Air Tran gives 3 year old the boot

[BVT94]

Lear, so can you tell us that spanking was a very effective way for you to learn as a child? A method that taught you to do the right thing all the time, or just when other people were watching. Did you feel the need to lie to your parents to save your a$$ sometimes? Did you ever feel the need to search out for your parents' acceptance? Because I think that's the message some kids inadvertently get when their parents are heavy into punishing and praise. But this is venturing into a whole other topic.

And we will never see DIRECT PROOF (as you stated) until our children are much older. Anger and separation grow with time, so let's talk when our kids are teenagers.

Next time when your child is acting out of control, keep your ego and need for control in check, and find a safe place for your child to deal with their rage or hold them if you need to so that no one gets hurt. After they calm down and even hours later, try talking to them about why their actions were unacceptable. I guarantee you this works! It may take a few times, but many parents have no objection to multiple time outs or spankings, so why not trying multiple discussions. My daughter has never been punished. We've worked through hair pulling, hitting, taking turns, etc, all the kid stuff, and she learns. It takes a little effort and self-control on the parent's part, but it works. For your children's sake, I want to reiterate that it is totally pointless to try to rationalize with them when they are raging, tired, or react to something they ate. Haven't you ever been really, really mad and had someone try to talk sense into you? Doesn't usually work well, since sometimes you just have to vent. Once you cool down, it's much easier to be rational. Please, just allow your kids the same. Give them a safe place and outlet where no one is getting hurt and let them vent.

Someday we will hopefully treat kids like we want to be treated. To put it in terms you'd better understand, when you got to your new airline job, you probably had to learn alot of new procedures. You likely had the benefit of studying them first, and then an instructor worked with you in the sim, and then you had IOE and then online. Even though you studied all the new procedures, you likely made mistakes throughout training and maybe still do occasionally have lapses of judgment. Would you prefer a gentle reminder of the proper technique, time off without pay, or lashing? Would you prefer I give you one warning and then a lashing? Maybe starting in training we can tally all your lapses in judgment and then subtract pay for each one?

Don't tell me child are different, because they are not. They are new to this new job of life and they are still learning the rules.

 

[BVT94]

Excellent post. There is a difference between the application of physical discipline and physical abuse.
Most bleeding hearts just can't understand that. They think that any physical "correction" is abuse.
My wife and I have a friend who did not believe in punishing their dogs. It was funny to see her reaction when she met my puppy on a camping trip. She was amazed (shocked?) that a dog could be so well behaved. My dog behaves in this way because I used an age old, time tested system of reward and punishment to teach her what was acceptable and what was not.

I really don't understand how you all can justify hurting kids and animals. It's all abuse, when you are inflicting pain on another, especially creatures smaller who can't defend themselves. My dog is well-behaved as well, and he's never been hit. It's called Positive Dog Training. I'm just going to assume that you didn't know there is another way that doesn't involve pain...but now that you know, it's your responsibility to yourself to choose to go on hurting others or to re-evaluate your methods and use your mind instead of your hands.

 

[Lear70]

Lear, so can you tell us that spanking was a very effective way for you to learn as a child?

I believe so. I'm not a criminal; I'm a functioning, respectable member of society and I love and respect my parents. That's about as much as we can possibly ask from our children, anything else is their business of how they live their lives.

A method that taught you to do the right thing all the time, or just when other people were watching. Did you feel the need to lie to your parents to save your a$$ sometimes? Did you ever feel the need to search out for your parents' acceptance? Because I think that's the message some kids inadvertently get when their parents are heavy into punishing and praise. But this is venturing into a whole other topic.

I didn't say it made a PERFECT child, it simply is more acceptable than just allowing kids to go wild with no boundaries.

And we will never see DIRECT PROOF (as you stated) until our children are much older. Anger and separation grow with time, so let's talk when our kids are teenagers.

OK.

Next time when your child is acting out of control, keep your ego and need for control in check, and find a safe place for your child to deal with their rage or hold them if you need to so that no one gets hurt. After they calm down and even hours later, try talking to them about why their actions were unacceptable. I guarantee you this works!

And I guarantee you it doesn't, not with a 3 year old. They don't remember what they were doing 5 minutes ago, much less hours ago. Punishment has to be done immediately in this age group, or it's completely ineffective.

