Air Wisconsin minimums lowered?

[freightrash]

minimum minimum minimum....

Does it matter??
Minimums are for friends to get in.
If you don't do team-play(??), you won't get any response other than automated reply.

 

[Rottweiller]

In the latest new hire class at AWAC the low time dude had an amazing 335 hrs. Good luck to the captains who will be babysitting/flight instructing for four days.

Already had the pleasure of flying with 2 of these "wonder pilots" and, holy$hit it's like flying a single crew jet! One on approach in almost minimums was so far behind I think they were at the LOM when we landed.

Should have another pay scale (read Danger Money) for this stuff, although growth of a 3rd eye on the right side of my head is helping.

 

[Twotter76]

Here is my take on it

I have never before entered the discussion on this type of program simply because there are plently of other people out there that share my opinion about why anyone with less than 1500 hours has exactly no business anywhere near the cockpit of an RJ but there is one point I want to bring up here that hasn't yet been mentioned within the confines of this thread. It is VERY important that we all understand exactly what our key function as pilots is - we protect the lives of the passengers when things do not go right. Its really just that simple dont you think? I think we can all agree that just about anyone can be taught to fly an RJ when everything is going right and the weather is fine regardless of what their experience level happens to be. While there are certainly aspects to it that can be challenging by and large there is enough automation to make the process very straightforward. How many of you out there really believe that your average 500 hour pilot has enough skills to make a safe landing going in to LGA at night in winter in moderate turbulence and icing with an incapcitated captain in a 35 knot crosswind single engine?

I believe it was Ernest Gann who said that "In this game we play for keeps". And that is really the essence of my objection to the situation. Under normal circumstances the captain is always there to grab the airplane at the last minute when the FO (or vice versa) messes up somehow but what happens when that safeguard is removed? I dont mean to come across as a condesending as$, I certainly dont claim to be the best pilot out there (or even an above average one), but we all know what happens when we screw up - people get hurt. If we screw up badly enough people die. Lets dwell on that for just a minute. We as a direct result of our actions control the lives of our passengers and whether or not they continue to the next day. Pilots are the sum of their experiences and this is what we draw on when things dont go well in order to protect the 30-50 or more people in the back. They trust us with their lives and they deserve no more than our absolute best efforts to preserve their safety.

Do new lawyers argue supreme court cases? Do new residents do brain surgery? Does any other profession entrust its newest, most inexperienced pupils the way aviation does? We all argue that we are professionals (I try to be one anyway) and want to be treated (and paid) as such but in any other profession can you buy your way in like you can in aviation? I am fairly sure that spending an extra $100k wont get me my MD any sooner. And even though sometimes I wonder I am pretty sure that I can't buy my way past the bar exam. And if you could how do you suppose that you would be viewed by your peers? Probably not much different from the way that most of us view a 500 hour RJ pilot.

I do not have nearly as much of a problem with someone buying a type rating as I do with someone inexperienced being in direct control of the safety of my loved ones. After all everyones financial position is different and we as a group tend to do whats best for us individually. This is in part what has led to our collective declines in QOL. We are all trying to "live the dream" in one shape or another and many of us are willing to sell ourselves short in order to obtain it at a later date. By perpetuating the mentality of "I'm just doing my time in order to move on" we basically hand management our contracts on a platter and ask them to make any corrections they feel might be in order. I fly for a regional airline just like so many others here and it is not my end goal but I will fight to protect what I have rather than letting it slowly slip away for future gains that may or may not unfold.

Just one more thing I want to respond to before I go - A quick qoute from pipejockey that to me really demonstrates why some people really dont take their jobs and the implied consequences therein seriously enough.

This is the only profession I know of where so many people concern themselves about how someone gets the required experience necessary for a job. Some of you need to get over yourselves.

You want to know why I concern myself with how you got your experience (or lack thereof)? Because some that I care about might be riding with you at some point.

OK with all this said I wil get off my soapbox and I welcome any intelligent discussion and will cheerfully ignore everything else. Good luck to us all.

Twotter76

 

[norskman2]

It is VERY important that we all understand exactly what our key function as pilots is - we protect the lives of the passengers when things do not go right. Its really just that simple dont you think? I think we can all agree that just about anyone can be taught to fly an RJ when everything is going right and the weather is fine regardless of what their experience level happens to be. While there are certainly aspects to it that can be challenging by and large there is enough automation to make the process very straightforward. How many of you out there really believe that your average 500 hour pilot has enough skills to make a safe landing going in to LGA at night in winter in moderate turbulence and icing with an incapcitated captain in a 35 knot crosswind single engine?

