Airtran gets into the RJ game

[FlyDeltasJets]

FlyDeltaJets:

1.) FYI - Your condescending tone and "quips" ARE insulting.

2.) Question rephrased and still stands... How much is DELTA paying you lately?

PS - I never would wish you or anyone bad fortune or furlough.. and I'm sure you have found employment.. good for you... my point remains.. Delta is NOT the end of the rainbow. You are not as astute as you apparantly think you are.

End of joust.

FL,

If you review this thread, you will see that my intention was never to enter a "joust." I have nothing against the pilots of AAI, and was truly trying to point out an irony, as it seems that some have the same view of the outsourcing of jobs as some DAL guys had long ago. I was making a point that we had not fared too well with it. For some reason, that set a few guys off. As is my want, I responded.

Secondly, I never said that DAL was the end of the rainbow. You might notice from some of my other posts that I am a bit upset with them right now! However, I remain proud to be a part of a pilot group who fought (and still fights) to raise the bar for the profession. That seemed to upset some people. Why, I am not sure.

My intention was never to insult. If one reads this thread without bias, I think that will become obvious. I wish that some of the respondants to my original post could say the same.

 

[jppt2000]

That's an astute observation FL, but I would ask you to back it up with a single time when I insuted anyone. You are free to use the search function to peruse my posts. When you find one, I invite you to quote it.

FDJ,

You have posted the same kind of whiney stuff on other posts on this site.

Yes, you do insult people who disagree with you.

I am proud to be a Delta pilot, and I am proud of what we have accomplised together.

Ummmmm, what have you accomplished?
350 million dollars loss for the last quarter?

Based on this thread alone, w/out further checking into you posts, you have a superiority complex in combination w/ a lack of confidence. Look at all the “I’s” & “me’s” in your posts, as opposed to “we” & “us” in any one of our FL’s guys' posts.

I'll save you some time folks, I got into it with FDJ last week about
Delta Connection and Mainline,
I told him his tone was condescending.

FDJ along with some of his Mainline buddies appears to be going through "country club" withdrawl syndrome.

I think it was a tremendous show of solidarity and professionalism
for AirTran pilots to take a paycut rather than furlough their brothers

FDJ, you will never see that kind of support from mainline DAL

 

[~~~^~~~]

Can we get back on topic? After all, calling a Delta pilot arrogant is like calling the Grand Canyon a ditch - it is an understatement. Delta hires "the best" and tells them they are "the best" so frequently that I about blow chunks every time a poorly acted training tape is put in the machine at flight safety. Delta has created their own monster.

These pilots have become the Pan Am pilots of a previous generation who refused to go to Delta because Delta was just some little Southern cropdusting outfit. Folks that feel "money equals merit" and anyone who does not have the money is somehow less of a pilot than they are.

Jeesh - now if I could get on topic.

FDJ - your codeshare has supported your growth. The economics of the airplanes are different. If you had not had codeshare your airline would not have grown and you would not have been hired in the first place.

Airtran will have to operate larger aircraft to make the RJ feed model work. The 717 just is not big enough and perhaps it is a range issue since the RJ will go farther, slightly faster.

However, alter ego will always harm labor. What is good for the airline is good for the pilot in the short term. But in the long term it will reduce your negotiating power. When Airtran wants to further raise the bar (aren't they already above Southwest?) it will be difficult with RJ's on the property - flown by another pilot group.

But think about this when yuou compare RJ to 717 numbers. The fact you can cram three RJ's in a gate reduces the effect of the cost per seat mile savings on the 717's. You get three times the number of flights for the same fixed costs and gate space. Something Delta figured out a long time ago and other airlines are just discovering...

We were told last week that Delta is not considering a 90 to 115 seat aircraft for this reason. You can not cram three 737-300's, or A319's, or 717's in one gate. The CRJ700 is the largest airplane that this parking plan can use. It turns out the shortage of gate space in ATL is another reason why the RJ works in the current environment. The next sized airplane that makes sense for DAL is a 150 seater, which is what you see if you look on the ramp.

