Air Wisconsin minimums lowered?

[mooser]

Before we get on a posting spree let me just add the following.


I didn't call anyone an a hole. I had a long day as a flight instructor after years of doing the same construction jobs you still cherish. I saw the post of someone buying a type rating and effectively cutting in line for a job I want. I'm relatively certain that I too could earn that rating too if I ponied up enough cash. The issue isn't the earning, but moreso the buying.

Dude I totally understand where you are coming from!!! I have spent the last three years living at home and CFI'ing it up!!!! I finally got a job but, the other kids can just buy some CRJ or 737 Type that have ritch daddy's with large credit limits to get these jobs...It fire's me up!!!! I guess the hard workers like us just have to put it in the back of our minds that we earned our positions and when we are hiring captains I will be right behind you when I tear some rich kid a new a*hole for trying to buy his way in to this industry. Those are the same ones that go to MESA.

Anyhoo

Mooser

 

[pipejockey]

Before we get on a posting spree let me just add the following.


I didn't call anyone an a hole. I had a long day as a flight instructor after years of doing the same construction jobs you still cherish. I saw the post of someone buying a type rating and effectively cutting in line for a job I want. I'm relatively certain that I too could earn that rating too if I ponied up enough cash. The issue isn't the earning, but moreso the buying.

Thank you for the explanation, and I know you were not the one calling people aholes but you seemed to agree with that poster. I wouldn't say I cherish the construction jobs but what they have done is allow me to appreciate the oppurtunity I now have at a regional airline. Im sorry to hear you think I've "cut" in line but I just want to better my resume and do something that would perhaps make me stand out in the crowd. Competition for airline jobs is fierce. Its all about getting noticed, and a type rating gets you noticed. And I'd be curious to know how the "line" that I cut is defined. I met the minimums of the Company that hired me. And far surpassed the ME mins plus I have turbine time.. I know many have much more but I'd hardly say I cut.

Goodluck in your job search. 2004 is looking to be a pretty good year with probably more newhires this year than in the last 2 years combined.

 

[pipejockey]

And Mooser,

The rich kids who have their way paid for them by mommy and daddy frustrate me as well. But I think you'd be surprised at how many of these people don't come from wealthy families. I did it all on my own and am very proud of the hard work I endured to get here. You seem to think that just hard working CFI's should have the oppurtunity and not others like me. You know we are not all in our 20's. I don't have the time to spend 4 years flight instructing. Nor can I afford to relocate and get paid 12 bucks an hour for Instructing about 500 hours a year which is what I'd have to do. I found another way. I simply tried to improve my resume. Plus a lot of the Type Rating guys actually meet the mins!

 

[SpocksBeard]

I stand by my "aholes" comment. I think what they did is a despicable thing to do. Like someone said before, anybody can sit in a simulator and push buttons. I'm thankful for the 2.5 years I put in instructing and no it isn't the only way to get there. I don't look down on somebody who doesn't flight instruct but I don't see how anybody can justify what these people paid to get a job here at AWAC. This situation isn't nearly as bad as the whole Gulfstream debacle but I still don't think it is right. I earned my job. They didn't. Simple as that. I would not give them a hard time if I ever end up as captain here, but I would not hire them if I was on a hiring board in the future. I also understand it is not just the "rich kids" who do this and many people want to "build their resumes" with this type of experience. I knew a guy at my old cargo job who did the Gulfstream thing because he had a violation on his record and he felt that it was the only way he was ever going to get hired by an airline. I can understand this view point but I still don't think that makes it right. This whole mentality erodes the pay and benefits for everybody. AWAC may realize that there are enough guys out there that will pay ridiculous amounts of money to fly their airplanes, and they will decide to only hire through this academy deal because these people are picking up part of the training cost. Then AWAC will realize that these guys will still take the job if they don't get paid in training. They are so desperate to be an airline pilot that they will pay for their own hotel in training too, so I guess we can save more money that way. Its a downward spiral and that is why alot of people at this company are somewhat disgruntled about our new hiring practices. I don't think that Southwest is a fair comparison either. You can get a 737 type for fairly cheap and it is or was a hard and fast requirement set by the company. I think these guys hired at AWAC paid considerably more. Plus, at SWA you actually start at a decent wage.

 

[EngineOut]

 

[J32driver]

I think these guys hired at AWAC paid considerably more.

Take it for what its worth, but the number thrown out at my last recurrent ground school was $108,000 from "zero time" to RJ type rating. The type is $20K (i think) and thats after $88K for the basic and advanced flight training they already shelled out.

If that number is indeed correct, its REAL hard to not think they bought their job. That doesn't pass any judgement on their individual skills as a pilot. Each one will surely get a "fair shake" with this pilot group.

 

[lionflyer]

Take it for what its worth, but the number thrown out at my last recurrent ground school was $108,000 from "zero time" to RJ type rating. The type is $20K (i think) and thats after $88K for the basic and advanced flight training they already shelled out.

