Air France Flight Missing

[Andy Neill]

There are multiple accidents where the use [misuse?] of Airbus automation has been a factor. Such Boeing events (like the Turks in Amsterdam) are less frequent. I am not a Boeing grandstander by any means but I think the data supports my statement.

 

[Redmeat]

"..the crew didn't realize what "mode" the computer was in. "

Therefore, Pilot error.

However, were there no FBW ( direct mechanical control ) and no "modes" to deal with there would have been no crash.

Hmmm. A conundrum.

Next: Which came first? The Chicken? Or, the Egg?


MKR

Yeah, when the first airline pilot uttered the words "what's it doing now?" we had a whole new slew of problems to deal with.

Had this same AF scenario happened exactly as it did...only in 1968 and the aircraft had been a DC-8, I'd be willing to lay money down we wouldn't be having a discussion about an accident...

 

[filejw]

Try the Paris Air Show years ago when the flight computer landed the jet in the forest. Trying to do a low pass the crew didn't realize what "mode" the computer was in. It was landing. Crews advanced throttles and rotated the aircraft, both actions were overridden by the computer logic. Am I wrong here? It was a long time ago.

Yup you are wrong and it wasn't the Paris Air Show...

 

[414Flyer]

2 bodies found, and a suitcase now too from that flight

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

I shouldn't have gone there without the appropriate headgear, but this guy has it all figured out:

Tinfoil hat alert!

http://chemtrailcentral.com/forum/thread13866.html?sid=1be193f9f57e629ff8f7a5db9465cd72

 

[Redmeat]

2 bodies found, and a suitcase now too from that flight

Brazilian Military reported the 2 recovered bodies were found 69 Kilometers from the location of the last message from the 330.

Not too far considering it's been almost a week.

 

[Sgt. Hartman]

On a Boeing, if I override the autothrottles (just by moving them) or kick the autopilot off, I have control of the airplane. Period. The end.

What about the 777? Do you have control of the airplane? Period. The end. That's a Boeing too, right?

 

[Blue Dude]

Try the Paris Air Show years ago when the flight computer landed the jet in the forest. Trying to do a low pass the crew didn't realize what "mode" the computer was in. It was landing. Crews advanced throttles and rotated the aircraft, both actions were overridden by the computer logic. Am I wrong here? It was a long time ago.

It wasn't the Paris Air Show but never mind. The crew dipped way below their planned fly-by altitude and then expected the airplane to apply corrective thrust. The airplane doesn't behave the same that close to the ground as at higher altitude and refused to override the pilot. The crew was too late applying corrective thrust and they crashed. The crew sat on their hands waiting on a feature demo that wasn't armed. The plane never overrode the crew's commands. The crew simply didn't act until it was too late to matter.

 

[Fedora]

Yup you are wrong and it wasn't the Paris Air Show...

Thanks Filejw for the good catch! Unfortunately, my memory is the second shortest thing I own anymore.
I dug up some info on that one and it seemed that pilot error was a primary factor.
I hope that they find the acft and figure this one out so it might be prevented in the future. Condolences to all those effected by this sad event.
Date: June 26, 1988
Time: 14:45
Location: Habsheim, France
Operator: Air France
Flight number: 296Q
Route: Basel - Basel
AC type: Airbus A320-111
Aboard: 136 (passengers: 130, crew:6)
Fatalities: 3 (passengers: 3, crew:0)

Summary: The plane was scheduled to perform a series of fly-bys at an air show. The plane was to descend to 100 ft. altitude with landing gear and flaps extended. The automatic go-around protection was inhibited for the maneuver. During the maneuver, the plane descended thru 100 ft. to an altitude of 30 feet and hit trees at the end of the runway. The aircraft was totally destroyed by the successive impacts and violent fire which followed. The pilot allowed the aircraft to descend through 100 ft. at slow speed and maximum angle of attack and was late in applying go-around power. Unfamiliarity of the crew with the landing field and lack of planning for the flyby.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EM0hDchVlY&feature=related

 

[Mike man]

Try the Paris Air Show years ago when the flight computer landed the jet in the forest. Trying to do a low pass the crew didn't realize what "mode" the computer was in. It was landing. Crews advanced throttles and rotated the aircraft, both actions were overridden by the computer logic. Am I wrong here? It was a long time ago.