I've seen people try this discipline method, and it works to a certain extent if you don't have a strong-willed child (girls are easier to discipline at young ages, we have one of both). If you DO have a strong-willed child (especially boys), I've yet to see this be effective - the kid usually ends up running all over the parent.

It may take a few times, but many parents have no objection to multiple time outs or spankings, so why not trying multiple discussions. My daughter has never been punished. We've worked through hair pulling, hitting, taking turns, etc, all the kid stuff, and she learns. It takes a little effort and self-control on the parent's part, but it works. For your children's sake, I want to reiterate that it is totally pointless to try to rationalize with them when they are raging, tired, or react to something they ate. Haven't you ever been really, really mad and had someone try to talk sense into you? Doesn't usually work well, since sometimes you just have to vent. Once you cool down, it's much easier to be rational. Please, just allow your kids the same. Give them a safe place and outlet where no one is getting hurt and let them vent.

You parent your way, I'll parent mine.

I simply ask that you don't tell me that spanking is somehow "wrong". If it's effective for my children, that's my business. NOT yours.

The whole point of how this discussion got started was that the child on the aircraft was UNCONTROLLABLE. The parents were NOT controlling the child, they were given adequate time to do so (5 minutes is PLENTY), and they didn't deal with the problem.

BOOM. Gone. Get off, have a nice day.

A quick couple of minutes in the bathroom would have solved this problem for my kids without incident.

Your mileage may vary, as it sounds like you'd have let the kid throw their tantrum.

Someday we will hopefully treat kids like we want to be treated. To put it in terms you'd better understand, when you got to your new airline job, you probably had to learn alot of new procedures. You likely had the benefit of studying them first, and then an instructor worked with you in the sim, and then you had IOE and then online. Even though you studied all the new procedures, you likely made mistakes throughout training and maybe still do occasionally have lapses of judgment. Would you prefer a gentle reminder of the proper technique, time off without pay, or lashing? Would you prefer I give you one warning and then a lashing? Maybe starting in training we can tally all your lapses in judgment and then subtract pay for each one?

Don't tell me child are different, because they are not. They are new to this new job of life and they are still learning the rules.

I WILL tell you children are different, because they are. They're blank slates with zero vocabulary skills until you teach them. NO comparison with a professional pilot in a new job.

To believe that children should automatically be able to understand and react as adults is assinine, but that's what you're advocating here?

You can't reason with an infant or toddler; to try and tell me you can is simply rediculous!!! I laugh every time I see a parent try to do this and then the kid goes and does whatever they were doing wrong again 5 seconds later.

 

[BVT94]

I've seen people try this discipline method, and it works to a certain extent if you don't have a strong-willed child (girls are easier to discipline at young ages, we have one of both). If you DO have a strong-willed child (especially boys), I've yet to see this be effective - the kid usually ends up running all over the parent.


I simply ask that you don't tell me that spanking is somehow "wrong". If it's effective for my children, that's my business. NOT yours.


Your mileage may vary, as it sounds like you'd have let the kid throw their tantrum.


I WILL tell you children are different, because they are. They're blank slates with zero vocabulary skills until you teach them. NO comparison with a professional pilot in a new job.

To believe that children should automatically be able to understand and react as adults is assinine, but that's what you're advocating here?

You can't reason with an infant or toddler; to try and tell me you can is simply rediculous!!! I laugh every time I see a parent try to do this and then the kid goes and does whatever they were doing wrong again 5 seconds later.

I'd venture to say you didn't see this method done right. It's not letting the child do what they want (that's lazy parenting). It's about boundaries, structure and respect. Going both ways--for the parent and for the child.

I *will* say spanking is wrong and most likely, soon enough the law will tell you the same. There's enough proof that spanking is an ineffective form of punishment and likely contributes to the cycle of violence, so why should it be allowed to go on?

No, I wouldn't have stayed on the airplane. I would have caught the next flight, without hesitation. I don't believe in inconveniencing others while we sort out our issues.

It's an interesting stream of thought coming from you. You say children are a blank slate and need to be taught everything, and yet you don't seem to have much tolerance for their learning curve. By your logic, it would make sense to me that children should be given even more latitude for error. If adults know better, like say a professional pilot, there should be little to no tolerance for them?