If that number is indeed correct, its REAL hard to not think they bought their job. That doesn't pass any judgement on their individual skills as a pilot. Each one will surely get a "fair shake" with this pilot group.

Why the He11 would anybody pay that kind of money to fly an RJ? They'll be lucky to have that paid off by the time they retire. What's this industry comming to?

 

[SpocksBeard]

That's the number I heard too but I didn't want to throw it out there without hearing it from somebody more official. Isn't a 737 type like 7000 or something??? Sounds like somebody got screwed...

 

[pipejockey]

That astronomical monetary figure someone threw out is probably if you go through their entire program. You can do just the type rating which is a fraction of the cost.

Thanks for your input SpocksBeard. I am glad that you feel these people will get a fair shake from the other pilots at AWAC. Its frustrating for me because I passed on a few programs I felt were objectionable such as, Gulfstream and Colgan. I actually stayed in the trenches longer than I needed to in order to do something I felt was reasonable. I didnt think there would be so much negativity about the Type program. I even passed on a potential oppurtunity at Mesa because of the things Ive heard about them and their pilot group. I guess you will always have people that have a problem with the way you do things regardless of what you do. I just hope I am judged on my ability, competence and enthusiasm for the job from the pilot group.

 

[Dr.Hwang]

In the latest new hire class at AWAC the low time dude had an amazing 335 hrs. Good luck to the captains who will be babysitting/flight instructing for four days.

 

[freightrash]

minimum minimum minimum....

Does it matter??
Minimums are for friends to get in.
If you don't do team-play(??), you won't get any response other than automated reply.

 

[Rottweiller]

In the latest new hire class at AWAC the low time dude had an amazing 335 hrs. Good luck to the captains who will be babysitting/flight instructing for four days.

Already had the pleasure of flying with 2 of these "wonder pilots" and, holy$hit it's like flying a single crew jet! One on approach in almost minimums was so far behind I think they were at the LOM when we landed.

Should have another pay scale (read Danger Money) for this stuff, although growth of a 3rd eye on the right side of my head is helping.

 

[Twotter76]

Here is my take on it

I have never before entered the discussion on this type of program simply because there are plently of other people out there that share my opinion about why anyone with less than 1500 hours has exactly no business anywhere near the cockpit of an RJ but there is one point I want to bring up here that hasn't yet been mentioned within the confines of this thread. It is VERY important that we all understand exactly what our key function as pilots is - we protect the lives of the passengers when things do not go right. Its really just that simple dont you think? I think we can all agree that just about anyone can be taught to fly an RJ when everything is going right and the weather is fine regardless of what their experience level happens to be. While there are certainly aspects to it that can be challenging by and large there is enough automation to make the process very straightforward. How many of you out there really believe that your average 500 hour pilot has enough skills to make a safe landing going in to LGA at night in winter in moderate turbulence and icing with an incapcitated captain in a 35 knot crosswind single engine?

I believe it was Ernest Gann who said that "In this game we play for keeps". And that is really the essence of my objection to the situation. Under normal circumstances the captain is always there to grab the airplane at the last minute when the FO (or vice versa) messes up somehow but what happens when that safeguard is removed? I dont mean to come across as a condesending as$, I certainly dont claim to be the best pilot out there (or even an above average one), but we all know what happens when we screw up - people get hurt. If we screw up badly enough people die. Lets dwell on that for just a minute. We as a direct result of our actions control the lives of our passengers and whether or not they continue to the next day. Pilots are the sum of their experiences and this is what we draw on when things dont go well in order to protect the 30-50 or more people in the back. They trust us with their lives and they deserve no more than our absolute best efforts to preserve their safety.

Do new lawyers argue supreme court cases? Do new residents do brain surgery? Does any other profession entrust its newest, most inexperienced pupils the way aviation does? We all argue that we are professionals (I try to be one anyway) and want to be treated (and paid) as such but in any other profession can you buy your way in like you can in aviation? I am fairly sure that spending an extra $100k wont get me my MD any sooner. And even though sometimes I wonder I am pretty sure that I can't buy my way past the bar exam. And if you could how do you suppose that you would be viewed by your peers? Probably not much different from the way that most of us view a 500 hour RJ pilot.

I do not have nearly as much of a problem with someone buying a type rating as I do with someone inexperienced being in direct control of the safety of my loved ones. After all everyones financial position is different and we as a group tend to do whats best for us individually. This is in part what has led to our collective declines in QOL. We are all trying to "live the dream" in one shape or another and many of us are willing to sell ourselves short in order to obtain it at a later date. By perpetuating the mentality of "I'm just doing my time in order to move on" we basically hand management our contracts on a platter and ask them to make any corrections they feel might be in order. I fly for a regional airline just like so many others here and it is not my end goal but I will fight to protect what I have rather than letting it slowly slip away for future gains that may or may not unfold.

Just one more thing I want to respond to before I go - A quick qoute from pipejockey that to me really demonstrates why some people really dont take their jobs and the implied consequences therein seriously enough.

