Air Force to UAL New Hire

[IBNAV8R]

Pretty much guarantee the guy with float plane time as much better stick and rudder skills than the average AF guy.

I've flown with 300-hour private pilots whom I would trust with my family many times more than a 1,500-hour military guy. I've also flown with some high-time military guys who are absolutely fabulous.

What matters is the attitude you bring to the cockpit - way more than anything in your logbook.

The bigger the chip on their shoulder, the bigger the (male appendage) they are. There also seems to be an inverse correlation between one's braggadocio and that person's flying skill. Those tend to be the ones "monitoring" for much of their time with me.

 

[Turtle21]

Pretty much guarantee the guy with float plane time as much better stick and rudder skills than the average AF guy.

I've flown with 300-hour private pilots whom I would trust with my family many times more than a 1,500-hour military guy. I've also flown with some high-time military guys who are absolutely fabulous.

What matters is the attitude you bring to the cockpit - way more than anything in your logbook.

The bigger the chip on their shoulder, the bigger the (male appendage) they are. There also seems to be an inverse correlation between one's braggadocio and that person's flying skill. Those tend to be the ones "monitoring" for much of their time with me.

Example of Skill #3.

 

[pilotyip]

Why is the failure rate so much higher then for civilian background guys compared to military background guys. BTW. I have flown with 19000 hour pilot I would not trust my family with

 

[CCDiscoB]

I've flown with 300-hour private pilots whom I would trust with my family many times more than a 1,500-hour military guy.

Really?! uke:Many times over!! Slight exaggeration I'm thinking.
I'd like to see you choose the pilot when your family has to fly out of an airport in Colorado, after a ski vacation. Somehow I doubt Mr. 300hrs is going to be selected.

 

[Guppiedriver]

When I go to the sim, I know I am gonna fly better than the other guy, and the instructor.

Lol. What a homo.

 

[waveflyer]

Why is the failure rate so much higher then for civilian background guys compared to military background guys. BTW. I have flown with 19000 hour pilot I would not trust my family with

That data isn't accurate today yip-
Flat out
I have data from 3 majors- you're wrong

 

[pilotyip]

That data isn't accurate today yip-
Flat out
I have data from 3 majors- you're wrong

Well I have my own data from my airline that you don't have access to

 

[Russ]

DCAA320

"If for one second you think you can out fly a Naval Aviator (% rise), you need to think again bitch. Do military guys know your CBA and 117 .... NOPE not at all. That will be OJT"

As far as CBA, I sure hope that isn't covered during any official, sanctioned OJT, aka IOE or OOE, etc.

Disco
"I'd like to see you choose the pilot when your family has to fly out of an airport in Colorado, after a ski vacation. Somehow I doubt Mr. 300hrs is going to be selected"

I personally would like to put my family on a plane flown by someone specifically trained to operate at the ski city airports, be they civilian or military.

Signed,

A pilot specifically trained to operate at Colorado ski city airports.

 

[rjacobs]

Why is the failure rate so much higher then for civilian background guys compared to military background guys. BTW. I have flown with 19000 hour pilot I would not trust my family with

As a caveat I am a 100% civilian pilot, but have many buddies who are in military aviation.

Here is my take on one possibility.

As a straight civilian pilot you take VERY few check rides and training is generally pretty relaxed and most flying you do to gain hours is, again, fairly relaxed. We dont have the "if you fail you are out" or a strict "if you dont do this in 10 hours, you are out" mentality like the military. So when it comes to check rides and structured, high speed training like the airlines have, the nerves act up to a high degree.

As a military pilot it seems, again from what I know from my buddies and other second hand knowledge, that they are always training and checking and what not from day 1 and their overall system is constantly high speed hence the guys with 200 hours flying F18's and doing carrier landings. Most of their flying isnt all that relaxed its training, more training, and combat. So when it comes to high speed training and checking events, again, such as airline training, they dont get all worked up about it because its "the norm".

Take both guys and put them on the line and the straight civilian pilot is now back in his element of a fairly relaxed atmosphere and he becomes a good stick all the sudden because he isnt nervous. Now put the military guy on the line and the relaxed atmosphere is out of the norm, but their skills dont change because they werent nervous to begin with.


Again, just a theory I am throwing out that might be one reason for what you see.

 

[RJLoser]

Seen hackers and great sticks from both sides of the fence. No difference.

 

[Russ]

"I have flown with 19000 hour pilot I would not trust my family with"

Very true. Bud Holland showed that rank and experience aren't everything if not accompanied by a lot of other intangables. Applicable to both civ and mil.