But hey, you go on defending what you do. I truly believe you are doing the best you can with what you've got.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I believe so. I'm not a criminal; I'm a functioning, respectable member of society and I love and respect my parents. That's about as much as we can possibly ask from our children, anything else is their business of how they live their lives.

No one said you were a criminal...why are you trying to convince us that you aren't?

Love and respect is earned. Each of us, including toddlers, gets to decide who we love and respect. Hitting is a negative behavior and doesn't yield repsect. Its begets fear.



To believe that children should automatically be able to understand and react as adults is assinine, but that's what you're advocating here?

I think she is advocating understanding, compassion, patience, love, respect, trust.... you know...the positive characteristics of humans...

You can't reason with an infant or toddler; to try and tell me you can is simply rediculous!!! I laugh every time I see a parent try to do this and then the kid goes and does whatever they were doing wrong again 5 seconds later.

No you can't reason with a toddler.....so tell us how hitting is justifed in thier minds. How do they logically understand that being hit is right or good for them when it hurts mentally and physically? Do you look happy when you hit your child?

Hitting just like yelling or using profanity translates to a loss of control. It is a control tactic to get people to do what we want. For example in a place of business if a customer is not getting what they want they may use yelling and profanity. The business gives what s/he wants just to shut them up...

If you hit your child to modify thier behavior is it acceptable for them to hit thier siblings or friends when they want to modify others behavior? Would you hit your child for hitting thier sibling? Tell us, where in our shared society is hitting acceptable? The playground? Schools? Church? Work? In fact you go to the bathroom to hide your actions when you spank you child.

Hitting is a great way to get the behavior you want right now. But it also defines us as parents. Some parents see raising a child as a long term investment. They aren't looking for short term results. Many realize that it takes children a long time to grow & develop, but once they leave the nest they trust themselves and thier (now) adult children to makes the right choices for themslevles and society.

Have you explianed spanking to your child? Why it is being done? Does the child know the boundries of spanking? Do they understand the (double standard) that it is ok for you to hit them but they can't hit anyone? Even so... when they most likely do hit someone (becuase most humans reject double standards) do they know the limits of inducing pain? Where is the line drawn on administering pain to your children or others?

If you could get positive child behavior without hitting as many have, why wouldn't you attempt to do so?

Is hitting or spanking the only way?

 

[Lear70]

No you can't reason with a toddler.....so tell us how hitting is justifed in thier minds. How do they logically understand that being hit is right or good for them when it hurts mentally and physically? Do you look happy when you hit your child?

I never said "hit" your child.

You're using a word in a negative context to deliberately skew the argument your way, when the context of my position has lent no such negativity.

Spanking is not for every situation. It's also never, ever done in anger.

You've avoided the question of whether you have kids; I'm going to guess that you don't.

When you do, we'll have this conversation again. Until then, debating this with you is like trying to have a systems argument with someone who's never flown that type of aircraft.

I'd venture to say you didn't see this method done right. It's not letting the child do what they want (that's lazy parenting). It's about boundaries, structure and respect. Going both ways--for the parent and for the child.

Of course you'd venture to say that. You're defending your position against spanking.

I *will* say spanking is wrong and most likely, soon enough the law will tell you the same. There's enough proof that spanking is an ineffective form of punishment and likely contributes to the cycle of violence, so why should it be allowed to go on?

Suuuuuuurrrrrre.

Spanking "illegal"? Not in the Deep South there, buddy. WAY to conservative for that type of Liberal bullsh*t a la' California.

And people wonder why kids are so screwed up.

No, I wouldn't have stayed on the airplane. I would have caught the next flight, without hesitation. I don't believe in inconveniencing others while we sort out our issues.

Good for you.

Obviously these parents didn't think the same way, and the crew reacted appropriately.

It's an interesting stream of thought coming from you. You say children are a blank slate and need to be taught everything, and yet you don't seem to have much tolerance for their learning curve. By your logic, it would make sense to me that children should be given even more latitude for error. If adults know better, like say a professional pilot, there should be little to no tolerance for them?