This is the only profession I know of where so many people concern themselves about how someone gets the required experience necessary for a job. Some of you need to get over yourselves.

You want to know why I concern myself with how you got your experience (or lack thereof)? Because some that I care about might be riding with you at some point.

OK with all this said I wil get off my soapbox and I welcome any intelligent discussion and will cheerfully ignore everything else. Good luck to us all.

Twotter76

 

[norskman2]

It is VERY important that we all understand exactly what our key function as pilots is - we protect the lives of the passengers when things do not go right. Its really just that simple dont you think? I think we can all agree that just about anyone can be taught to fly an RJ when everything is going right and the weather is fine regardless of what their experience level happens to be. While there are certainly aspects to it that can be challenging by and large there is enough automation to make the process very straightforward. How many of you out there really believe that your average 500 hour pilot has enough skills to make a safe landing going in to LGA at night in winter in moderate turbulence and icing with an incapcitated captain in a 35 knot crosswind single engine?

Twotter (and others) raise some excellent points about whether low-time pilots have the skills to safely operate an RJ. However, there is one point that I have not heard mentioned. Low-time hires are not strictly a result of bridge programs. Let's not forget that in the great hiring frenzy of 1998-2001, most regionals were gladly scooping up as many 1000/100 pilots as they could get their hands on. And many, like Skyway, Lakes, Commutair, and even Coex and others were hiring people closer to 500/50 and that's without having gone through any sort of a bridge/CRM/procedures training. There are a lot of pilots on this board who were hired back then with the same "low qualifications" as the people from bridge programs who are currently being bashed on this board.

Back in 2000, I didn't hear too many people on this board complaining that low-time pilots were potentially dangerous. Why? Because all the pilots were too busy dancing with glee because they got to become regional pilots.

Hiring low-time pilots may present legitimate safety concerns. But if that's the case, there's THOUSANDS of regional pilots, many on this board, who should be raising their hand because they were once in that category too.

 

[labbats]

It's going to take a fatal crash with an incapacitated captain and a inexperienced FO all over the news to right the situation. Until then, the public outcry is geared towards dollars spent rather than safety.

 

[embdrvr]

I don't worry that much about low time pilots if the training department is doing its job. Part of their job is weeding out the ones that aren't ready. What I don't like about hiring low time pilots is that many of them are young and willing to vote yes on any pay package with a "growth carrot" attached. In a perfect world all we'd have as newhires is guys that are married and raising a family. Low time kids that are willing to live in their vans are not helping those of us that are trying to make a living. I hope to be at a major before the year's out but I treat this job as if I'll spend the next 17 years at the company.

 

[Ace757]

Why is a 1200 hr CFI who does Touch and Go's all day in a 172 any more qualified to handle an emergency in an RJ than a 500hr pilot with an RJ type. If we are going to have the argument about how low time guys are not safe, than we should also say that maybe regionals shouldn't interview ANYONE who does not have turbine experience. Nothing against CFI's, you guys are hard workers, but how much better of a Jet pilot will you be flying 700 more hours worth of bounce and go's. Does that automatically give you the descision making ability to handle a Jet. You guys that are already at the airlines know as well as I do that their is nothing you can do to prepare for learning how to fly a jet. It is an entirely different animal. Everything you learned in the past goes right out the window. Every new FO is behind the airplane at first. You can't expect somone who has 500 to 1200 hrs in a 172 or even 2000hrs to be able to keep up on a JET their first couple of weeks. It is all new to them, like it was new to u when u started. Everyone who comes from a piston background start on the same page when it comes to training. I wouldn't say a 1200hr guy has any more of an advantage in training than a 500 hr guy. ITS COMPLETLY DIFFERENT. Im not saying that I would ever do a program like this, but I just wanted to point out that their is more than just one side to this argument. Just my .02 Cents.

 

[Speedtree]

I guess that's why so many AWAC pilots are opposed to this program. I don't think we have hired any CFI's (at least not in the last few years) and our minimums used to be 1500 x 500 which virtually guaranteed that everyone came from a 121/135 backround. I was hired from a part 91 job and had 800 hours of turbine PIC and I felt lucky to be there. I have only met 1 or 2 guys who have been hired from a part 91 job. I haven't met any of the low-timers nor have I flown with them but when you get used to the quality of pilots we have maintained in the past it makes you wonder and speculate about any new low-timers. Hopefully nothing bad will happen as a result of this change in policy. Hopefully. I wish these new guys the best and don't fault them for anything they have done. Most of us would do the exact same thing were we in their shoes. I think the company is making a mistake.

 

[Ace757]

AWAC isnt the only airline that does this

 

[labbats]

Why is a 1200 hr CFI who does Touch and Go's all day in a 172 any more qualified to handle an emergency in an RJ than a 500hr pilot with an RJ type.

I see your point, but most CFIs who go to 1000+ total time get their CFII and MEI. Those are very important. You also grow a lot as a pilot from 500 to 1000 hours.