 

[IBNAV8R]

Really?! uke:Many times over!! Slight exaggeration I'm thinking.
I'd like to see you choose the pilot when your family has to fly out of an airport in Colorado, after a ski vacation. Somehow I doubt Mr. 300hrs is going to be selected.

I guess I never realized the military trained all their pilots in high-altitude mountain operations. The instance I have in mind would be ESPECIALLY true in the high rocks.

 

[Dan Roman]

When I go to the sim, I know I am gonna fly better than the other guy, and the instructor.

There is, in fact, a term for folks like you. It's ****************************** bag. Your comment indicates you have weak CRM skills, which is a very important component to being a good airline pilot.
There is good and not so good from both backgrounds, but the fact that you think "having landed on carrier" is synonymous with being a superior airline pilot pretty much identifies you with being clueless. I've known an awful lot of really good ex military pilots, just as good as any civil pilot. But they all let their flying do their talking. The cocky ones tend to be the weaker pilots who are rarely as good as they think they are.

 

[IBNAV8R]

"I have flown with 19000 hour pilot I would not trust my family with"

Very true. Bud Holland showed that rank and experience aren't everything if not accompanied by a lot of other intangables. Applicable to both civ and mil.

There's a great book called, "Darker Shades of Blue" by Tony Kern.

Attitude is everything (OK, ALMOST, everything)

 

[pilotyip]

As a caveat I am a 100% civilian pilot, but have many buddies who are in military aviation.

Here is my take on one possibility.

As a straight civilian pilot you take VERY few check rides and training is generally pretty relaxed and most flying you do to gain hours is, again, fairly relaxed. We dont have the "if you fail you are out" or a strict "if you dont do this in 10 hours, you are out" mentality like the military. So when it comes to check rides and structured, high speed training like the airlines have, the nerves act up to a high degree.

As a military pilot it seems, again from what I know from my buddies and other second hand knowledge, that they are always training and checking and what not from day 1 and their overall system is constantly high speed hence the guys with 200 hours flying F18's and doing carrier landings. Most of their flying isnt all that relaxed its training, more training, and combat. So when it comes to high speed training and checking events, again, such as airline training, they dont get all worked up about it because its "the norm".

Take both guys and put them on the line and the straight civilian pilot is now back in his element of a fairly relaxed atmosphere and he becomes a good stick all the sudden because he isnt nervous. Now put the military guy on the line and the relaxed atmosphere is out of the norm, but their skills dont change because they werent nervous to begin with.


Again, just a theory I am throwing out that might be one reason for what you see.

You are on to something here, there is rarely a flight in your first couple of years in a squadron where is not some training objective. Trained to written procedures from day one, so you go to an airline and it has written SOP; that is how you do it. Anyone can do it, I just the mil guys get it in big doses from day. Probably here could be landing on aircraft carrier at 125 hours if that went through the same training I did. BTW It may be that the college programs now take on that same method.

 

[IBNAV8R]

I believe it was Curtis LeMay who started to wonder why most of the accidents seemed to have something in common. "We can't figure it out, he was the best stick in the unit." It seemed the "average" guys had relatively few mishaps.

 

[DCAA320]

Lol. What a homo.

You earned your nickname mr "sky nazi."

 

[waveflyer]

Well I have my own data from my airline that you don't have access to

Yeah, sure.
It's just you

Maybe the good civilians aren't applying to your job.

I say all this knowing the caveat that has hurt us in the argument is absolutely true: there are many weak civilian pilots. Not everyone with civilian backgrounds are the best. Of course not, and I still argue for better professional development on the civilian side.

The arrogance that I see is this notion that the military doesn't have many weak pilots in their ranks just the same as the civilian. Not bad enough to wash out, but not good

Why is that such a difficult concept for a military pilot to accept. Civilians deserve an EQUAL spot at the table at least.

And for those of you just lurking- mil pilots have a pretty god awful reputation on the line

(That would be AFTER training. You know the real part of our job. )

 

[pilotyip]

I believe it was Curtis LeMay who started to wonder why most of the accidents seemed to have something in common. "We can't figure it out, he was the best stick in the unit." It seemed the "average" guys had relatively few mishaps.

