Air Attack/Tanker, Helo Pilots

[psysicx]

Thanks avbug for the good info. Does one need more experience to single engine aircraft? Do you have to be certified or is there certifications that helps out when looking for a job? And for those looking the forrest service is looking again in Ogden Utah.

 

[TDTURBO]

Nothing wrong with Fresno.

Yes there is, it's in California.

 

[f9driver]

DC-4 Boy, you smell of "jerk" to me. Military Pilots can't cut it! It sounds like a real case of envy. I've flew Navy A-4's for 5 years through a lot of smoke and fire. I've flown the S2f and also the P2V-5F for two years in the Navy Reserve. We did 30 deg. rocket runs in the P-2 and I flew with a guy who did them a lot steeper. With a little intial coaching I think most Navy Attack or Patrol types could master the techniques of the job. Your lack of knowledge of what military pilots do should encourage you to keep your judgments to yourself. If the criteria is to wash and wax the airplane because the operator is too cheap to get a line boy....then NO!....he is probably too financially unhealthy anyhow.

 

[DC4boy]

Steep rocket runs a 200+kts and a controlled environment!!! Not even close!


Try again. I was simply stating facts. No jealousy, no envy. I certanly ment no disrespect.

 

[DC4boy]

This, unfortunately, has turned into a pissing contest. Several Navy attack and patrol pilots have had initial, and extensive "coaching" and have killed themselves.

A good friend and a former Top Gun instructor, now a tanker pilot, would agree with me.

 

[inline]

Probably the biggest issue there isn't the skills, but the willingness to work. We don't see that from certain expeience-backgrounds. Face it, if you were told you have to hand wash your boeing every night before you leave the airport, fly it without air conditioning, and fly it into the conditions that we do, for an indefinite period with little time off, no stability, and that you'll be living out of the back of the airplane for the next five or ten months with five to fifteen minutes notice at any time to go fly, how excited would you be? If it's a radial powered airplane, you'll get dirty, burned, cut, poked with safety wire, and while the days of flying all day and turning wrenches all night are gone, you'll still be carrying tools and getting dirty. Ever spent the evening or morning scrubbing thick burned-on oil and retardant off of a DC-4 or C-130, then hand polishing and/or waxing it yourself?

Try it some time, and then you'll start to get an understanding of why those who live a shirt-and-tie have-everyone-else-do-the-work-for-you background isn't really conducive to flying an air tanker. No slight on anybody, but it's the truth.

Warbird experience isn't much of a shoe-in, and won't help someone upgrade any faster. Especially with the limited movement in the industry.



I don't know where you came up with that, but one couldn't get carded for fire if that were true. VFR-only? Not hardly. Part of every season began in a simulator for me, and part of training was always instrument work. VFR-only in low vis in smoke and haze? Not hardly. My first tanker type ride was a very solid IFR ride to ATP standards (engine-out circling, etc), as well as on the job working demonstrations with drops, emergencies on the drops, and so forth.

Very solid VFR skills are an absolute must, and tankers seldom operate under IFR...except for very long empty repositioning flights. However, I can't recall ever being on a tanker dispatch where having an airline pilot on board would have been of any benifit in any way, shape, or form. Thanks for the chuckle.

I can recall very long positioning flights that would have been impossible with a crew of vfr pilots.

Don't know what planet you've been on, but there were tanker pilots in the 90s with vfr C-130 type ratings. Didn't need a normal type to get carded. Are you gonna tell me that these guys are competent to operate in the IFR environment?

Chuckle on that.

They're the best in the world at mountain contour flying but most ( not all) aren't very good on the gauges and they'll admit it. Oh, and airline pilots gladly pitch in
for cleaning and mx as well. No prima donnas here. The operator I flew for had a mix of all type of pilots with varied backgrounds and everybody pitched in. And we managed to help contain fires.



Oh yea, on your predicted response, can we get the readers digest version?

 

[cdog]

May, 1994, during a ferry flight from Central America to Calgary, I stopped in Billings for fuel. Shortly after landing, a USFS guy came to me and told me that they needed my airplane, a DHC6 to fly smoke jumpers. He was apperently authorized to commander acft if needed.
The per hr that they were offering was by far more than what we made off the things carrying pax. I was all over it, great, making money with a run out 30,000hr twotter was a gift. They had the paper work ready to be signed, crew ready. All I had to do was once around the patch with the pilot to please our insurance and let it go. Last minute, someone finally noticed that the acft wasn't US registered. I said no problem, I'm a TRE for the country of registration, I'll issue a temporary CPL. The big boss said no way, oh well.
Anyway, I met some of the tanker pilots and it would be a great fraternity to be included in. Great, down to earth, fun bunch that were nothing but professional when it came to their field.
As Avbug says, it's probably persistance that gets you in. I come from an ag background, round and turbine but they told me to hang around for a few yrs. Turn wrenches at Hawkins and Powers or other and you'll get your chance.
By the way, I doubt if their IFR skills pose a problem, it ain't that difficult.

