"Airline types need not apply"

[Redtailer]

This guy on the company EFB committee actually told me that no one was currently putting Jepps directly onto the display tubes. He got really offended when I showed him a picture of a G450/550/Falcon7x/Global Fusion cockpit. His answer to the batt life issue on the Ipad was to have every airline guy carry around a 100 hour mill spec battery with their Ipad. When I refereed him to the FAA's advisory circular on EFB's he actually had the balls to tell me and I quote, that does not apply to us. I told him that the we are smarter then the FAA attitude hasn't worked in the past (in fact its what was getting people killed around here)

Thats just one small sampling, that union is so far removed from reality that it's not even funny.

That sounds like AA. Hope you are not judging airline guys by their example... Their union guys are so screwed up they believe they invented the airplane. Can't tell them any different. Who was it that was still setting their altimeters so they read zero on landing up until a few years ago?

Your message is just as condescending though. Most of the tech stuff you have pointed out is applicable to newer aircraft and is taught at flight safety. I think just as many airline pilots can get it as corporate pilots. It's not rocket science. That's like me saying that we shouldn't hire corporate pilots because they only know how to fly with the help of EFIS and A/T. They shouldn't be hired because they can't handle flying a DC-9 to Cat II minimums with only 2 Vors and 1 NDB. Not to mention they would have trouble with a raw data NDB approach.

 

[BoilerUP]

For somebody who professes to be tired of the "my job is better than your job" stone throwing, you're sure chucking your fair share, Redtailer...

 

[Redtailer]

How long ago were your 135 days?

Again, yet another pretty off-the-wall view of corporate aviation from the mighty Boeing cockpit.

No corporate operation I know (even the low end 135 outfits) tolerate busting minimums or flying VFR in clouds for chrissakes.

Rest assured - Airline pilots are not shunned in the corporate world because of their commitment to Safety.....

Are you kidding? Just look around the FI boards. Heck I think in this thread alone there were some folks talking about busting mins for the boss. You are living in lala land if you believe that's not going on in the corporate world. How many accident reports do you read about that have corporate jets launching VFR to pick up IFR in the air and finding themselves in the soup before picking up the IFR clrc? That was one guy I flew with personally that did it on purpose. Do you really think he is the only one? He learned it from somewhere. Aspen has a few marks on the hills from a Gulfstream or two from folks busting mins. Actually you could probably substitute any of the mountain airports for that.

I have heard more than a few comments about airline pilots commitment to safety on the GA ramp. Actually, the best one was "Airline guys are such wimps, they are constantly looking for smooth air and can't take a few bumps." I didn't have it in me to explain to him that the reason they are always looking for smooth air is not for their comfort, but for the safety of the flight attendents that are standing up in the back trying to serve hot coffee and such. After a few good bumps they WILL be calling up complaining.

Airline pilots are shunned for different reasons, but I go back to what I said earlier. There is no statistical proof that if a department hires a GA guy over an airline guy that the person will work out better. The airline guy just gets flagged when he doesn't work out and the story gets perpetuated throught the corporate community. If a GA guy is let go for the same reasons then little or nothing is said because he can't just be lumped in with a particular group.

If you have a flt department of at least 6 or 7 guys you cannot tell me at least 1 of them is not performing like the others. Now if the one is an airline guy then everyone throws up their hands and say "It's because he is too good for his job." If not then it usually goes "He is just lazy."

 

[Redtailer]

For somebody who professes to be tired of the "my job is better than your job" stone throwing, you're sure chucking your fair share, Redtailer...

Not stone throwing just being honest about what goes on. The airlines have their issues too. There are plenty of stones to be thrown at them too. I am just getting rid of all of the generalizations. Many of which are false.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Are you kidding? Just look around the FI boards. Heck I think in this thread alone there were some folks talking about busting mins for the boss. You are living in lala land if you believe that's not going on in the corporate world. How many accident reports do you read about that have corporate jets launching VFR to pick up IFR in the air and finding themselves in the soup before picking up the IFR clrc? That was one guy I flew with personally that did it on purpose. Do you really think he is the only one? He learned it from somewhere. Aspen has a few marks on the hills from a Gulfstream or two from folks busting mins. Actually you could probably substitute any of the mountain airports for that.

I have heard more than a few comments about airline pilots commitment to safety on the GA ramp. Actually, the best one was "Airline guys are such wimps, they are constantly looking for smooth air and can't take a few bumps." I didn't have it in me to explain to him that the reason they are always looking for smooth air is not for their comfort, but for the safety of the flight attendents that are standing up in the back trying to serve hot coffee and such. After a few good bumps they WILL be calling up complaining.