What he found was every time there was an accident he was told the pilot was one of hottest pilots in the outfit. So he started wondering why average pilots did not crash. What he found out was that average pilots did things like checklists followed SOP and operated within the design envelope of the airplane. SAC became known as the SOP nazis under Lemay

 

[DCAA320]

There is, in fact, a term for folks like you. It's ****************************** bag. Your comment indicates you have weak CRM skills, which is a very important component to being a good airline pilot.
There is good and not so good from both backgrounds, but the fact that you think "having landed on carrier" is synonymous with being a superior airline pilot pretty much identifies you with being clueless. I've known an awful lot of really good ex military pilots, just as good as any civil pilot. But they all let their flying do their talking. The cocky ones tend to be the weaker pilots who are rarely as good as they think they are.

No moron, there needs to be a level of competency.

For example, flying into Europe last week the civilian captain is verbally going over the missed approach procedures, except he was out of order so I am like no no no (so was the IRO) it's like this. WTF

My point is mil guys will know memory items and limits at the very least.

Also why do you civilians fall asleep so fast?

You don't know jack ******************** about CRM so don't try to preach to me.

 

[Dan Roman]

No moron, there needs to be a level of competence.

For example, flying into Europe last week the civilian captain is verbally going over the missed approach procedures, except he was out of order so I am like no no no (so was the IRO) it's like this. WTF

Also why do you civilians fall asleep so fast?

You don't know jack ******************** about CRM so don't try to preach to me.

Actually, you don't know me so you don't know what my background is ( your mistaken about my experience with CRM) Your other mistake is generalizing about mistakes as being exclusively a civil or military issue. Pilots from ALL backgrounds make mistakes. It's the perception that one or the other is more prone that is erroneous. Again, the most dangerous are the ones that think they are somehow immune to mistakes because of their background.

You are making generalization's because you don't have the experience or ability to see reality. Almost all military pilots are outstanding, so are almost all civil pilots, there are weak in both ranks though.

 

[sat74]

We fall asleep fast so we don't have to deal with arrogant dbags like you!

 

[DCAA320]

We fall asleep fast so we don't have to deal with arrogant dbags like you!

Seriously, I bring 2 ipads and cannot believe someone would bring nothing to read on a 10 hour flight.

 

[Dan Roman]

We fall asleep fast so we don't have to deal with arrogant dbags like you!

That's a good point even if it was said tongue in cheek. Any pilot that constantly complains about co workers, whatever the reason, is generally the cause of the problem. Most pilots from all backgrounds are fine ( once you get to an airline you do, in fact, meet a general level of competence). If an individual is having problems with who he is flying with it is because HE is the problem. It simply is not that hard to competently get the job done, unless you are a doosh. In that case, YOU are the problem. Not the people you are working with.

 

[Dan Roman]

Seriously, I bring 2 ipads and cannot believe someone would bring nothing to read on a 10 hour flight.

Dude, you keep burying yourself as being self important and judge mental.
You really are no better than those you are pointing fingers at. No ones perfect, you sound like one of those that finds fault with others to try and make yourself look better.

 

[DCAA320]

.........

 

[DCAA320]

That's a good point even if it was said tongue in cheek. Any pilot that constantly complains about co workers, whatever the reason, is generally the cause of the problem. Most pilots from all backgrounds are fine ( once you get to an airline you do, in fact, meet a general level of competence). If an individual is having problems with who he is flying with it is because HE is the problem. It simply is not that hard to competently get the job done, unless you are a doosh. In that case, YOU are the problem. Not the people you are working with.

My bad, more exception than the rule, but I don't expect guys to pass out 30 minutes into the flight.

I like most of my co-workers.

 

[sat74]

My bad, more exception than the rule, but I don't expect guys to pass out 30 minutes into the flight.

I like most of my co-workers.

But do your co-workers like YOU? Probably not after reading your posts. Going back to sleep now...

 

[DCAA320]

But do your co-workers like YOU? Probably not after reading your posts. Going back to sleep now...

They touch me a lot, as far as female FA, so u tell me.

 

[pilotyip]

Maybe the good civilians aren't applying to your job.

That is most likely true. The only true airline people we have had apply are guys who lost their jobs, like Comair, Airborne, UPS, etc. They go through training and checking with no problems, but they do not stay long while looking for their next job. But we get a lot civilian pilots who have not been through a sturctered training program, they have a high failure rate. The miitarty guys we get are normally guys who have not flown for a few years and want to get back into flying airplanes or helo pilots with low fixed wing time. They are as easy to train as the experienced airline guys, even though their flight time is much lower. They understand a structured airline training environment, call outs, checklists, profiles, etc. One thing I never hear from the militarily guys is "Well that is not the way we did it at XYZ, this sucks". I think we turn out a decent product, we have not had any of our pilots who made PIC at JUS fail in their next job. They go places like SWA, AAL, DAL, JB, UPS, FedEx, etc