Air Force to UAL New Hire

[DCAA320]

So I (a punty little 10 year regional Captain) was making friendly banter with a United Pilot commuting from RIC to EWR today. I asked him what airplane he was on. He said the 737. Well thinking that because he was on the 737 in EWR he must be relatively new, I asked how long he had been with UAL. He said that he had been there since September, and he explained that he liked it a lot. Going along with the friendly mood of the conversation, I asked where he worked before. He said that he was with the Air Force. I then asked how he thought the transition from military to civilian life was. His reply blew me away!!!

He said, "Well United does not do a very good job of training Military Pilots". They have a lot to learn about what we need to learn!"

What the hell?!?!? Could he be serious? Shouldn't he already know how to do the job?





Why is he more qualified than the thousands of regional pilots if he needs "special training".

X

Because maybe he can fly the plane better than you, but needs some CRM enhancement depending on his background. Many older civilian captains are lost as far as CRM so his unfamiliarity is not unfamiliar. Maybe the airline knows he will show up to work on time. Too many variables.

 

[DCAA320]

Or.. because many are the typical "yes" "get the mission done" types that have a hard time learning to fly the contract and uphold the CBA. Seen it too many times.

Had a captain like you at AE, read me the riot act because I got to parking lot in 30 minutes while we had stranded pax. I just said listen MF, I am he to fly my ass off and get the fu(k out. He was like you should always take the 2 hours or whatever it was back then because the CBA said so. Well he is probably still there or flowed through.

 

[pilotyip]

remember these military pilots get their comm/MEL/inst by taking a 40 question test on part 91, they may not fly in the civilian world for years after getting that ticket They fly by an almost complete different set of rules compared to the civilian world. Flying the airplane is not the big deal, inst skills are inst skills, it is moving into a new operating environment that has a steep learning curve.

 

[Turtle21]

It may have to do with how the Military and Airlines go about their business. Flows vs. Read and do checklists are just the start of the fun.
It would have been nice if he would have forwarded his concerns to the UAL Training Committee because they have former military drivers in that committee that could have made his training go a lot smoother.

There are only three things any new pilot needs to know.

Study your ass off because your training period is extremely abbreviated because a pilot is not generating revenue in training.

Smile and "just be happy to be here". You are here. Nobody cares what you did before you were here.

Save all your constructive comments for the day after you retire. You and your retired buddies will need stuff to talk about.

 

[waveflyer]

Because maybe he can fly the plane better than you, but needs some CRM enhancement depending on his background. Many older civilian captains are lost as far as CRM so his unfamiliarity is not unfamiliar. Maybe the airline knows he will show up to work on time. Too many variables.

Please^^^

 

[waveflyer]

remember these military pilots get their comm/MEL/inst by taking a 40 question test on part 91, they may not fly in the civilian world for years after getting that ticket They fly by an almost complete different set of rules compared to the civilian world. Flying the airplane is not the big deal, inst skills are inst skills, it is moving into a new operating environment that has a steep learning curve.

Which is why military pilots should have to fly in the regionals for a while

They're flat out unqualified for major airline jobs in 2014

 

[General Lee]

You are so full of crap as usual.

A 6 month course front to back includes the 95% of stuff you do beyond what it takes to taxi, takeoff and land, which is all you ever do in the airlines.

Most of those courses firehose you with less than a week or two of academics, tests, a few sims, and your butt is in the jet inside two weeks. To do a takeoff, landing and some approaches. Which is all you ever do in an airline.

Then you spend 5.5 months figuring out how to do that and drop bombs or pallets or such.

Yeah ok ding a ling! The 727 FE course was tougher than you buying your type, I know that! I've talked to plenty of AF guys, and that's what they've told me, it's fairly laid back. You are the one full of poop, as usual. Get over yourself, Ice.......man....


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[wms]

Don't hate the playa, hate the game.... And, learn to debate while you're at it.

This one is easy. Most Air Force pilots (I've flown with tons of them) have 6 month courses to learn a new AF plane. Obviously, an airline course is like a "fire hose" to them.