Airtran's model is different, allowing them to operate a 717. But look for a push for larger jets at Airtran in the future after all of the inexpensive ex-TWA airplanes are bought up.

Of course there may be a lot of gate space coming open in Atlanta and the city was not happy that DAL secured the US Air leases. The city would like more of the gates to go to other airlines and it is my understanding Delta is about to let go of gates to cut costs. Whether these gates go to Connection (a shell game) of another airline is anyone's guess.

 

[surplus1]

FDJ

Originally posted by FlyDeltasJets It is pretty clear that our codesharing has presented us with some pretty big problems.

With this you might well have anticipated I would take issue. In the context of this thread, the only "problems" your domestic codeshare with regional jet operators has caused you are all of your own making as a pilot group.

In fact, the existence of large numbers of regional jets in the Delta system has been of significant help to the Company and, were it not for their existence, many more of your peers would be sharing your current fate and our Company would be in much more trouble than it already is.

While you know I disagree with outsourcing and therefore would have much prefered to see AirTran operate these RJs with their own aircraft and pilots, they are not in the same position that Delta has been and may be unable to do so at this time. Nevertheless, it may well make things difficult for the pilot group in the future.

At Delta, what you call the "problems" have come into existence because our "union" has influenced your group into joining its misguided effort to stop the RJ. Had you instead embraced your fellow pilots with their airplanes, you yourself and the other 932 of your fellows would be flying now in Delta airplanes. You've had more than one chance.

..... it seems that some have the same view of the outsourcing of jobs as some DAL guys had long ago.

The original "mistake" of permitting outsourcing was not made by DAL guys. It was made by other ALPA carriers (notably EAL, UAL, AAA, NWA and now CAL and emulated by AA -- in no particular order). In reality, the forward thinking of the "old DAL guys" (who placed no limit on RJs) allowed Delta to gain a market advantage that it still enjoys. The facts clearly indicate that the more than 250 RJs currently operating in the Delta system, have been nothing but a great benefit to the Company and incidentally, to all who fly Delta owned aircraft.

Your "problem", such as it is, results from the intransigence of "current DAL guys" who rejected the opportunity to integrate when the Company decided to buy back its outsourced flying, not from your original domestic codeshare.

As a direct result YOU, the Delta pilots, by following the misguided thinking of the union and the other "big five" non-thinking pilot groups, have managed successfully to put nearly 1000 Delta pilots on the street, further divide the union and create unnecessary animosity between fellow pilots, all of which has accomplished absolutely nothing of benefit to any Delta pilot, not to mention the debacle we are witnessing at USAir Group.

What you really need to worry about is not the proliferation of RJs, but the pending domestic codeshare with airlines that operate the very same equipment that Delta mainline operates. That however, your "current guys" (as opposed to your "old guys") appear willing to embrace. If you really believe you have "problems" now just wait until you begin to enjoy the fruits of that neat plan. It is quite likely to double the recall time of your unfortunate furloughs.

I wish you well but you really need to rethink the idea that RJs have contributed to your current status. They have not.

None of what I have written should be interpreted to mean that I believe the Air Tran decision will be of benefit to the AAI pilot group over the long term. I do believe it would have been better had they done this expansion "in house". We'll have to see how they handle the future.

While I do not think that you personally mean to disparage others, the truth is that in general the remarks of many in your pilot group do give the impression of an air of presumed superiority that many find unacceptable. Some take it, but others fight back. In general, Delta pilots tend to put themselves on a pedestal that others just don't recognize as warranted. As Fins pointed out, it is often reminiscent of the "white hats".

 

[Beechnut]

Can we get back on topic?

Good point ~~~^~~~, why don't we get back on topic. Or, if the topic is dead, leave the thread alone. The topic was talking about the future partnership of Air Tran and AirWis. You guys ruin far too many posts with your stupid bickering and insults. Then you go back an quote each other and prove how obnoxious the other side is. You guys need to start your own thread and leave us alone.