I never said there was little to no tolerance for them. I simply said that there is behavior that CANNOT be allowed and, when all other discipline options have failed, you have a choice. Let them continue to have their tantrum, or you can take the necessary disciplinary steps to stop it.

Otherwise, you TEACH them that their behavior WILL be allowed.

But hey, you go on defending what you do. I truly believe you are doing the best you can with what you've got.

As you can go on with your pacifist child rearing and hope and pray they somehow magically learn borders and accountability later in life once they are old enough to understand those wonderful lectures you must give (even though research clearly shows that patterns they set in early life are nearly impossible to change).

I truly believe you and the rest of the Walmart trailer trash raising kids I watch having tantrums are doing the best you can with your self-limited disciplinary options.

Who knows, you might get lucky with a passive and meek child and never have a problem. Good luck with that.

 

[youngin']

For all of you complaining about kids and how horrible it is to be on an airplane with them, get a grip, better yet get the bose headset. Oh thats
right you were the "perfect" child. No, you're that tool that walks through the airport "look at me i'm a pilot" Grow up! I've been that person that gets looked at because my kids may act up, and my response to you is find another seat or another flight yourself! I know your type, nothing is ever good enough for you or done right unless it's done your way. That's life accept it! And for 1900ca don't live in mco.

 

[kf4amu]

I was spanked as a child, with a switch when I was bad. Parental relationships aside (because that is not the subect of this thread), I consider myself one of the most respectful and courteous people in the world. I am also extremely stubborn, which is probably why I was spanked. As a child, I was stubborn just to be stubborn. Now, I am stubborn when I see it as being necessary.

Had I been "talked to" or "discussed" as a kid, I would have continued to do what I did, when and how I wanted to do it. Talking did not affect me one iota. And to a certain extent today, it still doesnt. Even today, things have to make sense for me to believe them. Most everything in aviation is rooted in common sense, which is why its so easy for me to understand and agree with everything, or if I dont, I at least follow the rules and have the confidence it is based in fact and good judgement (TSA notwithstanding) . As a young kid, I didnt have the mental capacities to reason like I do now. No amount of discussion would have convinced me I was doing something wrong. I just didnt care.

Spanking rules.

 

[Propnose]

I don't blame the crew at all, its getting ridiculous what parents let their kids do onboard our flights, from gum to pen markings all over those nice leather recaro seats, just despicable. I say control your kids for the sake of everyone onboard the flight. Good job.

I agree completely! I was on a UA flight a couple weeks ago from SJC to ORD, and there was a family with 3 kids, one of which was litterally jumping off the arm rest into the aisle, over and over. Did the parent's do anything? Nope. Neither did the F/A's though... and finally the kid must have gotten tired and finally sat his a$$ down where he belonged.

 

[capt. megadeth]

Sure is...but you can't do both at the same time!!!

Of course you can....
BTW, we are NOT getting into this one again!

 

[capt. megadeth]

That has to be one of the most rediculous arguments on this I have yet to hear.

A spanking is not abuse if it's done calmly, consistently, and love is shown after its done. If I have to explain this, you either a.) don't have kids or b.) were abused as a child and can't comprehend the "discipline with love" method of parenting that has worked for the entire history of mankind.

I agree. Spanking in my eyes is not beating the $hit out of your kid every day. Spanking to me is a light swat on the rear once in a great while when the kid is just truly misbehaving. I don't view spanking as abuse.....I think that's kind of over the top.

As for spousal abuse......it depends....it's not ok if dinner is on the table when I get home....tee hee.

 

[capt. megadeth]

Capt Megadeth, I was an airline pilot until I had my daughter. I fully intended to go back, not realizing how committed I would soon become to being there for my kid. My husband is also an airline pilot, so it was impossible to juggle our schedules and have any kind of real life together as a family. If you ever want someone to talk to who has been there, send me an email.

Thanks...I appreciate it.

 

[Aviation Geek]

I think what bothers me the most is the complete lack of understanding about the changes having a child inflicts on your life. Many (not all, maybe not even most) parents today look at like "hey, I figured out how to breed... take care of me."