As far as why AF pilots are chosen over a Regional pilot? I would bet most HR people think that if the AF spent time and money training him and testing him over his/her career, then he or she should be able to fly a 737 etc.


Bye Bye---General Lee

We have recently had a surge of mil pilots, from heavies to fighters and from all branches. They have been awesome to fly with and IOE is a non-event compared to the last couple years. When I ask why they came here I get two reasons; The majors have been telling them to get some 121 time and our HR has been actively recruiting them.

I'm sure most of them won't be here long, but I've had a great time flying with them. We have also been actively recruiting 135 and corporate pilots with success and those pilots have been excellent also.

Now with some time passing since the 1500 hour rule, the University pilots are at the 1000 hour mark and they have been completing training recently. The problem is the FAA has been slow to issue the waivers, so qualified and trained pilots are sitting home getting paid until the FEDs catch up.

 

[CCDiscoB]

He said, "Well United does not do a very good job of training Military Pilots". They have a lot to learn about what we need to learn!"
What the hell?!?!? Could he be serious? Shouldn't he already know how to do the job?
Why is he more qualified than the thousands of regional pilots if he needs "special training".

Ok he could have worded it more tactfully. I would have said that us military pilots aren't used to the airlines and I certainly could have used a sim on just learning how to fly final approach. Some mil guys are not used to those big wings. Heck, I still "S" down final! He also needs to be careful how he talks to other airline pilots. Some can be very sensitive. This isn't the military anymore where we give each other crap all the time. Oh...and airline training is an absolute fire hose!! One guy told me it was harder than weapon's school! Yes the AF could easily shorten many of its courses. They make some of them 6 months so its a permanent change of station (PCS) to save on TDY cost.
Cheers!
:beer:

 

[Grandpa +65]

I'd rather have a regional pilot in the right seat, than a Air Force puke.

 

[SIG600]

Which is why military pilots should have to fly in the regionals for a while

They're flat out unqualified for major airline jobs in 2014

Yeah, because you can't learn the nuances on the line. Seems the hiring departments at every major airline would disagree with you at the rate mil buds of mine are getting picked up.

What the OPs discussion was referring too was that the UAL school house is a type course, with a tiny amount of operational discussion. You hit the line for IOE trip one with a type rating and not much else. Very OJT. If he came from the USAF it's very different. Navy however does it the same, train to proficiency and learn the rest on the job.

How is learning deice procedures in ORD any different in the right seat of an RJ or an A320? One is just a place you actually want to be.

 

[waveflyer]

Why do civilian pilots have to learn the "nuances" at a regional, while unqualified mil pilots get to learn it at the end goal major, building seniority and longevity at the good job? Eh sig? How does that make sense in your world?

There is no good reason civilian pilots have to have 7000-10000 hours to be "competitive" while military pilots keep getting hooked up through the good ole boy network

I'd argue for equal- I love many of our military pilots- great pilots- great guys- but it's my background that's being DISCRIMINATED against and it's compete utter BS- SWA just out a class through with 26 out of 30 military pilots-

Arguing for equal has got us a 12% hiring rate at one of the best jobs in the industry when the facts and data show that civilians are far more qualified and ready for training and the line.

I'll tell you what skill military pilots bring- there are enough of you who know how to attain positions and massage the beaurocratic red tape of large organizations to keep the good ole boy network alive and intact.

 

[pilotyip]

I'll tell you what skill military pilots bring- there are enough of you who know how to attain positions and massage the beaurocratic red tape of large organizations to keep the good ole boy network alive and intact.

No I think there is better explanation.

Its 4 pm. You've been on the road since 7 am going to Walt Disney World. You have a wife, and three kids in the car under 8. Your wife just gave you "I'm hangry" look (angry/hungry combined). There's an exit ahead, and on the left is a TGIF Fridays, a McDonalds, and a Taco Bell. On the right is a local place?"Mom's Diner"?.with plenty of cars in the lot. Where do you stop to eat?

Now--if you were solo--you might be adventurous, but most of you would probably say "?with kids I'd go to Mickey Ds or a known joint?" Doing that, you might miss out on the best chicken fried steak or coconut pie you ever ate. Or you might miss out on a horrible case of the screaming ********************s seventy miles down the road. Being pragmatic, and understanding that Wally World, not food, is the goal you hedge your bets...