Yes you are wrong, the crew did not advance the thrust levers to TOGA in initiate a go-around. So the airplane thought it was still landing, not the smartest thing in the world...but like they say garbage-in, garbage-out.

"..the crew didn't realize what "mode" the computer was in. "

Therefore, Pilot error.

However, were there no FBW ( direct mechanical control ) and no "modes" to deal with there would have been no crash.

Hmmm. A conundrum.

Sorta...how many go-around's are performed in A320's during a year? How many have had a similar result?

I don't disagree, manual inputs provide a better "feel" but you can't argue with statistics.

 

[Donsa320]

Yes you are wrong, the crew did not advance the thrust levers to TOGA in initiate a go-around. So the airplane thought it was still landing, not the smartest thing in the world...but like they say garbage-in, garbage-out.



Sorta...how many go-around's are performed in A320's during a year? How many have had a similar result?

I don't disagree, manual inputs provide a better "feel" but you can't argue with statistics.

The crew did advance to TOGA but way too late! N1 had only gotten up to 85% when they started hitting trees. Full stick back was also applied but Alpha Protection limited the pitch angle The airplane did all it could and did respond to the pilot inputs but would not let him STALL it, just as advertised. They went through the trees wings dead level and only had 3 deaths. That accident was 20 years ago and still people can't get it straight.

 

[C601]

I found this on a different site...

02:10Z:Autothrust off
Autopilot off
FBW alternate law
Rudder Travel Limiter Fault
TCAS fault due to antenna fault
Flight Envelope Computation warning
All pitot static ports lost

02:11Z:Failure of all three ADIRUs
Failure of gyros of ISIS (attitude information lost)

02:12Z:ADIRUs Air Data disagree

02:13Z:Flight Management, Guidance and Envelope Computer fault
PRIM 1 fault
SEC 1 fault02:14Z:Cabin Pressure Controller fault (cabin vertical speed)

Looks like you need to read up on Introduction to Avionics Systems, If you paid attention and READ the whole page, you would of known your quote is someones interpretation of what happened.

Further more ISIS doesn't have gyros, it has a solid state sensor.

And your a A320 FO lol ..

 

[Mike man]

Looks like you need to read up on Introduction to Avionics Systems, If you paid attention and READ the whole page, you would of known your quote is someones interpretation of what happened.

Further more ISIS doesn't have gyros, it has a solid state sensor.

And your a A320 FO lol ..

Nope, not me...like I said just before pasting the info...I found this on a different site...I didn't interpret the ACARS messages, I was just trying to help. If you had bothered to read my post without jumping to conclusions, you would have discovered that on you own.

I'm not sure what is funnier your post or this "And your a A320 FO lol .." that actually made me laugh. call my wife to read it and she laughed too.

 

[Mike man]

The crew did advance to TOGA but way too late! N1 had only gotten up to 85% when they started hitting trees. Full stick back was also applied but Alpha Protection limited the pitch angle The airplane did all it could and did respond to the pilot inputs but would not let him STALL it, just as advertised. They went through the trees wings dead level and only had 3 deaths. That accident was 20 years ago and still people can't get it straight.

Like I said they did not select TOGA to initiate a go-around, flying through the tops of the trees is a little too late.

 

[Bringupthebird]

Of course had the Q400 been designed with the flight envelope protections of an A320, there may have been 1 less fatal accident this year.

 

[Donsa320]

Like I said they did not select TOGA to initiate a go-around, flying through the tops of the trees is a little too late.

I really do not know what you are trying to say but, showboating on a 2500ft grass runway with a full load of people and then trying to demonstrate Alpha Floor was not too bright either.

DC

 

[svcta]

Everyone, can we keep this thread on topic? We all have our opinions of the Airbus philosophy, but this thread was doing a good job of staying on point until this.

Has anyone heard anything else after the news about having found 2 bodies? I heard this morning that AF was "ramping up" the replacement of pitot tubes on their fleet because of problems with erroneous input to the systems. What do we know about this?

 

[Redmeat]

Has anyone heard anything else after the news about having found 2 bodies?

3 more bodies found. Total of 5 now. Plus, verified pieces of the ac.

US NAVY gear is on the way, arrives tomorrow that will be used to try and locate the CVR and FDR.

 

[Princedietrich]

CNN International is now saying the count is 17....

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

You'd think that a P-3 with sonobuoys - ones that can find a sub that is trying to hide - could find a CVR and FDR that wants to be found.

Any one have info on that aspect?