Having a child, in the vast majority of cases is a choice. By making that choice, you have to assume responsibility. As a previous poster noted, his (or her) New Year's Eve dinner at the Melting Pot was hugely impacted by a couple brining their young children to the restaurant. The Melting Pot is a grown up place. What would make a parent think they can bring their little one there and expect them to behave like an adult?

An airplane is a "grown up place" as well. Some kids are great. They sit there quietly, play etc. But most sub five or six year olds cannot be expected, even those of the best parents, to sit for two hours confined to a 17 inch wide seat. They are kids. They cannot be expected to sit at the Melting Pot for three hours while dinner is being served.

If the parents wanted to take the kids out for New Years Eve, they could have gone to Chuck E. Cheese. The parents of the little girl on Air Tran could have driven. The key here is "COULD HAVE!" The global auto industry invented the minivan and SUV for just this sort of thing. It takes planning and sacrifices on the part of the parents, but obviously, they could not make that sacrifice.

The point of this rambling is that as parents, you have to give up your old life. You cannot just hop on a plane with your little dear - especially if you know she just had an inner ear procedure. You have to drive. You do not get to have romantic dinners on New Year's Eve at the Melting Pot if you want to take your kid.

And don't even get me started on the "Customer with Children" parking places at the mall and grocery stores. I park in those spaces just for spite!

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I never said "hit" your child.


Hit and spanking are the same for this discussion. Online dictionary says spanking is slapping is hitting. I don't consider it abuse. The debate has been hi-jacked from the Airtran flight and is now just about spanking...IMHO.

You're using a word in a negative context to deliberately skew the argument your way, when the context of my position has lent no such negativity.

No, I am saying spanking is a weak or counter form of influence and guidance. Actually it is a form of control and as I said earlier one cannot control another human being (positively)

Spanking is not for every situation. It's also never, ever done in anger.

Then why do you go to the bathroom to spank your child[ren] in public? Which by the way you haven't responded to twice. Why?

Also you didn't respond to my inquiry about where in our society it is ok to hit/spank. School? Work? Palyground?

Also you dind't reply to my query of- Do you hit your child if they hit thier sibling or friends?

You've avoided the question of whether you have kids; I'm going to guess that you don't.

I think it is pretty clear....There is no way I can be this opinionated on the issue if I didn't.

When you do, we'll have this conversation again. Until then, debating this with you is like trying to have a systems argument with someone who's never flown that type of aircraft.




I never said there was little to no tolerance for them. I simply said that there is behavior that CANNOT be allowed and, when all other discipline options have failed, you have a choice. Let them continue to have their tantrum, or you can take the necessary disciplinary steps to stop it.

Other discipline options have failed? In other words, as the parent you've run out of options, you've reached your limit, understanding and capabilities of the situation and now you are are switching from influence and guidance to command and control. Why should the child have to be hit because you've reached your limitations.......

Otherwise, you TEACH them that their behavior WILL be allowed.

Trust. Trust yourself and your child that the correct behavior will result. It is a big step but you can do it.... Negative behavior doesn't beget positive behavior.


As you can go on with your pacifist child rearing and hope and pray they somehow magically learn borders and accountability later in life once they are old enough to understand those wonderful lectures you must give (even though research clearly shows that patterns they set in early life are nearly impossible to change).

This has nothing to do with pacifism. Again trust. It seems you have difficulting trusting that boarders and accountability will occur. If you go for control, the more they will try to wiggle free...

I truly believe you and the rest of the Walmart trailer trash raising kids I watch having tantrums are doing the best you can with your self-limited disciplinary options.

Personal insults aside, I don't know what Wal mart has to do with this. Sure tantrums are unpleasant but a parent spanking a child in public is ugly.

On the contrary... there are plenty of options... hitting or spanking isn't one of them... perhaps your skillset is limited.....

Who knows, you might get lucky with a passive and meek child and never have a problem. Good luck with that.

So you spank your child....out of fear they might be passive and meek...

This has everything to do with the mindset of the parents and nothing to do with kids....

http://www.nospank.net/main.htm

A quick internet search on child spanking opens the door to physical and mental abuse, sexual abuse, violence, etc....

I am sure you can find a website that says spanking is cool. But one has to weed thru the sex sites.....

http://www.neverhitachild.org/

Spanking is also defined as corpral punishment. An intresting picture showed states where spanking is legal so was lynching...