Airlines do the same thing. Military guys are McDonalds. We are known, measured, and predictable. Are we the best culinary delight on the road? Probably not. And the fact is about 90% of my fellow fighter brethren struggle in their first few sims at the airline because they can't land in a crosswind with a slip technique, still learning the lingo, etc etc. Yet they get hired. How come? They are Big Macs, Quarter Pounders, and the known product, and they will work (eventually) pretty darn well to fill the need. The regionals like Skywest, ASA, Exp Jet, Pinnacle, etc during the late 90s and 2000s became a somewhat similar homogenized product.

You 135 guys? Dunno. Some of you are awesome. Some of you are terrible. How does the airline figure it out? What if they are wrong? So--overall--sticking with the known eliminates some risk. Again--I'm not hear to rack and stack your talent?most of you probably fly more GPS approaches and have been into more places than I have. My ability to time out a shot on a bandit with an Aim-120 while killing another at the merge with an Aim-9 doesn't really help a whole lot when I am flying the Civet into LAX. But--the airlines know what they get with me--where I will do well and where I will suck and need extra effort. Its that KNOWN factor that makes the puppy mills and military so appealing to the majors.

Not justifying it?just explaining how I think the voodoo works?.

Not saying the mil guys are superior to regional pilots, but there is a uniformity of a standard product that makes hiring people comfortable. Almost anyone can get hired at a regional, not everyone can get a slot in a military cockpit.

 

[Turtle21]

No I think there is better explanation.

Its 4 pm. You've been on the road since 7 am going to Walt Disney World. You have a wife, and three kids in the car under 8. Your wife just gave you "I'm hangry" look (angry/hungry combined). There's an exit ahead, and on the left is a TGIF Fridays, a McDonalds, and a Taco Bell. On the right is a local place?"Mom's Diner"?.with plenty of cars in the lot. Where do you stop to eat?

Now--if you were solo--you might be adventurous, but most of you would probably say "?with kids I'd go to Mickey Ds or a known joint?" Doing that, you might miss out on the best chicken fried steak or coconut pie you ever ate. Or you might miss out on a horrible case of the screaming ********************s seventy miles down the road. Being pragmatic, and understanding that Wally World, not food, is the goal you hedge your bets...

Airlines do the same thing. Military guys are McDonalds. We are known, measured, and predictable. Are we the best culinary delight on the road? Probably not. And the fact is about 90% of my fellow fighter brethren struggle in their first few sims at the airline because they can't land in a crosswind with a slip technique, still learning the lingo, etc etc. Yet they get hired. How come? They are Big Macs, Quarter Pounders, and the known product, and they will work (eventually) pretty darn well to fill the need. The regionals like Skywest, ASA, Exp Jet, Pinnacle, etc during the late 90s and 2000s became a somewhat similar homogenized product.

You 135 guys? Dunno. Some of you are awesome. Some of you are terrible. How does the airline figure it out? What if they are wrong? So--overall--sticking with the known eliminates some risk. Again--I'm not hear to rack and stack your talent?most of you probably fly more GPS approaches and have been into more places than I have. My ability to time out a shot on a bandit with an Aim-120 while killing another at the merge with an Aim-9 doesn't really help a whole lot when I am flying the Civet into LAX. But--the airlines know what they get with me--where I will do well and where I will suck and need extra effort. Its that KNOWN factor that makes the puppy mills and military so appealing to the majors.

Not justifying it?just explaining how I think the voodoo works?.

Not saying the mil guys are superior to regional pilots, but there is a uniformity of a standard product that makes hiring people comfortable. Almost anyone can get hired at a regional, not everyone can get a slot in a military cockpit.

Maybe the Navy is McDonalds, but the Air Force is Subway or Chic-Fil-A.

 

[pilotyip]

Maybe the Navy is McDonalds, but the Air Force is Subway or Chic-Fil-A.

Actually that post came from a F-15 guy on the "other place", for a Navy guy after being on a boat, Mac D's is a treat after weeks of mystery meat covered with brown gravy on white rice.