidence to show that the cause of it was a bunch of guys and girls who were never willing to admit to the realities of the situation, i.e. all the disparity between the two careers, and who basically turned their collective backs on a $50,000-$70,000 per year pay raise. Who do you think the anger of your neighbors will be focused on if that were to happen? How dare those mean old Southwest people come in and offer a better job and more money at a much more stable company. Not saying it will, not saying it should, just sayin'.

Respectfully,
PapaWoody

 

[OldManPilot]

Lets take a look at this. I still think it would be in everybody's interest to get this worked out without an arbitrator deciding our future. Who is an arbitrator anyway? Its a person who has no stake in the outcome. It is a person that listens to both sides present their case and he takes notes on what HE/SHE thinks is important. Reread the last sentence again. It is what HE/SHE thinks is important, not what AT or SWAPA thinks are important. Then when both sides are done, He/She will refer to the notes of what they think are important and use those to come up with an integrated list. Do you see how both sides lose control of the situation. I am not sure about how you feel, but I would sure like to see this settled by us, the pilots that have a true stake in the outcome. I still hope cooler heads prevail and this will work out for all of us.

 

[Kharma Police]

Lets take a look at this. I still think it would be in everybody's interest to get this worked out without an arbitrator deciding our future. Who is an arbitrator anyway? Its a person who has no stake in the outcome. It is a person that listens to both sides present their case and he takes notes on what HE/SHE thinks is important. Reread the last sentence again. It is what HE/SHE thinks is important, not what AT or SWAPA thinks are important. Then when both sides are done, He/She will refer to the notes of what they think are important and use those to come up with an integrated list. Do you see how both sides lose control of the situation. I am not sure about how you feel, but I would sure like to see this settled by us, the pilots that have a true stake in the outcome. I still hope cooler heads prevail and this will work out for all of us.

Why the F would SWAPA waste their time when they know whatever, "agreement" they make with us can after a month of delay be unilaterally turned down by 7 individuals with their own agenda? I don't blame them for saying, see you mofos at Arby's!!!!!

 

[FlyinGuy]

Ok, I'll start....

What are you AT pilots willing to give up to start off the talks?


That is what I thought.....nothing....

Well the same is for the SWA side.....nothing....

The turnip has been bled dry. It is not like we were close and a few sweeteners would cause both sides to say great let's do this thing. Mediation will be a stepping stone to arby....that is the path in the process agreement.

 

[slaquer5]

Lets take a look at this. I still think it would be in everybody's interest to get this worked out without an arbitrator deciding our future. Who is an arbitrator anyway? Its a person who has no stake in the outcome. It is a person that listens to both sides present their case and he takes notes on what HE/SHE thinks is important. Reread the last sentence again. It is what HE/SHE thinks is important, not what AT or SWAPA thinks are important. Then when both sides are done, He/She will refer to the notes of what they think are important and use those to come up with an integrated list. Do you see how both sides lose control of the situation. I am not sure about how you feel, but I would sure like to see this settled by us, the pilots that have a true stake in the outcome. I still hope cooler heads prevail and this will work out for all of us.

That would be nice. I am sure after seeing AT jerk GK and co. around for two weeks , it is obvious AT has a hidden agenda.

In other words, why would SWAPA waste our time talking to AT when it would be better spent talking to the SWAPA legal team and trying to work with the company(as we always do )

AT never had any intention of putting this out for a vote. How would you feel if you where GK ?

 

[Max Powers]

I feel for the uncertainity your pilots and in turn your fellow employees are facing now. We were on van the other night and one of your fellow AAI FAs whispered to my wife the contempt she had for the pilots for their resistance. She obviously felt her future was jeopardized by the decisions of the pilots. My wife just listened quietly but she was amazed at the anger.

I wish you all well and we'll see what happens next. Back to lurking and hoping there are no regrets on the AAI side in 6-12 months.

What a load of crap Mr. Chase. We are closer to a SLI then the FA are by a wide margin. Have they even started negotiating? And when are they set for mediation/arbitration? Me thinks we are well ahead of them. So even if this supposed FA said this - what basis in fact does she have for you to think it has merit? I think SWAPA has to face the cold hard facts my seniority is not for sale! Starting my 6th year and they want to staple me. No thanks. Why are you so afraid of an impartial 3 panel arbitration? Why do you think it is your right to force a SLI upon me with no recourse? No doubt if GK is not a man of his word and refuses to follow our CBA, which he in writing promised to, it will suck as we will be looking for work, but at least I will have my integrity which is something you will not have.