Rejected by the American Academy of Pediatrics and many other professional associations
http://www.aap.org/healthtopics/violprev.cfm

Hitting, slapping, or spanking children as punishment shows them that it's okay to hit others to solve problems and can train them to punish others in the same way they were punished. Physical punishments stop unwanted behavior only for a short time. Even with very harsh punishment, children may adapt so that it has little or no effect. Using even more punishment is equally ineffective.

​

Many parents think discipline and punishment are the same thing. However, they are really quite different. Discipline is a whole system of teaching based on a good relationship, praise and instruction for the child on how to control his behavior. Punishment is negative; an unpleasant consequence for doing or not doing something. Punishment should only be a very small part of discipline.

Effective discipline should take place all the time, not just when children misbehave. Children are more likely to change their behavior when they feel encouraged and valued, not shamed and humiliated. When children feel good about themselves and cherish their relationship with their parents, they are more likely to listen and learn.
Telling your child how to behave is an important part of discipline, but showing her how to behave is even more significant. Children learn a lot about temper and self-control from watching their parents and other adults interact. If they see adults relating in a positive way toward one another, they will learn that this is how others should be treated. This is how children learn to act respectfully.

​

 

[Shrek]

BEAT those little snotty basturds until they p*ss blood!!!!


kidding.......lol

 

[BVT94]

As it's clear that some of you are not willing to consider another way of discipline, I strongly encourage you to educate yourself on allergies and sensitives. Most children will listen to reason and learn if the right conditions are met. One, your child is not reacting to a food or substance in their environment. Two, the discussion is done with respect and is not a lecture but a vehicle for two-way learning. And three, the rules you are trying to enforce are not arbitrary or without real reasoning.

Almost all children I know have allergies. It's so widespread these days for a number of reasons I won't go into. If your child can't listen, is hyper, has lots of tantrums, you owe it to them to rule out allergies as a potential cause of their behavior. Many, many annoying child behaviors can be eliminated by simply removing the offending food. Sure, if takes some detective work by the parents, but in the end it is soo worth it. One of the most obvious allergies signs that people miss are dark circles under the eyes.

I recommend the following two books:
How to Talk so Kids will Listen and Listen so Kids will Talk by Adele Faber

Is This your Child by Doris Rapp (an eye opening book about allergies)

http://www.amazon.com/How-Talk-Kids..._bbs_sr_1/002-2173394-4838460?ie=UTF8&s=books
The thread may have been hijacked, and even though this be off-topic for this message board, I won't apologize for sticking up for kids. Amazing that parenting is arguably the most important job in the world (for the future of our world) and yet there is no training or licensing required. Amazing that so many of us utilize the same uneducated method our parents used, because,hey, we survived. If surviving is the goal for your child, then go ahead. But if *thriving* is your goal, then it's worth evaulating all the options. Kids are worth all the same quality preparation you'd give for your dream airline job. Maybe you'll get there too.

 

[PCL_128]

Wow. This is unusual. I actually have to agree with Lear in a Lear/Rez debate.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Wow. This is unusual. I actually have to agree with Lear in a Lear/Rez debate.

Because after you spank a child they instantly understand the error of their ways, stop crying (often a spanking results in crying-more annoying behavior) smile and say "Thanks Dad I needed that, I don't know what over came me...."

BTW you don't live in one of those states that coincidently, corporal punishment (spanking) occurs and so did lynching?

 

[Lear70]

I never said "hit" your child.

Hit and spanking are the same for this discussion. Online dictionary says spanking is slapping is hitting. I don't consider it abuse.

Hit and spank are NOT the same for this discussion, which is one of the BIG points of contention here.

Again, you're using them together because you WANT to force the negative connotations that accompany the words "hit" and "children" in the same sentence.

I'm simply not going to allow you to hijack the thread like that and will make sure anyone else reading this understands the CLEAR delineation that exists between spanking and hitting your child.

I don't even know why I'm bothering to debate this, as I really don't give a sh*t HOW you discipline your kids, as long as it works and doesn't negatively impact me or my kids.

