Air France Flight Missing

[N1VIBS]

You'd think that a P-3 with sonobuoys - ones that can find a sub that is trying to hide - could find a CVR and FDR that wants to be found.

Any one have info on that aspect?

Speaking of subs. Saw on the news this a.m. that someone (USA or France??) is sending a submarine to the area. I know zero about submarines, but don't they have that "super secret" sonar stuff that can pick up noise (pings from the FDR and CVR) for miles around? Any ex submariners on here?

 

[densoo]

Air France pilots' union has put out recommendations to its pilots to refuse to fly a plane that doesn't have the new pitot tubes.

http://translate.google.com/transla...arch?q=le+monde&hl=en&rls=com.microsoft:en-us

 

[EdAtTheAirport]

Someone tell me what the issue is with the pitot tubes. Are they aerodynamically deficient, or is it a matter of heating? What's the theory of the link to the AF 447 crash?

 

[Amish RakeFight]

They just recovered the tail section of 447.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/09/world/americas/09plane.html?hp

 

[densoo]

Someone tell me what the issue is with the pitot tubes. Are they aerodynamically deficient, or is it a matter of heating? What's the theory of the link to the AF 447 crash?

From the NYT article in previous post:

On Sunday, Dominique Bussereau, the French secretary of state for transportation, told RTL radio that the authorities were focusing on a transmission from the plane, during the last minutes of flight, indicating that airspeed readings on its onboard systems were inconsistent.
“The series of readings represent the only real element for investigators at this moment,” he said. In particular, they were reviewing the performance of a Pitot tube, part of the speed measurement system.
“There have been situations on Airbus planes, and perhaps on others, where these tubes no longer indicated the airspeed because it entered a humid area, a low-pressure area, an area of turbulence,” he added. If the Flight 447 pilots could not read the correct speed, the plane could have been flying too slowly or too fast, with deadly results.
French investigators announced Saturday that the plane had been scheduled to have its Pitot tube replaced, but it remained unclear whether the part had malfunctioned or had anything to do with the crash.

 

[filejw]

The crew did advance to TOGA but way too late! N1 had only gotten up to 85% when they started hitting trees. Full stick back was also applied but Alpha Protection limited the pitch angle The airplane did all it could and did respond to the pilot inputs but would not let him STALL it, just as advertised. They went through the trees wings dead level and only had 3 deaths. That accident was 20 years ago and still people can't get it straight.

This acident reminds me of something i see a lot in people new to glass. Instead of saying "whats it doing now" pilots should be looking through the FMC and glass to make sure the a/c is doing what they want..

 

[Lear70]

I'm not buying anything about the pitot tubes quite yet...

There's WAY too many other avionics faults in a VERY short time period to be blaming pitot tubes as the primary cause this early in the investigation sequence.

Sounds like a distraction from AF and Airbus, but I always look for the black helicopters first (just to make sure they really AREN'T sneaking up behind me...)

 

[Princedietrich]

Seems to me that the problem wouldn't be so much with the pitot tubes but perhaps with the computers they are feeding information to. I mean a pitot tube is a simple pneumatic device with no electrons flowing through it at all (except the heater of course) but an electrical fault could wipe out the computer easily. With that barrage of avionics and electrical failure message, maybe that's what happened? Of course we'll never know for sure until they find that FDR.

 

[EuroWheenie]

densoo

A very small Aır France unıon, representıng less than 4% of the pılot corps - and only pılots from what used to be Aır Inter - ıs makıng noıses. Nothıng unusual about that; it is one of those radical and ideologically driven unions which live in a different world than the rest of us. They usually calls for strikes on a monthly basis; last time they did so a massive 4 (four) pilots stayed at home. For all intents and purposes a non-event - but it looks good on the headlines and the unwashed masses will of course cling to it.

Vertical stabiliser has been recovered, ın one piece ıncl. rudder.

 

[EdAtTheAirport]

Still doesn't answer my question. What do they mean the pitot tubes don't "indicate airspeed" in a humid area (like a cloud), or a low pressure area (like at altitude), or turbulence? How does an airplane get certified with non-working pitot tubes?

This doesn't make sense, and if it doesn't make sense, it's not true. -- Judge Judy

I say red herring.

 

[FlickerFade]

You'd think that a P-3 with sonobuoys - ones that can find a sub that is trying to hide - could find a CVR and FDR that wants to be found.

Any one have info on that aspect?

sound travels in different channels in water based upon temperature, pressure, and salinity. Getting buoys in the proper place to detect an object 10,000 ft or below is incredibly hard. then, getting a location on the object is harder. A submarine is way more reliable given its ability to change depths and having more sensors, but even a standard sub can't travel that deep.

It's just a very tough scenario.

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

sound travels in different channels in water based upon temperature, pressure, and salinity. Getting buoys in the proper place to detect an object 10,000 ft or below is incredibly hard. then, getting a location on the object is harder. A submarine is way more reliable given its ability to change depths and having more sensors, but even a standard sub can't travel that deep.

It's just a very tough scenario.

Most of what I know is from reading "Hunt for Red October," so not much. Any idea how deep towed arrays for the destroyers and subs go?

 

[FlickerFade]

Most of what I know is from reading "Hunt for Red October," so not much. Any idea how deep towed arrays for the destroyers and subs go?

I'm not sure about boats

but they would be much better prepared for a sustained search than a plane, their limit is in their ability to transit a large search area quickly.

 

[EdAtTheAirport]

Do subs have pitot tubes that work in high humidity???

 

[EdAtTheAirport]

So it's been like five days since the last comment -- and that was me. Has this tragedy fallen off the radar screen in deference to our own issues here in the US? Do we really care?

 

[Whine Lover]

Brad and Angelina might be splitting up. That overshadows everything....



.

 

[belchfire]

I'm out of country so to speak-BBC is covering the Paris Airshow 100th Edition and they are making point of how EADS is carrying on about the outstanding safety record of their aircraft...in between reports about the floating Vertical Stab-so it's not off the radar world wide at least!

 

[Fedora]

Most of what I know is from reading "Hunt for Red October," so not much. Any idea how deep towed arrays for the destroyers and subs go?

Most of that ASW stuff is done in the first couple of thousand feet of water where subs operate. They can use the bottom to bounce sonar waves off of, but aren't looking for anything on the bottom.
I suspect special equipment towed at deep depths will be required. Just my two cents.

 

[Andy Neill]

This new item today form MSNBC indicates the likelihood of an breakup before impact due to clothing being torn off and the nature of the injuries on the recovered bodies.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31410033/ns/world_news-americas/

 

[CesnaCaptn]

Nova: Crash of Flight 447 premiers on 2/16/11. You can watch it now on Netflix.

Although the "black boxes" haven't been found, Nova did a pretty good job of coming up with one compelling reason for the crash.

If you lost your airspeed indicators at altitude, would you know what thrust and pitch attitude to maintain?