 

[MTpilot]

H & P is over.

 

[avbug]

May, 1994, during a ferry flight from Central America to Calgary, I stopped in Billings for fuel. Shortly after landing, a USFS guy came to me and told me that they needed my airplane, a DHC6 to fly smoke jumpers. He was apperently authorized to commander acft if needed.
The per hr that they were offering was by far more than what we made off the things carrying pax. I was all over it, great, making money with a run out 30,000hr twotter was a gift. They had the paper work ready to be signed, crew ready. All I had to do was once around the patch with the pilot to please our insurance and let it go. Last minute, someone finally noticed that the acft wasn't US registered. I said no problem, I'm a TRE for the country of registration, I'll issue a temporary CPL. The big boss said no way, oh well.

Bull. WAY too many holes in that one to let it pass. The USFS has never worked that way.

I can recall very long positioning flights that would have been impossible with a crew of vfr pilots.

Tanker crews have always been required to hold instrument ratings; it's part of the carding requirement. I've flown tankers coast to coast and never ever met a crew that would have had any difficulty in any way, shape, or form with ferrying an airplane. What a load of crap.

Don't know what planet you've been on, but there were tanker pilots in the 90s with vfr C-130 type ratings. Didn't need a normal type to get carded. Are you gonna tell me that these guys are competent to operate in the IFR environment?

Again, lies. I flew those airplanes...including the C-130. VFR type? Not hardly, and the government never would have permitted such a thing. Most all tanker pilots hold an ATP. My tanker type rides were full blown ATP/type rides with all the trimmings, and my FE ride (in the C-130 you describe) was a full FE type, no corners cut. Nice try.

Are you gonna tell me that these guys are competent to operate in the IFR environment?

Yes, we are.

DC-4 Boy, you smell of "jerk" to me. Military Pilots can't cut it! It sounds like a real case of envy. I've flew Navy A-4's for 5 years through a lot of smoke and fire. I've flown the S2f and also the P2V-5F for two years in the Navy Reserve. We did 30 deg. rocket runs in the P-2 and I flew with a guy who did them a lot steeper. With a little intial coaching I think most Navy Attack or Patrol types could master the techniques of the job. Your lack of knowledge of what military pilots do should encourage you to keep your judgments to yourself. If the criteria is to wash and wax the airplane because the operator is too cheap to get a line boy....then NO!....he is probably too financially unhealthy anyhow.

Flying steep has nothing to do with flying a tanker. Try flying that P-2 with 9 less crewmembers, and nobody around to go cut the wire and swap your valves by the MAD cone for the varicam in an emergency...you're the crew chief, maintenance and support squadron, the whole nine yards.

Line boy? You never know where you'll be at the end of the day, or one minute to the next...nothing to do with a company being too cheap to hire someone to wash the airplane...if you're flying it, that's your job, and it's a critical part of your preflight and/or postflight. Your attitude is exactly what I'm talking about, and exactly why people like yourself would never make it on the fireground.

Nobody there to wipe your hind end for you...nobody to do all your work for you. You do it. That's a big part of why most of the prima donnas who come out to play go home.

What a load of claptrap.

 

[cdog]

Avbug, No reason to b.s., pm me and I'll give you the details.

 

[f9driver]

Military and Tankers

Avbug, we routinely flew the P-2 with 3 guys in the Reserve. The others were only needed when flying ASW searches, etc. Why are you so swift to smear the military pilots?
Oh, I could learn to fly the a/c at 180-200 and partial flaps. What do you think we did in the military.... fly "canned, Prussian-like rote procedures"? If so many of you guys hadn't got academic deferments or kissed the Docs on the draft physicals maybe you would have learned more about what military pilots do. I have watched P-2s, Stoofs and DC-4's fight fires on many occasions. Have you watched P-2s at 200 ft. on a moonless night flying a tight Mad pattern? You possess the often quoted "legend in your own mind" syndrome. Tell it to your mama or at the bar. There are too many guys on these threads who have been there.

 

[DC4boy]

F9driver, your response is so typical of the mil pilots I have seen trying to get into the tanker biz. "I've seen it done, dosent look too dificult."

Nobody here has smeared Mil pilots. I have the highest respect and admiration for them.

However, thats apples, and this is oranges. Catch my drift?

You dont have the first clue about aerial firefighting, and I dont have the first clue about military flying. I just know what I know.