At the same time, YOU HAVE NO RIGHT to tell me that my way of parenting is somehow abuse and cannot be tolerated. You can take that idea and shove it WAY up into the unknown.

I think that's what irritates me the most, that some other pilot thinks they know enough about parenting to try to tell me I'm being a bad parent. Here's a hint:

YOU ARE NOT A Ph.D IN CHILD PSYCHOLOGIES OR A CHILD SOCIAL WORKER. You have ZERO creditibility here with your condescending views. The only people agreeing are the ones who think the same way (I think there's 3 of you).

No, I am saying spanking is a weak or counter form of influence and guidance. Actually it is a form of control and as I said earlier one cannot control another human being (positively)

You most absolutely CAN control your child and have an OBLIGATION, both moral and legal, to control your child from letting their behavior damage another person or property, including their personal space and right to exist without YOUR child infringing on it.

You CAN (and should) control them until they LEARN TO CONTROL THEMSELVES.

That's what a parent does!

 

[Lear70]

Spanking is not for every situation. It's also never, ever done in anger.

Then why do you go to the bathroom to spank your child[ren] in public? Which by the way you haven't responded to twice. Why?

I HAVE responded to this. Twice.

But you already know this, evidenced by you DELIBERATE OMISSION in all my quotes, of the section where I talked about it.

Why did you DELIBERATELY ignore that portion of the post? That's very immature. Oh, that's right, it makes a very logical point about how and when spanking would be your last option you would HAVE to exercise while, at the same time, preserving their self esteem. You wouldn't want to reprint anything that weakens your argument.

Here it is again:

You don't publicly spank a child because a child, like any other sentient being, is sensitive to people around them.

When you spank, you are NOT out to embarrass the child; you're NOT out to humiliate the child; you're teaching the child that there is certain behavior that ABSOLUTELY WILL NOT be tolerated after all other discipline options have been exhausted.

That teaching can be done just as effectively behind closed doors and eliminates the negative psychological and emotional damage from being embarrassed as well as punished.

Also you didn't respond to my inquiry about where in our society it is ok to hit/spank. School? Work? Palyground?

Oh, I did... but you chose to ignore it, so I'll spell it out for you in small words:

Never, ever, spank your child in front of other people. Your child is a person, not an animal. Embarrassment is damaging, and a child is more sensitive to embarrassment the older a child gets. Eventually, even verbal discipline requires removing that child to a private area (my 10 year old needs a "chat" at least once a week - she's a pre-teen girl and all the drama that goes with it).

To damage a child's self esteem just because you didn't have the patience to say "excuse me", take the misbehaving child to the bathroom or other private area and take care of the problem is irresponsible parenting.

Incidentally, the 10 year old has been spanked exactly 5 times in her entire LIFE. Once they know what the last form of discipline is, it's usually enough, when you've exhausted all other discipline options, where the simple threat of a spanking nixes 99% of any bad behavior.

Also you dind't reply to my query of- Do you hit your child if they hit thier sibling or friends?

I didn't see that question, my bad.

The answer is yes and no. As a toddler (15 months), my son has started to smack my wife in the face when he doesn't get his way or doesn't want something. Her method of holding his arms while saying "NO." or saying "NO." and setting him down and walking away has NOT been working.

He has never before been spanked, "popped", "hit", whatever YOU want to call it. There's no reason to spank an infant (under 12 months) - they don't understand, and simply saying "No" or just picking him up and removing him from the activity we didn't want him doing and giving him something else to do works perfectly.

This was a new situation for us, and what DID work was, when he did it in front of me, was to say "NO." very firmly (which gets his attention every time), take the hand he slapped her with, pop his hand once with my hand saying "NO." again, then setting him on the floor and both of us walking away for a minute, letting him cry, then picking him up and showing him love and attention in a positive way.

It's been a week since that, and he hasn't done it again. Problem solved.

Our 10 year old doesn't have that problem, probably because she's been taught from an early age not to hit people. If she did hit someone, she's old enough now to be punished in lots of other, more effective ways (psychologically able to understand just about any explanation of why bad behavior isn't tolerable).

Whatever we're doing, it seems to be working well with loving kids, so maybe we're just lucky or maybe our way isn't so bad after all.

Your mileage may vary.