 

[texman]

Thanks, I appreciate it... good luck to us ALL. It's tough living in uncertain times, hopefully we all stay respectful of each other through the process. We are all but one vote individually in two airlines that will have to figure it out.

To your 2nd point, I remember your last negotiation wanted Scope at nearly all costs, and the deal was voted down very narrowly. When GK came back, there was less money on the table, but you got the Scope you wanted. Is that a fair synopsis?

I see this as a similar deal. We may get less money (717 rates may be less, but they're only here for 6-10 more years and guys will come off them and onto the 737 as they're retired), and we may not get your pay rates until we complete training (a delay of up to 2 years for some of our most junior pilots), but if there's better seniority for us out of it? It may be worth it.

Only time will tell...

Uh, Lear we dictate your longivity pay, your vacation, and your sick bank.

 

[waveflyer]

AT says we're afraid of arbitration- not really.
We don't like the cultural effect of a long drawn out SLI process and it's effect on other work groups-

What's not being talked about is that your lawyers and MC agreed to this SLI, and then your MEC denied your members a vote on it.
So the militant 1% is here saying the SLI sucked and that's predictable enough- but your guys denied your WHOLE GROUP a chance to vote.
That's not good.

If this sucked as bad as you say, why keep it from your group to vote???

You guys voted 95%+ to strike- if this were a bad deal, could you not trust them to vote their conscience? Or were you scared their conscience would say 'vote yes'?

And now the ever militant are lashing out while most SWAers are thanking them. Your future is doubt, ours- won't change much...
You just left $50-$70k per year and $2M/pilot on the table... Maybe you'll make it up in the market.

For the good among you- I'm sorry your leaders denied you a vote- our management is not pleased with that.

 

[puddlejumper101]

I wonder what it will be like after this is all said and done. We have a process agreement, a transition agreement,
has anyone started the "how to get over this" agreement? Once we are all joined (assuming we all end up in the same list), are we going to have a bondfire burning ALPA flags or something that will make us all forget this happened? I for one hope someone figures out how to do this because there is going to be tons of emotions on both sides reguardless of how it ends up. Before today I thought we could all co-exist without much heartburn, but now...I am not so sure anymore. Culture??? Boy did that take on a whole new meaning after today.

 

[jonjuan]

What a load of crap Mr. Chase. We are closer to a SLI then the FA are by a wide margin. Have they even started negotiating? And when are they set for mediation/arbitration? Me thinks we are well ahead of them. So even if this supposed FA said this - what basis in fact does she have for you to think it has merit? I think SWAPA has to face the cold hard facts my seniority is not for sale! Starting my 6th year and they want to staple me. No thanks. Why are you so afraid of an impartial 3 panel arbitration? Why do you think it is your right to force a SLI upon me with no recourse? No doubt if GK is not a man of his word and refuses to follow our CBA, which he in writing promised to, it will suck as we will be looking for work, but at least I will have my integrity which is something you will not have.

Bingo-mouth breathers like Chase, GupWn, Wave, and Red come here spouting off that they were planning to vote NO because it was detrimental to them. Perfect. NOW-they are apparently pissed off that the other group voted no ahead of them. Unbelievably laughable. Welcome to the ALPA beat down.

 

[puddlejumper101]

Apparently you missed the part of the MC presentation when they described how bad Gary Kelly's (not SWAPA's) initial offer was. Here's a hint, it involved a staple of epic proportions. You think he is going to go to bat for us?, think again.

Yeah I think he will definately go to bat for you guys, but he won't do anything until ALPA is way the F%^& in another time zone out of here. Let's face it, even if he wanted to bat for you guys, ALPA will step in with technicalities and mandates. I have often said as long as ALPA is there this was going to go to arbitration. What does ALPA have to loose right now? You guys are gone no matter what. Not to be a conspiracy theorist but ALPA's backbone is DAL and they would want nothing more than turmoil at SWA. As long as ALPA is around this thing it will not be easy.

 

[redflyer65]

AirTran votes against negotiated integration; SWAPA continuing preparation for arbitration


Fellow pilots -

ALPA has, through this vote, expressed that $3 BIL collectively and more than $2 MIL, individually, is not good enough for their group. Arbitration is simply the next step in this lengthy process.



Jacob North
Communications Chair
[email protected]

My favorite part of the email. I knew things would get interesting, but Wow! Looking forward to seeing how Gary and Herb handle this.

RF