Air Force to UAL New Hire

[waveflyer]

remember these military pilots get their comm/MEL/inst by taking a 40 question test on part 91, they may not fly in the civilian world for years after getting that ticket They fly by an almost complete different set of rules compared to the civilian world. Flying the airplane is not the big deal, inst skills are inst skills, it is moving into a new operating environment that has a steep learning curve.

Which is why military pilots should have to fly in the regionals for a while

They're flat out unqualified for major airline jobs in 2014

 

[General Lee]

You are so full of crap as usual.

A 6 month course front to back includes the 95% of stuff you do beyond what it takes to taxi, takeoff and land, which is all you ever do in the airlines.

Most of those courses firehose you with less than a week or two of academics, tests, a few sims, and your butt is in the jet inside two weeks. To do a takeoff, landing and some approaches. Which is all you ever do in an airline.

Then you spend 5.5 months figuring out how to do that and drop bombs or pallets or such.

Yeah ok ding a ling! The 727 FE course was tougher than you buying your type, I know that! I've talked to plenty of AF guys, and that's what they've told me, it's fairly laid back. You are the one full of poop, as usual. Get over yourself, Ice.......man....


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[wms]

Don't hate the playa, hate the game.... And, learn to debate while you're at it.

This one is easy. Most Air Force pilots (I've flown with tons of them) have 6 month courses to learn a new AF plane. Obviously, an airline course is like a "fire hose" to them.

As far as why AF pilots are chosen over a Regional pilot? I would bet most HR people think that if the AF spent time and money training him and testing him over his/her career, then he or she should be able to fly a 737 etc.


Bye Bye---General Lee

We have recently had a surge of mil pilots, from heavies to fighters and from all branches. They have been awesome to fly with and IOE is a non-event compared to the last couple years. When I ask why they came here I get two reasons; The majors have been telling them to get some 121 time and our HR has been actively recruiting them.

I'm sure most of them won't be here long, but I've had a great time flying with them. We have also been actively recruiting 135 and corporate pilots with success and those pilots have been excellent also.

Now with some time passing since the 1500 hour rule, the University pilots are at the 1000 hour mark and they have been completing training recently. The problem is the FAA has been slow to issue the waivers, so qualified and trained pilots are sitting home getting paid until the FEDs catch up.

 

[CCDiscoB]

He said, "Well United does not do a very good job of training Military Pilots". They have a lot to learn about what we need to learn!"
What the hell?!?!? Could he be serious? Shouldn't he already know how to do the job?
Why is he more qualified than the thousands of regional pilots if he needs "special training".

Ok he could have worded it more tactfully. I would have said that us military pilots aren't used to the airlines and I certainly could have used a sim on just learning how to fly final approach. Some mil guys are not used to those big wings. Heck, I still "S" down final! He also needs to be careful how he talks to other airline pilots. Some can be very sensitive. This isn't the military anymore where we give each other crap all the time. Oh...and airline training is an absolute fire hose!! One guy told me it was harder than weapon's school! Yes the AF could easily shorten many of its courses. They make some of them 6 months so its a permanent change of station (PCS) to save on TDY cost.
Cheers!
:beer:

 

[Grandpa +65]

I'd rather have a regional pilot in the right seat, than a Air Force puke.

 

[SIG600]

Which is why military pilots should have to fly in the regionals for a while

They're flat out unqualified for major airline jobs in 2014

Yeah, because you can't learn the nuances on the line. Seems the hiring departments at every major airline would disagree with you at the rate mil buds of mine are getting picked up.

What the OPs discussion was referring too was that the UAL school house is a type course, with a tiny amount of operational discussion. You hit the line for IOE trip one with a type rating and not much else. Very OJT. If he came from the USAF it's very different. Navy however does it the same, train to proficiency and learn the rest on the job.

How is learning deice procedures in ORD any different in the right seat of an RJ or an A320? One is just a place you actually want to be.

 

[waveflyer]

Why do civilian pilots have to learn the "nuances" at a regional, while unqualified mil pilots get to learn it at the end goal major, building seniority and longevity at the good job? Eh sig? How does that make sense in your world?

There is no good reason civilian pilots have to have 7000-10000 hours to be "competitive" while military pilots keep getting hooked up through the good ole boy network

I'd argue for equal- I love many of our military pilots- great pilots- great guys- but it's my background that's being DISCRIMINATED against and it's compete utter BS- SWA just out a class through with 26 out of 30 military pilots-

Arguing for equal has got us a 12% hiring rate at one of the best jobs in the industry when the facts and data show that civilians are far more qualified and ready for training and the line.

I'll tell you what skill military pilots bring- there are enough of you who know how to attain positions and massage the beaurocratic red tape of large organizations to keep the good ole boy network alive and intact.

 

[pilotyip]

I'll tell you what skill military pilots bring- there are enough of you who know how to attain positions and massage the beaurocratic red tape of large organizations to keep the good ole boy network alive and intact.

No I think there is better explanation.