I think it is pretty clear....There is no way I can be this opinionated on the issue if I didn't.

It's never clear until you say absolutely Yes or No.

YOU might make those kind of assumptions from things I say (and your assumptions are wrong more often than right); I won't take your words for granted and make up assumptions like that.

So, yes or no, and what ages and sexes?

Other discipline options have failed? In other words, as the parent you've run out of options, you've reached your limit, understanding and capabilities of the situation and now you are are switching from influence and guidance to command and control. Why should the child have to be hit because you've reached your limitations.......

My child is never, ever hit.

My child receives a spanking if they CHOOSE to continue a behavior that we've explained to them is not allowable.

It's not the end of MY limitations, I could go on rationally explaining the reason their bad behavior is unacceptable all day long while physically restraining the child.

It's reaching the end of the CHILD'S limitations. The child's inability to understand and lack of vocabulary to comprehend what you're saying. Those are limits the CHILD has because of their age - they simply haven't grown and matured enough to understand.

So, again, when you reach that point, you either LET the bad behavior continue, or you use the last option you have: control the behavior, thereby TEACHING the child that they have limits, TEACHING the child what happens when they do NOT respond to verbal discipline alone, then SHOWING your child that they are still loved afterwards.

This isn't rocket science, discipline with love is as old as time itself.

Otherwise, you TEACH them that their behavior WILL be allowed.

Trust. Trust yourself and your child that the correct behavior will result. It is a big step but you can do it.... Negative behavior doesn't beget positive behavior.

You've got to be kidding me. This has absolutely NOTHING to do with trust. A toddler does NOT have an automatic moral and ethical skill set to fall back on.

You can't "trust" that they will automatically know the difference and "choose" better behavior. Small children's minds don't work like that, and that's a FACT, not an opinion.

This has nothing to do with pacifism. Again trust. It seems you have difficulting trusting that boarders and accountability will occur. If you go for control, the more they will try to wiggle free...

As older children, absolutely. As small children, not so much.

Children NEED limitations. They NEED borders. They NEED control. It makes them feel safer and more secure. Hint: that's not my opinion, that comes out of any number of child-raising books.

What you're talking about is a pre-teen / teenager thing.

Personal insults aside, I don't know what Wal mart has to do with this. Sure tantrums are unpleasant but a parent spanking a child in public is ugly.

On the contrary... there are plenty of options... hitting or spanking isn't one of them... perhaps your skillset is limited.....

Personal insults aside? Then you and BVT keep making those snide comments about my skillset / abilities / intelligence lacking?

"Pot, meet kettle".

Tantrums are not only unpleasant, but they're unacceptable, and my children WILL learn that.

Like I said, one of the reasons we have such a big increase in teenage and early 20's crime rate is, in my opinion, largely because parents didn't teach their kids limits as children.

You let the kids just have their tantrums when you can't talk them down, which teaches those kids that they can act out however they want in public. That there are no limits on bad behavior. That no one ELSE'S feelings or right to exist without being kicked or hit during the tantrum matters.

Any wonder they grow up into screwed up kids? On HOW many meds because they just won't self-discipline themselves as teenagers to sit quietly in school, study their work, and listen to the teacher?

Not my kids, no thanks.

Who knows, you might get lucky with a passive and meek child and never have a problem. Good luck with that.

So you spank your child....out of fear they might be passive and meek...

Where the hell did I say that?

Are you off your meds? You can't even GET to the conclusion you drew from what I said without making about 5 incorrect assumptions from what I actually SAID.

With all these gaps in your logic and emotional leaps with no basis in reality, I'm wondering if someone stole your Flightinfo login this week. You're usually nowhere near this easy to poke holes in your logic.

What I DID say what that a passive and meek child MIGHT NOT BE so willful to where they require physical discipline and that, if they had one of those, maybe they would get lucky and never reach a point where a tantrum was uncontrollable by their means so thereby not having to discipline further.

But you already knew that.

Seriously, your re-wording of my sentences trying to skew what I said when my meaning and intent were PERFECTLY CLEAR is the sign of a VERY weak argument. If you can't debate using EXACTLY what I said in the EXACT WAY it was said, then don't bother to debate, as I will call you on it every time.

You're smarter than that.