S.

 

[crosscut]

"Proud to be a part of a pilot group who puts positive, rather than negative, pressure on pilot salaries. Again I have the same 800 witnesses that would take a different stand. "
-------I would imagine that all 933 of us would not take a different stand.

“I know that you are happy that I secured such good employment.” I know 800+ pilots (soon to be 1,400, or, is it 1,700??) that would disagree with you.
--------933 so far. I am one of them. Again, please read the thread a bit more carefully. .

-I suppose it comes down to your own definition/interpretation of "positive."

-See, here we go again, you imply I'm the one NOT reading into it enough and not vice versa. Not a very objective or critical reasoning, wouldn't you agree? Sure we're both biased, as we should be, w/ differences of opinions - that what makes the world go around; but allow me now to ask you to do what you've asked of me & that's the review the thread and if you still think that your snobbery doesn't manifest itself in more ways than one w/ your inability to respect my side of the fence, then, even amongst your peers, you are in the minority.

 

[AAflyer]

If this guy thinks he is making "more than the most senior FL Capt" (in other words, over $200K) while he's on the street, well, then, he's not on furlough- he's on mental, err, I mean medical leave.

Would love to know how Aitran pays captains over 200K?
That is more than AA F-100,737-800, and S-80 captains.

Please expalin. I remember seeing your pay rates and can not figure how you make that much.

12 year AA captain on the 737-800 $185.26

185.26 @ 75 hours = $13,894.50 @ 12 = $166,734

185.26 @ 90 hours (is that what you gys fly?) = $16,762.50 @ 12
= $201,150 per year.

Holy cow!!!!!

AAflyer

Where canI get an app. I am not kidding. If it takes a few years to upgrade and you guys are making more than $30K than our captains, and no one is biting your heads off about how PILOTS wages are the fall of the airline business model, then I am real serious about applying.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

Beechnut,

I'll be happy to bow out after a couple of points. They are in no particular order because I don't care to quote anyone. They are also not addressed to their intended targets. I hope that those reading will know which paragraph is addressed to which person.

#1. If you really want to get back to the "point," it might help if you don't spend the next two paragraphs insulting an entire pilot group. If we mainliners stereotyped you the way you do us, you'd have a fit. As it is, many of you, when you run out of arguments, fall back on the old standby: insulting and stereotyping us. I am glad that my arguments are strong enough that I don't have to resort to that.

#2. Those who laud AAI guys for giving up salary forget a few things (no matter how many times they are reminded).
a: The furloughees do not support concessions. I would rather be furloughed and come back to an intact contract than follow the tired strategy of giving our hard-earned money away without a plan. I would be more than happy to give concessions if they were needed to save the company. I will not, however, fund another ill-concieved price war.
b: Mgt has not asked for concessions.
c: Fred Reid has stated (to me) that concessions would not save any pilot jobs. His opinion was that if the company only needed a certain amount of pilots, they would only keep a certain amount of pilots.
d: You don't have to convince me of AAI guy's willingness to accept lower pay. That doesn't impress me. That kind of "support" I can do without.
e: They are not "raising the bar" and they are not "higher than LUV."
f: Keep in mind. When we accept concessions, many others will be forced to follow or they would lose the cost advantage which is allowing their growth.

#3. I am not "whining" when I express concern that the new generations of airlines which compete by paying their employees less establishes very bad precedent that will affect all of us. It concerns me just as much that the majority of posters on a pilot's board seem content to ignore that threat. As a matter of fact, it seems most condemn those who fight for higher pilot salaries, not lower.

#4. The PID would not have been some magic pill that would force mgt to merge the lists. There are those on this board who seem to think that mgt would happily give up a huge cost advantage just because we passed a PID. Has AMR done it? Does it look like they will?