Its 4 pm. You've been on the road since 7 am going to Walt Disney World. You have a wife, and three kids in the car under 8. Your wife just gave you "I'm hangry" look (angry/hungry combined). There's an exit ahead, and on the left is a TGIF Fridays, a McDonalds, and a Taco Bell. On the right is a local place?"Mom's Diner"?.with plenty of cars in the lot. Where do you stop to eat?

Now--if you were solo--you might be adventurous, but most of you would probably say "?with kids I'd go to Mickey Ds or a known joint?" Doing that, you might miss out on the best chicken fried steak or coconut pie you ever ate. Or you might miss out on a horrible case of the screaming ********************s seventy miles down the road. Being pragmatic, and understanding that Wally World, not food, is the goal you hedge your bets...

Airlines do the same thing. Military guys are McDonalds. We are known, measured, and predictable. Are we the best culinary delight on the road? Probably not. And the fact is about 90% of my fellow fighter brethren struggle in their first few sims at the airline because they can't land in a crosswind with a slip technique, still learning the lingo, etc etc. Yet they get hired. How come? They are Big Macs, Quarter Pounders, and the known product, and they will work (eventually) pretty darn well to fill the need. The regionals like Skywest, ASA, Exp Jet, Pinnacle, etc during the late 90s and 2000s became a somewhat similar homogenized product.

You 135 guys? Dunno. Some of you are awesome. Some of you are terrible. How does the airline figure it out? What if they are wrong? So--overall--sticking with the known eliminates some risk. Again--I'm not hear to rack and stack your talent?most of you probably fly more GPS approaches and have been into more places than I have. My ability to time out a shot on a bandit with an Aim-120 while killing another at the merge with an Aim-9 doesn't really help a whole lot when I am flying the Civet into LAX. But--the airlines know what they get with me--where I will do well and where I will suck and need extra effort. Its that KNOWN factor that makes the puppy mills and military so appealing to the majors.

Not justifying it?just explaining how I think the voodoo works?.

Not saying the mil guys are superior to regional pilots, but there is a uniformity of a standard product that makes hiring people comfortable. Almost anyone can get hired at a regional, not everyone can get a slot in a military cockpit.

 

[Turtle21]

No I think there is better explanation.

Its 4 pm. You've been on the road since 7 am going to Walt Disney World. You have a wife, and three kids in the car under 8. Your wife just gave you "I'm hangry" look (angry/hungry combined). There's an exit ahead, and on the left is a TGIF Fridays, a McDonalds, and a Taco Bell. On the right is a local place?"Mom's Diner"?.with plenty of cars in the lot. Where do you stop to eat?

Now--if you were solo--you might be adventurous, but most of you would probably say "?with kids I'd go to Mickey Ds or a known joint?" Doing that, you might miss out on the best chicken fried steak or coconut pie you ever ate. Or you might miss out on a horrible case of the screaming ********************s seventy miles down the road. Being pragmatic, and understanding that Wally World, not food, is the goal you hedge your bets...

Airlines do the same thing. Military guys are McDonalds. We are known, measured, and predictable. Are we the best culinary delight on the road? Probably not. And the fact is about 90% of my fellow fighter brethren struggle in their first few sims at the airline because they can't land in a crosswind with a slip technique, still learning the lingo, etc etc. Yet they get hired. How come? They are Big Macs, Quarter Pounders, and the known product, and they will work (eventually) pretty darn well to fill the need. The regionals like Skywest, ASA, Exp Jet, Pinnacle, etc during the late 90s and 2000s became a somewhat similar homogenized product.

You 135 guys? Dunno. Some of you are awesome. Some of you are terrible. How does the airline figure it out? What if they are wrong? So--overall--sticking with the known eliminates some risk. Again--I'm not hear to rack and stack your talent?most of you probably fly more GPS approaches and have been into more places than I have. My ability to time out a shot on a bandit with an Aim-120 while killing another at the merge with an Aim-9 doesn't really help a whole lot when I am flying the Civet into LAX. But--the airlines know what they get with me--where I will do well and where I will suck and need extra effort. Its that KNOWN factor that makes the puppy mills and military so appealing to the majors.

Not justifying it?just explaining how I think the voodoo works?.

Not saying the mil guys are superior to regional pilots, but there is a uniformity of a standard product that makes hiring people comfortable. Almost anyone can get hired at a regional, not everyone can get a slot in a military cockpit.

Maybe the Navy is McDonalds, but the Air Force is Subway or Chic-Fil-A.

 

[pilotyip]

Maybe the Navy is McDonalds, but the Air Force is Subway or Chic-Fil-A.

Actually that post came from a F-15 guy on the "other place", for a Navy guy after being on a boat, Mac D's is a treat after weeks of mystery meat covered with brown gravy on white rice.

 

[waveflyer]

I never flew 135 yip

The thread is about the regional pilot who's been doing the EXACT SAME JOB into tougher places, on harder schedules for years, that they are being asked to do for the major - and not getting even close to an equal opportunity.

That age old adage of "known quantity" doesn't fly anymore when you have tens of thousands of RJ pilots applying-

Again- at southwest 26/30 military.

Are you saying the Republic, Skywest, air Wisconsin pilots of the world deserve that kind of ratio in favor of military.