Airline pilots are shunned for different reasons, but I go back to what I said earlier. There is no statistical proof that if a department hires a GA guy over an airline guy that the person will work out better. The airline guy just gets flagged when he doesn't work out and the story gets perpetuated throught the corporate community. If a GA guy is let go for the same reasons then little or nothing is said because he can't just be lumped in with a particular group.

If you have a flt department of at least 6 or 7 guys you cannot tell me at least 1 of them is not performing like the others. Now if the one is an airline guy then everyone throws up their hands and say "It's because he is too good for his job." If not then it usually goes "He is just lazy."

Remember Pops - Safety minded Airline Pilots plant em' into mountains in Columbia just as easy as Corporate Cowboys do in Aspen...some airline gods even takeoff on the wrong runways, some skid of snowy runways and kill kids, some even fly drunk.

Hop off that perch.

Where's this comparison going? nowhere. It dosen't matter. The individual does - not his chosen career path.

Maybe some airline guys just get a bad rep because they have a hard time getting along with others, can't adapt easily.....and really, really lack a sense of humor?

 

[BoilerUP]

I am just getting rid of all of the generalizations. Many of which are false.

What you fail to realize is you're airing PLENTY of generalizations about corporate pilots and corporate operations...many of which are ALSO false.

Yes, there are some cowboys out there that are more mission than safety-oriented....a very small and ever-dwindling number of people that make up a mere fraction of the corporate pilot population.

Yes, there HAVE been some accidents & incidents out there where corporate or charter pilots have done stupid things - the G3 in Aspen busting minimums, LR60 @ CAE that tried to abort after V1, the G2 at HOU that had the wrong frequency tuned, the Challengers not getting deiced seemingly everywhere, etc.

...but there also have been some accidents & incidents where airline pilots have done stupid things - attempted landing in microbursts, flying good airplanes into the ground, "4-1-0ing it dude", incompetent stall recoveries, not controlling the plane on a crosswind takeoff, etc.

BOTH segments have their operational warts - but you sure seem to be insinuating that corporate pilots as a group aren't safe and that's just as ignorantly wrong as corporate pilots saying airline pilots as a group make bad corporate pilots.

Yes, there are folks in the corporate world that have an ignorant, naive, stupid bias against airline pilots not founded on any type of fact. There's also folks that had an airline guy (typically furloughed) get hired after claiming they'd stay forever then bolted back to their airline job at their first opportunity, causing for better-or-worse the "reptuation" you're trying to disprove.

Let's face it - pretty much any pilot can fly pretty much any type of airplane, in pretty much any type of weather, in pretty much any country of the world. Airline pilots "do more with less" in terms of equipment; corporate pilots "do more with less" in terms of flight support.

Each segment is vastly different with greatly differing reasons for operating...comparing them for anything other than flying airplanes Point A to B is stupid.

 

[Sandhawk]

......

 

[Redtailer]

Both airline and corporate pilots have their fair share of accidents. My point was the fact that more times than not when there is an accident involving a GA aircraft it's usually due to a culture in that particular flight department. I said it before, there are great pilots and bad pilots on both sides. It's a matter of corporate safety culture that determines whether or not accidents happen.

The best way I have ever heard it explained was in AOPA magazine about a pilot that pushes the limits in GA. Eventually the pilot learns that he can fly below mins or launch in to marginal VFR to pick up IFR enroute. This pilot may never have an accident in his career, but eventually becomes CP or DO at a flight department. His rationale goes along the lines of "I did it safely so it is safe. I have never had an accident so you should be able to do it." That's where the problem comes in. Left unchecked that's how the culture of "Get the mission done" comes from. Most pilots in general will not go along with that thinking, but airline pilots specifically will be weeded out because they know airline pilots would raise a stink. Chances are that those are not the only regs being broken. Are the legends of Kalitta's 135 days not tales of lore? He is not alone.

I think across the board pilots from one side can do the job of the other can do it if they want. I have been on both sides of the fence. Had a blast flying corporate and 135. The real question is whether the company has a good safety culture and that's where the differences lie. With the airlines being villified by congressmen whose flights were delayed, lost bags or very public accidents the airlines are constantly under a microscope in regards to safety. Corporate flight departments are not under that same scrutiny. ISBAO is the equivalent of "OOooohh shiny." Lots of work to get, but ultimately means nothing.

Most departments are good, but some are just down right awful. Any airline guy going to fly corporate can do the job if he has decent work ethic and the job is explained to him before he is hired. Some jobs require that the pilot washes the airplane. I know a lot of corporate guys that won't do that. How long would a corporate guy stick around if he is pilot, aircraft washer/cleaner and lav dumper with mediocore pay? If he leaves then nobody says too much. If it's an airline guy they say we they made a mistake of hiring the airline guy.

