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AirTran Alaska merger

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Kharma Police said:
Yes, they make money yet still furlough pilots, go figure. They have a monopoly on some routes in Alaska and Seattle, tell me how they are doing in LAX. If Delta or Southwest wanted to make their lives miserable they could in a heartbeat. Delta could drop the code share and spool up the NWA operations in SEA and ANC. They have already started to ramp up their operations on the west coast. Look what happened with Midwest when they didn't adapt to the changes in the playing field. Heck, Mesa could set up shop in ANC like they did in Hawaii, it didn't take them long to run Aloha out of business. Alaska Air can keep plodding along the same course and keep making hay while the sun is shinning but the winters up north in the future will keep getting longer and darker. In my opinion they will have to merge with someone.
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You just proved you know nothing about Alaska.
 
QCappy said:
You just proved you know nothing about Alaska.
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DL and AK seem to get more and more close everyday. I think AK is moving to terminal 6 at LAX, right next to DL in 5 and part of 6. I think Horizon (owned by AK) just sold ASA some CR7s....maybe a coincidence, maybe not??? You just never know.....maybe AK and DL like the situation they have right now. But, if someone makes a move at AK, then maybe DL would try to protect that "friendship..." USAir made CAL make a move for UAL, so maybe someone else will do the same for AK....


Bye Bye---General Lee
 
Kharma Police said:
Yes, they make money yet still furlough pilots, go figure. They have a monopoly on some routes in Alaska and Seattle, tell me how they are doing in LAX. If Delta or Southwest wanted to make their lives miserable they could in a heartbeat. Delta could drop the code share and spool up the NWA operations in SEA and ANC. They have already started to ramp up their operations on the west coast. Look what happened with Midwest when they didn't adapt to the changes in the playing field. Heck, Mesa could set up shop in ANC like they did in Hawaii, it didn't take them long to run Aloha out of business. Alaska Air can keep plodding along the same course and keep making hay while the sun is shinning but the winters up north in the future will keep getting longer and darker. In my opinion they will have to merge with someone.
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Well we all know what opinions are like. Anyway, I digress. ALK stock is almost at $50 a share....up from $15/change a year ago. Not really affordable anymore.
 
gt1900 said:
Exactly. Key west is a joke. Yet AAI guys were up in arms about flying into it when we announced it. I find it interesting that you have so much Mt experience yet you think that the approach is the hard part. If you don't think there is a different mentality with AAI pilots and ALA pilots then you are sorely mistaken! Fly the RNP approach, or departure into Juneau through the Gastina Channel, then get back to me. The flying that AAI does is simple everyday flying with not a single tough airport to fly into, and ZERO mountains. ALA flys into some of the toughest jet airports in the world. Youve flown in Alaska, youve seen what can happen in the winter when a storm brews. We have nothing that comes even close to that in the lower 48. I had a Cpt get very, very nervous in ROC when they were reporting 200-1/2 with snow and winds gusting to 30 with fair breaking action. Thats a pretty regular occurance for the guys at Alaska!

AAI flys scheduled trips to exactly 4 international destinations. Cancun, Aruba, Montego Bay, and Nasau. WOW!!!!! Alaska Airgroups flys to 15, of which Alaska flys to 10 I believe. Not a lot, but far more then AAI. Throw in 4 Hawaii destinations from 6 different cities and we arent exactly talking the same type of flying. Heck, we don't even have rafts on our planes. Imagine half of our F/A's if they had to get their hair wet in water training!
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So, in this discussion of a merger, explain to me exactly WHAT relevance, if any, the above diatribe has towards whether any worthwhile "synergies" would exist? That *WAS* the original thread topic, incidentally...

Obviously the route structures would compliment (East/West) and, again, the flying is flying is flying. The end. Period. I have faith in my brethren at AirTran that they could cross-train to AL ops and ETOPS without issue, so that is a COMPLETE non-issue for the merits of this discussion.