And screw that known quantity - that's not true. A fighter guy is going to give you different things from a c130 from a Kc-10 or c5.

The military has a diversity of flying- the most applicable being transport heavies and 737 type crew environments- to the least applicable being fighters-
And yet what gets applied to the hiring process: the military pecking order of fighter guys first.

It's dumb and it ought to be a lawsuit if it's this slanted.

The regional pilot who's been doing the EXACT SAME JOB is much more of a known quantity than a military guy who is still figuring out how to do a cross wind landing.

It's the old guard hiring their own. Plain and simple. How did they get to be the old guard? Bc they got hooked up when they were young.

I respect the military and their pilots but am done taking a backseat to them-

Especially at southwest where we have that ridiculous pain in the ass Phoenix base
There is nothing cultural that the air tran purchase could bring us that would be worse than the ripple effect of the 1990's meet and greet "hire every military pilot" and mold them into a self entitled dou<hebag" program we had.

Sounds like it's back up and running in 2014 so far and I apologize to those very qualified good attitude regional guys

 

[waveflyer]

And with that, I'll bow out-
The FI world knows what I think

I actually care about this subject and apologize for going down the FI troll route-

Please debate it without me hammering each post

 

[Quimby]

No, it's because they have been around the block and hope they can provide some stability to the system which loves to see a group of errant pilots vote themselves out of a job. Maybe that's why airlines love the military guy, we want the job to last.

I don't even know where to begin on this one.

Let's start with the "been around the block" comment. Say you're a brand new captain, first month after upgrading. You're heading to LGA, EWR, DCA, BOS (or fill in the busy airport of your choice). The weather sucks, you get to the "jet" and have an equally new FO. Would you rather have a guy/girl who just finished new hire IOE after flying a desk for 3 or the last 5 years, or a regional guy/girl who's been to these airports (or was maybe even based there) for the last 10 years? Tell me again who's "been around the block"?

As far as the "wanting the job to last" comment. Really? Give me a break.

 

[General Lee]

I don't even know where to begin on this one.

Let's start with the "been around the block" comment. Say you're a brand new captain, first month after upgrading. You're heading to LGA, EWR, DCA, BOS (or fill in the busy airport of your choice). The weather sucks, you get to the "jet" and have an equally new FO. Would you rather have a guy/girl who just finished new hire IOE after flying a desk for 3 or the last 5 years, or a regional guy/girl who's been to these airports (or was maybe even based there) for the last 10 years? Tell me again who's "been around the block"?

As far as the "wanting the job to last" comment. Really? Give me a break.

Look at the source. ScoreboardIII has eleven pinkie fingers, according to his buddy Red-liar.....


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Turtle21]

Actually that post came from a F-15 guy on the "other place", for a Navy guy after being on a boat, Mac D's is a treat after weeks of mystery meat covered with brown gravy on white rice.

Just having fun. The Air Force has become the branch of service for the anorexic.

 

[sat74]

I'll go to the mom and pop joint over any chain any day. Support local. End chains that contribute to the obesity epidemic that plagues our country, and cockpit. One thing is deadly clear... There is obvious discrimination against civilian pilots being hired today at the majors. AA is 99% military, SWA 95%, DL 90%, etc. It's ridiculous. All one has to do to to confirm this is look at the applications that specifically ask of you are an astronaut or fighter pilot. Seriously, get over yourselves. Let's get a class action going!

 

[RJLoser]

Think these hiring decisions go beyond who is a better pilot. Airlines are focused more than ever on hiring specific "traits."

 

[CCDiscoB]

The Air Force has become the branch of service for the anorexic.

Umm....what?? I don't get it? Skinny dudes?

 

[DCAA320]

Please^^^

If for one second you think you can out fly a Naval Aviator (% rise), you need to think again bitch. Do military guys know your CBA and 117 .... NOPE not at all. That will be OJT.

I task you to go out and land on a pitching deck with no horizon. Oh, u cannot.

Seriously wave, go fu(k yourself.

 

[booo]

If for one second you think you can out fly a Naval Aviator (% rise), you need to think again bitch. Do military guys know your CBA and 117 .... NOPE not at all. That will be OJT.

I task you to go out and land on a pitching deck with no horizon. Oh, u cannot.

Seriously wave, go fu(k yourself.

Seriously, DAAA320. ... You are a ******************************. Oh my god ! A pitching deck !!! It's always into the wind , isn't it!!! In the real world it's crosswinds and you have no idea how to handle it, do you?. And you have the most up to date tech to back you up, even with this "pitching deck" that is NOT real life in real life.

The military TOLD you that you are the best, brightest, boldest, baddest, motherforking pilots on the planets. And you are (were)!!!!! NOW GET OVER IT!!! BECAUSE You ARE NOT ANYMORE!!Except that you have been trained for one and only one "mission " You are trained just as far as the grunt on the ground that you refer to as "cannon fodder".

You (ex military) are the joke. The Navy pilot hits the numbers regardless of the g load to the passengers. The Air Force pilot makes a greaser ignoring the runway length. The civilian pilot makes a choice depending on the conditions.

Out fly you ? Any of the Civilian kids I have ever flown with over you military pukes.