Incidentally, one 135/91 dept I worked for had 15 pilots. 6 were former airline and we really didn't have any problems. Go figure. How many furloughed airline guys are there flying in the fractionals?

My whole point being that this whole business of saying that a department should not hire airline guys because of x,y,z is just BS.

 

[G4G5]

That sounds like AA. Hope you are not judging airline guys by their example... Their union guys are so screwed up they believe they invented the airplane. Can't tell them any different. Who was it that was still setting their altimeters so they read zero on landing up until a few years ago?

Your message is just as condescending though. Most of the tech stuff you have pointed out is applicable to newer aircraft and is taught at flight safety. I think just as many airline pilots can get it as corporate pilots. It's not rocket science. That's like me saying that we shouldn't hire corporate pilots because they only know how to fly with the help of EFIS and A/T. They shouldn't be hired because they can't handle flying a DC-9 to Cat II minimums with only 2 Vors and 1 NDB. Not to mention they would have trouble with a raw data NDB approach.

Actually I have flown for 2 of the big three so I can speak from experience. It's the nature of the beast, when you pay a pilot hourly they are always trying to maximize their pay, typically trying to fly less for more $$$. I understand the concept and have spent years doing it myself. It just doesn't translate well to the corporate world.

As far as technology, it's not even close. Sure we train at FSI or Simuflight but what I was referring to was the need to stay up on the latest industry trends. All one needs to do it look at the subjects of the threads on the corporate page. Their is a thread over here about having to write a chapter in an FOM about C-FOQA. You will never see a thread like that over on the Majors page, they are too busy arguing with some moron named General Lee.
Now you tell me what % of airline guys know and understand what FOQA is? In corporate you don't have a choice and that was my point. As a Director, I know my boss has asked "Have you operated HUD and EVS"? If so "explain to me what your EVS callouts are and what you are looking for"?
He would interview an airline guy, he's looking for quality no matter where it comes from. Can an airline guy find out the answer, sure he/she could but you need to get up off your rear and stay abreast of the latest industry trends on your own because you are not going to get them in the right seat of an MD80. In fact if an MD80 or any other low tech piece of equipment airline pilot came in for an interview and took the initiative to study the types of equipment that we fly and to know the answers to questions like the ones above, that individual would instantly move to the top of the pile based upon initiative alone.

But the reality is "most" airline guys think that"hey, I have 8000+ hours of acident free flying I am good to go, if they want me they will train me" while thats great it's just not enought to get a corporate job

 

[Redtailer]

.

As far as technology, it's not even close. Sure we train at FSI or Simuflight but what I was referring to was the need to stay up on the latest industry trends. All one needs to do it look at the subjects of the threads on the corporate page. Their is a thread over here about having to write a chapter in an FOM about C-FOQA. You will never see a thread like that over on the Majors page, they are too busy arguing with some moron named General Lee.
Now you tell me what % of airline guys know and understand what FOQA is? In corporate you don't have a choice and that was my point. As a Director, I know my boss has asked "Have you operated HUD and EVS"? If so "explain to me what your EVS callouts are and what you are looking for"?

See that's what I am talking about. If you have been in the corporate world long enough without any outside blood then you have no idea what you may be missing out on or what new procedures they may bring to the department.

I don't know a major airline that doesn't have a FOQA program in place. In fact I believe the program was developed in the airlines back in the early to mid 90s. As for the HUDs I know a couple of majors have them. I am sure Alaska 737s do. Not sure about the EVS in their airplanes though. Why would the airlines spend the money when they can do CAT IIIB Autolands in almost 0-0 weather? Not saying EVS isn't great, but just that it would be redundant to spend the money on it.

Airlines will always do 2 things better than any corporate flight department. 1. Save money and 2. Stay safe enough to keep pax from complaining.

For instance several airlines are using the Turb Plot info developed by NW. It's a great system to keep aircraft out of turbulence that actually works and saves money in the process. Delta has Attila for aircraft sequencing which they claim saves millions and mitigates delays. Airlines were using NRP long before most corporate departments ever heard of it which saves millions in direct routing. In fact there are still a lot of corporate departments in the dark on the that one as to what it is or how it actually works. Have an ASAP program yet? The list goes on.

How many Citations have a HUD/EVS? Beech? Bombardier? The fact is that MOST of the corporate world does not have that equipment either. Almost anything older than the PlaneView cockpits are on par with the airlines which is the majority of corporate jets and that will probably change when the 787 arrives or the other next generation airliners. So the playing field is level when it comes to knowing the equipment. I would even go so far as to say the airline guys have an advantage because they are already in tune with what the new FAA programs like FOQA, AQP, and others are before most corporate departments ever hear of them.