Just trying to get this thread back on track from where it jumped the shark so explain to me, how exactly, the differences in flying have ANYTHING to do with the financial reasons a merger might or might not happen, because that's the ONLY reason this would, or wouldn't, come to fruition...
 
This has been a fun read. All I know, is that the flying we do through out the winter would make most UAL pilots puke, call in sick and go home. If I have not seen your AXS sitting next to me, then your opinions about working the Arctic and Southeast in the winter mean less than squat to me. If you are not there, then you have no idea. That being said, this has been an intertaining read - just don't dish the MUDHEN ! (may the good Lord rest her soul) :)
 
Lear70 said:
Not that I think it will happen, but the Alaska flying isn't all that more challenging than any other mountainous terrain flying, just a different method of flying the approach.
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I understand what you're saying about the approaches...but I hope you're not on the negotiating committee.

Make no mistake about it...no other US airline does what Alaska pilots do on a daily basis with the frequency we do as compared to a percentage of our operation. Yes - everybody has a Quito...but I also know that many pilots at the other airlines bid around their "Quitos" and avoid it for entire careers. There is no avoiding Ketchikan or Juneau if you are an Alaska pilot. And it's not JUST Juneau or Ketchikan...it's Wrangell, Petersburg, Cordova, Sitka, Gustavus...oh, and we fly to Orange County, Boston, Burbank, and DC to. I just did a Kodiak turn the other day ...the field was 800/3, BRAG, 13 knot direct tail wind onto a 7000 foot strip flying straight into a valley (can't fly the other way because the airport is in a valley). That was plenty of adrenaline (this was a beautiful day for Kodiak) AND I LOVED IT! You've got to love that kind of flying to work for Alaska --- and we should be compensated accordingly --- saying that flying into Kodiak or Juneau or Ketchikan is no different than flying into Denver, RNP or not, is doing us a disservice and could not be further from the truth.

To be clear. I'm not saying that there aren't pilots at other airlines that would do a fantastic job flying in SE or the Arctic...and enjoy it...but there are also ones that wouldn't and they get weeded out pretty quickly...mostly by self-selection.(i.e. they don't even apply) I use to fly with Captains at a previous airline that called in sick every time it snowed...I don't expect to see any of them around these parts anytime soon.

As far as any airline buying Alaska, I think the only two realistic possibilities (if any) are American or Delta. Delta and American are so dependent on us for the West Coast feed there is no way either one would allow Alaska to hook up with another airline and put there West Coast feed in jeopardy. Southwest might be an outside shot but acquisitions are not part of their normal MO so I would be very surprised.
 
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Oh there's no arguing you guys do an awesome job in flying that *some* pilots definitely *WOULD* avoid for their entire career if they could. Could they be trained to do it and do it safely? Sure. Otherwise NO ONE would be doing it... but those pilots prefer not to, and that's fine.

There's also no arguing that AK pilots do that type of flying more often than just about anyone else. Your safety record in completing those flights speaks for itself, wasn't trying to marginalize what you do... I've been to Juneau, Ketchikan, and even way the hell out to Sitka - I think the weather perpetually sucks up there, or I just have the bad luck to get out there on days it does. Gets your attention, that's for sure.

I'm just saying that, from a merger / buyout point of view, I simply don't believe it's a sticking point, as the original poster who brought up the "type" of flying ALK does as being somehow related to whether or not a deal would be worthwhile.
 
igneousy2 said:
I just did a Kodiak turn the other day ...the field was 800/3, BRAG, 13 knot direct tail wind onto a 7000 foot strip flying straight into a valley (can't fly the other way because the airport is in a valley).
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You don't have a 10 Knot tailwind limitation?????
 
Data said:
WOW! An F..A..A approved departure where we turn left right after takeoff and then turn right and fly back over the runway! That must take weeks to learn in the sim! Do they let the FOs fly that departure?
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Actually, we don't do the Lemon Creek departure anymore. I think someone got rolled pretty good by turbulence and almost got a very close look at some granite. Not easy or for the weak of heart.
 