Twotter (and others) raise some excellent points about whether low-time pilots have the skills to safely operate an RJ. However, there is one point that I have not heard mentioned. Low-time hires are not strictly a result of bridge programs. Let's not forget that in the great hiring frenzy of 1998-2001, most regionals were gladly scooping up as many 1000/100 pilots as they could get their hands on. And many, like Skyway, Lakes, Commutair, and even Coex and others were hiring people closer to 500/50 and that's without having gone through any sort of a bridge/CRM/procedures training. There are a lot of pilots on this board who were hired back then with the same "low qualifications" as the people from bridge programs who are currently being bashed on this board.

Back in 2000, I didn't hear too many people on this board complaining that low-time pilots were potentially dangerous. Why? Because all the pilots were too busy dancing with glee because they got to become regional pilots.

Hiring low-time pilots may present legitimate safety concerns. But if that's the case, there's THOUSANDS of regional pilots, many on this board, who should be raising their hand because they were once in that category too.

 

[labbats]

It's going to take a fatal crash with an incapacitated captain and a inexperienced FO all over the news to right the situation. Until then, the public outcry is geared towards dollars spent rather than safety.

 

[embdrvr]

I don't worry that much about low time pilots if the training department is doing its job. Part of their job is weeding out the ones that aren't ready. What I don't like about hiring low time pilots is that many of them are young and willing to vote yes on any pay package with a "growth carrot" attached. In a perfect world all we'd have as newhires is guys that are married and raising a family. Low time kids that are willing to live in their vans are not helping those of us that are trying to make a living. I hope to be at a major before the year's out but I treat this job as if I'll spend the next 17 years at the company.

 

[Ace757]

Why is a 1200 hr CFI who does Touch and Go's all day in a 172 any more qualified to handle an emergency in an RJ than a 500hr pilot with an RJ type. If we are going to have the argument about how low time guys are not safe, than we should also say that maybe regionals shouldn't interview ANYONE who does not have turbine experience. Nothing against CFI's, you guys are hard workers, but how much better of a Jet pilot will you be flying 700 more hours worth of bounce and go's. Does that automatically give you the descision making ability to handle a Jet. You guys that are already at the airlines know as well as I do that their is nothing you can do to prepare for learning how to fly a jet. It is an entirely different animal. Everything you learned in the past goes right out the window. Every new FO is behind the airplane at first. You can't expect somone who has 500 to 1200 hrs in a 172 or even 2000hrs to be able to keep up on a JET their first couple of weeks. It is all new to them, like it was new to u when u started. Everyone who comes from a piston background start on the same page when it comes to training. I wouldn't say a 1200hr guy has any more of an advantage in training than a 500 hr guy. ITS COMPLETLY DIFFERENT. Im not saying that I would ever do a program like this, but I just wanted to point out that their is more than just one side to this argument. Just my .02 Cents.

 

[Speedtree]

I guess that's why so many AWAC pilots are opposed to this program. I don't think we have hired any CFI's (at least not in the last few years) and our minimums used to be 1500 x 500 which virtually guaranteed that everyone came from a 121/135 backround. I was hired from a part 91 job and had 800 hours of turbine PIC and I felt lucky to be there. I have only met 1 or 2 guys who have been hired from a part 91 job. I haven't met any of the low-timers nor have I flown with them but when you get used to the quality of pilots we have maintained in the past it makes you wonder and speculate about any new low-timers. Hopefully nothing bad will happen as a result of this change in policy. Hopefully. I wish these new guys the best and don't fault them for anything they have done. Most of us would do the exact same thing were we in their shoes. I think the company is making a mistake.

 

[Ace757]

AWAC isnt the only airline that does this

 

[labbats]

Why is a 1200 hr CFI who does Touch and Go's all day in a 172 any more qualified to handle an emergency in an RJ than a 500hr pilot with an RJ type.

I see your point, but most CFIs who go to 1000+ total time get their CFII and MEI. Those are very important. You also grow a lot as a pilot from 500 to 1000 hours.

 

[BankAccount=0$]

Just as an outsider to the whole regional industry, I find it puzzling to see Air Wisconsin lowering their minimums below 1500/500. I've been an instructor for 4 years, and during that time I've seen the mins go up and down for various regionals. When I got out of school CoEx was hiring anybody they could get their hands on,(and a lot of other regionals as well). Then 9/11 hit and the industry hit the dumper, the stakes were quite a bit higher to get a job. I always thought that Air whisky was the top of the heap when it came to regional airlines, they had the highest mins, and therefore were able to get exactly what they wanted in pilot applicants. Perhaps it's the lack of growth in the regional arena that is driving the mins down. If a company knows that their upgrade times are going on 5-6 years plus, maybe they just realize that they are no longer attractive to higher time pilots who are looking to upgrade and subsequently move on to greener pastures.