#5. Our fleet size today is roughly what it was in '95. Those who think that rjs have created such huge growth for us might be only thinking of their side of the fence. While they have helped our bottom line, I would have much preferred that we had captured all of the growth that they represent by only allowing mgt to fly them at mainline. My "what could go wrong" comment poked fun at our mistake, at the same time warning the AAI guys. Unfortunately, some thin-skinned people decided that was an insult, and responded in kind.

#6. Those who constantly remind me that the problems we (DAL pilots) face are our own doing can stop. I have never blamed anyone but ourselves. An lesson that some of you would be well-advised to follow.

#7. Some of you guys sound like the biggest bunch of wusses I have ever heard. Perhaps it is an inferiority complex, perhaps it is something else, but you guys sound like a bunch of little girls. "They are so arrogant!" "He didn't say hello to me in the terminal!" "He said something mean to me on the radio!" Have you ever stopped to think that the animosity might come from every message board on the internet being filled with guys calling us arrogant? Do you think it might be a little intellectually lazy to blame all of our decisions on our huge egos?

I invite all of you to go back an reread threads concerning DAL. Count how many posts insult our entire pilot group. Than do the same for the posts which insult yours. I venture to say that your insults far outnumber ours. I also believe that we have shown substantial restraint in not responding to the seemingly endless put-downs.

There are some serious threats on the horizon for airline pilots. They include (but are not limited to):
a: Very serious pressures put on all of our salaries due to the rapid growth of lower paying airlines.
b: The outsourcing of the few higher paying jobs left to lower wage carriers.
c: A legal attack on the one thing we have designed to prevent (or at least limit) "b" from occuring.
d: consolidation, bankruptcies, and other market forces.

I enjoy aviation and I enjoy the business. I also like to discuss possible solutions to the above. That is why I sign on. However, it seems that many on this board seem to think that their way is the only way, and those who disagree with them do so only because of ego or greed. That attitude is not very conducive to rational discussion, but perhaps I will try it. It seems to be the accepted method on this board.

I have never intentionally insulted an entire group. If it's all the same to you guys, I would much prefer to stay away than to sink to that level. I'll leave this thread to those of you who are content to sit around in their underwear and whine about every one of those egotistical Delta pilots. Have fun. Maybe when you are finished you can poke fun at other stereotypes, most of which also have no basis in fact.

 

[FL717]

AAFlyer: Your math is correct, and the statement made regarding senior AirTran Captain pay is also correct. This month I actually flew (block) 85 hours, but got paid (credit) for 93. This is due to trip and duty rigs that I'm sure most everyone understands. We have a few of the top pay rate Captains that are CheckAirman and they get an override to the top pay that they are at. I do not have an exact figure on that override.. but their pay is around 155.00 with it (using 30.00 added to their base). They can easily get 105 (credit) hours for the month.. many times more. Using this calculates to 16,300 a month X 12 = 195,000 an year plus approx 6,000 perdiem = 201,000 annual. This is a absolute maximum. I know one of these guys and he has to bust his hump to get this.. but it is possible. 170,000 is a very easily obtained salary for the senior non CheckAirman pilots. I'm sure there are senior AA pilots that work the system and get max pay - last day.

FlyDeltaJets: I will digress and give you the benefit that you are realistic in your thoughts and attitudes, and maybe... I just don't get it, and move on to another topic. You really are a card carrying ALPA member, because I'm really trying to see your point of view.. but can't right now.

 

[surplus1]

The bottom line of all this debate seems really to be quite simple.

A. AirTran has entered into a code share agreement with Air Wisconsin.

B. Those AAI pilots writing here seem to be satisfied with that agreement and approve of its having been made.

C. The AAI pilots belong to their own independent labor union and are therefore able to set and follow those agendas that are exclusively of interest to AAI pilots in the manner they see fit. Bravo for them!

I suggest we congratulate them and leave them to make their own decisions. They are obviously happy with what they are doing and after all said and done, they have a right to choose thier own way.

Good luck to you AAI, I wish you tailwinds.