Kharma Police said:
Yes, they make money yet still furlough pilots, go figure. They have a monopoly on some routes in Alaska and Seattle, tell me how they are doing in LAX. If Delta or Southwest wanted to make their lives miserable they could in a heartbeat. Delta could drop the code share and spool up the NWA operations in SEA and ANC. They have already started to ramp up their operations on the west coast. Look what happened with Midwest when they didn't adapt to the changes in the playing field. Heck, Mesa could set up shop in ANC like they did in Hawaii, it didn't take them long to run Aloha out of business. Alaska Air can keep plodding along the same course and keep making hay while the sun is shinning but the winters up north in the future will keep getting longer and darker. In my opinion they will have to merge with someone.
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Mr. Kharma Police, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
 
scottm said:
Mr. Kharma Police, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
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Wow, I didn't know you could "hear me" over the internet. Too bad you didn't hear what I just called you........
 
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Lear70 said:
So, in this discussion of a merger, explain to me exactly WHAT relevance, if any, the above diatribe has towards whether any worthwhile "synergies" would exist? That *WAS* the original thread topic, incidentally...

Obviously the route structures would compliment (East/West) and, again, the flying is flying is flying. The end. Period. I have faith in my brethren at AirTran that they could cross-train to AL ops and ETOPS without issue, so that is a COMPLETE non-issue for the merits of this discussion.

Just trying to get this thread back on track from where it jumped the shark so explain to me, how exactly, the differences in flying have ANYTHING to do with the financial reasons a merger might or might not happen, because that's the ONLY reason this would, or wouldn't, come to fruition...
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Don't ask me. You were the one who said Alaska flying isn't much more difficult then the flying we do at AAI. I just told you that you were full of it and had no idea what you were talking about. Same thing with comparing AAI's international ops with ALA's. ALA has a lot more internationl flying with over 3X's as many internatioanl destinations as AAI.

Like I said before. ALA's business plan wouldn't work with AAI's flying. AAI makes money simply because they are CHEAP, in very competitive markets. Alaska makes money with EAS, Cargo, and by having a very good customer base that loves them (even though there has been major changes in the last 5-10 years). Alaska has made it very hard for other airlines to come in and compete on the west coast. Its easier for DAL and AMR to use them as a code share partners, rather then to compete with them. Trust me, Id love to see the merger happen more then anything, but I also know how unlikely it is. ALA would be the purchaser, and there business plan wouldn't work on AAI routes.
 
gt1900 said:
Don't ask me. You were the one who said Alaska flying isn't much more difficult then the flying we do at AAI. I just told you that you were full of it and had no idea what you were talking about. Same thing with comparing AAI's international ops with ALA's. ALA has a lot more internationl flying with over 3X's as many internatioanl destinations as AAI.
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It was in response to Z-Pilot's statement in post #4 in case you missed it.

And anyone that thinks the TYPE of flying and whether it's more challenging or not makes a D*MN bit of difference when two carriers decide to integrate needs to take a reasonable suspicion test or is so far out of touch with aviation reality as to need their head checked by a licensed professional...
 
gt1900, feel free to repost without the cursing (or clever ways to hide the cursing). You're free to express the fact that you believe I'm full of crap, but use a different word than the one you chose to remain in line with the ToS.

/mod
 
Love it how you delete a thread that calls you out! CLASSIC!

I said your full of it (insert word). You claimed AAI's flying was not that much different then ALA's. Im assuming from the previous threads that you now know you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. You also claimed AAI had more international flying then ALA. Again, you have no idea what you are talking about. AAG flys to over 3X's as many international destinations as AAI and ALA flys to at least 2X's as many! The flying can't even be compared. Nuff said!
 
gt1900 said:
I had a Cpt get very, very nervous in ROC when they were reporting 200-1/2 with snow and winds gusting to 30 with fair breaking action. Thats a pretty regular occurance for the guys at Alaska!
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Ahnah,

Did the "Cpt" pee himself or throw up on on you ? Thankfully you were there to save the day.