I'd like to think that the knowledge gained by teaching, and flying an old rust bucket twin for four years will come in handy when I get my "big" break at an airline, but that remains to be seen. If a particular airline decides to roll the dice on a bridge type of program then that's their choice. From the AWAC captains that I've met, I'd have to say that the low time guys being hired have a great resource to learn from. It's obvious that anybody can learn to be a FO on a jet, but the same isn't true when it comes to being a captain. Nobody was there to help me when an engine quit on take off in the twin I was flying, and nobody was there when everything went dark flying along in the middle of the night. If all you have to fall back on as far as experience as a pilot is what you were taught in a sim, then you might be lacking in the ability to make a PIC decision when it really counts. The flip side to that is that if you're low time, but trained in the RJ that you are flying and if you use your time as an FO to really learn from your captains and apply those lessons learned for when you upgrade, then perhaps being hired at a low total time would be offset by the experience gained.
In the meantime I'll just cross my fingers that AWAC might give me the chance to interview, and hopefully be able to be a part of a great company.

Good luck to all of you,
TJ

 

[lurker]

From what I understand, Air Willy hired a lot of high time furloughees after 9-11. Once the Frontiers and Air Trans and ATAs and such started hiring again, it was the high time people that were first to leave, especially with the lower morale in the past couple years.

From what I have heard, they're hiring more low time folks to slow the attrition, thus the lowered minimums.

I know of one guy (not a furloughee, but had fairly high time) that was hired at Air Willy, got through sim 6, and then gave notice after ATA offered him a class.

I would guess this is good news for lower time folks.

 

[pipejockey]

I have never before entered the discussion on this type of program simply because there are plently of other people out there that share my opinion about why anyone with less than 1500 hours has exactly no business anywhere near the cockpit of an RJ

Why must you see everything in black and white? So the 3000 hour pilot is more competent than the 2500, the 2000 hour more competent than the 1500, and so on and so on.
You figure one has 300 hours before beginning to flight instruct. So assuming one flight instructs 1000 hours in a 172, 200 hours in a seminole, this person is now OK to get the near the cockpit of an RJ? But someone with 650 Multi, 300 turbine with part 135 experience but only 750 total is not competent to be an RJ pilot? This is why I say some people need to "get over themselves" as you made a point to insult me for saying.

Just one more thing I want to respond to before I go - A quick qoute from pipejockey that to me really demonstrates why some people really dont take their jobs and the implied consequences therein seriously enough.

Quote:
This is the only profession I know of where so many people concern themselves about how someone gets the required experience necessary for a job. Some of you need to get over yourselves.
OK with all this said I wil get off my soapbox and I welcome any intelligent discussion and will cheerfully ignore everything else. Good luck to us all.

Twotter,
Im sorry to hear you find my discussion unintelligent. I think I'll live. You took a quote from me and completely took it out of context and you know it!

How many of you out there really believe that your average 500 hour pilot has enough skills to make a safe landing going in to LGA at night in winter in moderate turbulence and icing with an incapcitated captain in a 35 knot crosswind single engine?

The above quote by twotter followed, interestingly enough, by this:

You want to know why I concern myself with how you got your experience (or lack thereof)? Because some that I care about might be riding with you at some point.

I think it is apparent from the last 2 quotes that the fear you have for the safety of those you care about is not when they will be flying with me, but with you!!! Someone who apparently will exceed not only the aircraft manufacturer's limitations but also the limitations of the airline. That is why we have a 27 knot crosswind limitation on a dry runway, 24 wet, and 15 on ice or snow covered. And you will land at LGA during these conditions, single engine, and with an incapacitated Captain to boot when EWR, and JFK are close by?? And you worry about MY judgement!

 

[J32driver]

I think it is apparent from the last 2 quotes that the fear you have for the safety of those you care about is not when they will be flying with me, but with you!!! Someone who apparently will exceed not only the aircraft manufacturer's limitations but also the limitations of the airline. That is why we have a 27 knot crosswind limitation on a dry runway, 24 wet, and 15 on ice or snow covered. And you will land at LGA during these conditions, single engine, and with an incapacitated Captain to boot when EWR, and JFK are close by?? And you worry about MY judgement!

That is a PATHETIC argument and...YOU KNOW IT.

This all boils down to experience. An instructor sees more unusual situations than a guy who buys 200 hours of multi time and flys point to point just to build time. The person that bought the time is not building alot of "experience", just time.

 

[Propsync]

Not to bash this post at all, but it still comes down to the person. Unfortunately, all you low time hires are lumped together. I got hired at 1300/100. I was a smash and dash MEI. The difference was I WANTED it. Most of the new generation of low timers think it's owed to them. That's the diffeerence, if someone cares enough to want it. I just posted a reply for some guy who just got hired at PDT worried about bases, like there are more chicks at one place or another. Please, at 500 hrs. I was trying to be a better pilot, and to be a better instructor. Not where my base will be.

As far as Air Whisky is concerned, I'm not suprised mins. have lowered. Long upgrade, feed to in trouble, high costs to use as MESUCK and SHATAQUA are lower bidders. Could be worse with abinitio PFT'ers!