The AirTran 'management' team are ex US Air and they have the taint :D of that airline all over them. Merging with Airtran management would be like marrying the company bike or a Tijuana hooker.
 
Lear70 said:
It was in response to Z-Pilot's statement in post #4 in case you missed it.
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Apologies. It was not my intention to flame up a thread with focusing on: "our pilots are better than your pilots" issue.

My intention is to point out revenue, and experience...all while making profit.

For instance, flying cargo in the state of Alaska is unique, as everything has to be flown into most of the interior Alaska. Alaska Airlines knows how to do this profitably, and knows how to do this year-round.

As far as challenging flying, anyone is capable of learning it. However, there are increased training expenses related to flying in Southeast Alaska, and interior Alaska. There are special qualifications, and IOE is longer, because one trip has to be through SE, and another trip in the Arctic. Again, Alaska can manage that profitably.

That's really all I was saying way back on page one. Both carriers have a unique niche market, and has figured out how to operate profitably in their own back yards.

With all that said, airline executives' greed easily overcome any real or "spin machine" synergies.
 
gt1900 said:
Love it how you delete a thread that calls you out! CLASSIC!
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Yes, right before I posted an OPEN INVITATION for you to repost it without the cursing. Classic, I'm sure... But why am I not surprised you missed the obvious; you've been doing that since you got hired.

I said your full of it (insert word). You claimed AAI's flying was not that much different then ALA's. Im assuming from the previous threads that you now know you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. You also claimed AAI had more international flying then ALA. Again, you have no idea what you are talking about. AAG flys to over 3X's as many international destinations as AAI and ALA flys to at least 2X's as many! The flying can't even be compared. Nuff said!
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No, I never claimed AAI had *MORE* international flying than ALA, I said that AAI had a lot of their own international flying and, again, international flying is international flying.

If you have such a hard-on for ALA, maybe you should go there to work. I personally don't care where I work as long as the paycheck and days off are worth my while. The flying is NOT that difficult... challenging? Sure. Outright hard? No, not really, and I'd put our pilots right up there in the same capabilities as any other airline's crew members. With the proper training, AirTran pilots could fly ALA ops just as safely as anyone else. THAT was the point you keep missing, even though I keep smacking you over the head with it.

Sorry you don't feel the same about your coworkers. Why don't you go down to ops and voice your opinion about how sub-par our pilots are compared to ALA pilots. I'm sure you'll get a warm response. Just like back when you were supporting management when you first got here...
 
Z_Pilot said:
Apologies. It was not my intention to flame up a thread with focusing on: "our pilots are better than your pilots" issue.

My intention is to point out revenue, and experience...all while making profit.

For instance, flying cargo in the state of Alaska is unique, as everything has to be flown into most of the interior Alaska. Alaska Airlines knows how to do this profitably, and knows how to do this year-round.

As far as challenging flying, anyone is capable of learning it. However, there are increased training expenses related to flying in Southeast Alaska, and interior Alaska. There are special qualifications, and IOE is longer, because one trip has to be through SE, and another trip in the Arctic. Again, Alaska can manage that profitably.

That's really all I was saying way back on page one. Both carriers have a unique niche market, and has figured out how to operate profitably in their own back yards.

With all that said, airline executives' greed easily overcome any real or "spin machine" synergies.
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Great post, sorry I misunderstood the intent. Happens on FI... :beer:

I'm certain the ALA pilots will continue to make ALA profitable doing their jobs safely and professionally as they always have. It's certainly challenging up there (these days I'm doing it in a 20-series Lear without EGPWS or TAWS, which sucks), but the challenge *does* make it fun at the same time versus doing YIP-LRD 4 times a week (boring, but still pays the bills). :)
 
lear70 said:
no, i never claimed aai had *more* international flying than ala, i said that aai had a lot of their own international flying and, again, international flying is international flying.
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oooooppppssssyyyyyyy! I think someone just steped on their junk!

Im so confused. In one post you say that AAI has more international ops then ALA, on another you say they don't. Which is it?
 
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