I dont clearly understand Mad missions, or what that entails. I assume its over the water and in a controlled environment. Comparing apples and oranges again.

Being 26 years old, I missed the draft you were refering to. I wanted to fly in the Navy, but being 6'6" with a C avrage and defective color vision, it was a long shot.

I guess I'll try and wash the "jerk" smell off now........

 

[MTpilot]

Whoa!

This thread has gone terribly wrong. Just take it easy, every pilot knows he's the best in the world, the trick is you're supposed to keep it to yourself.

 

[NookyBooky]

I'm sorry I asked. I had no idea this would turn into a d#ck measuring contest, but let me see if I have this straight. No one type of pilots make good tanker pilots unless of course they are tanker pilots, right?









*Disclaimer for those who might get their panties in a wad: sarcasm is present in the above post.

 

[avbug]

F9driver does indeed display the exact attitude to which I referred...the very reason that so many of his own ilk don't cut it in the industry. I never suggested that he might be unable to do so, but merely that historically, the worst backgrounds for the job are such as his own...for the very reasons he has clearly just demonstrated. One might suppose he would be quite put out to learn that he would be nothing more than a copilot for the next five to ten years on the job...just like everybody else. That's the typical reaction, expected, and demonstrated, by mr. driver.

Yes, the question has been asked, and answered. Usually folks don't like the answer they get...but the facts are indeed, what they are.

I don't believe anybody ever said that merely because someone has a military background they can't do the job...that's not the case. I believe I noted, and have noted before, that even at H&P, the chief pilot, and the owners were former military. They also were the first to state, publically, they'd never hire another airline or military pilot because of the well established track record from folks in that arena...their observations, not mine.

I should note, as an aside, that the chief pilot of an established fractional operation commented to me that the worst applicants he received were airline...he strongly preferred any other applicant. Not a jelousy issue, but a track record issue...and his observation, not mine. Does this mean that airline pilots can't fly? Of course not. Does it mean that airline pilots are somehow something that others are not? Of course not. It is what it is; an observation by an established person in management, and nothing more.

For whatever it's worth, a jet charter operation for whom I flew, one of the largest operators of that aircraft type on that coast, was owned and operated by former career military personnel, both officer and enlisted. Top management was quite adamant that they would never hire another military pilot, or furloughed airline pilot. Just prior to my leaving, they did hire a furloughed pilot, who took their type training, flew one trip, and left to go elsewhere...like the previous six pilots whom they had typed...five military and one airline. Not my observations, but those of folks with have a leg to stand on, with millions of their own dollars invested, who have been burned by the attitudes of those with their own backgrounds. Go figure. But I digress...

I spent five hours working several fires in several states today, working alongside MAFFS units...that's right...military pilots engaged in aerial firefighting. What has that to do with the price of tea in china? Nothing. A poster asked a question, it was answered, and some here didn't like what they heard. Tough. Deal with it.

Now, F9driver has suggested I am displaying a "legend in my own mind" syndrome, though I have said nothing about my own abilities, prowness, or reputation here. Merely stated what is, and what is the case in the industry. I also stated that most wouldn't want to do this work, historically most who do want to do it don't make it in the industry, and that there are no openings for those who do have the desire and could possibly make it. I have a very difficult time making the correlation between these honest answers and being deluded into thinking I am a legend, or that these facts and observations represent any self-inflation...as they don't have anything to do with me at all. This would be instead, an effort by f9driver to cloud the issue with personal attacks; he feels wounded by these observations, has taken them personally for whatever reason, and feels the need to respond at a lower level. So be it. Again, deal with it.

I've been labled here, along with apparently the rest of the industry, as a draft dodger or one who obtained an academic deferrment to military service...again, thanks for the chuckle at that asinine, misplaced attempt at humor. You're the expert, apparently.

Just not at firefighting. Perhaps you ought not try to be.

Oh, I could learn to fly the a/c at 180-200 and partial flaps.

Congratulations. I'm sure you could...though I have no idea what that has to do with the conversation at hand. Do you?

No one type of pilots make good tanker pilots unless of course they are tanker pilots, right?

That would be your observation, and your words, which would at best be an abberation of the discussion. Nobody here said any such thing...except you.

No background is particularly conducive to becoming a tanker pilot, and that's already been stated. Asked and answered. Having a military background will not give you a big step up, a foot in the door. Having a warbird background will not give you a big step up, a foot in the door. Having an airline background will not give you a big step up, a foot in the door. Being persistant, and willing to understand that you're on the same footing along with everybody else, no matter what your background when you start, will be the right attitude with which to approach the industry. Too many pilots who are accustomed to having accolades and respect and epaulets and rank and grade and titles are put out when they learn that they're not a "first officer" but a copilot, and that they'll be getting their hands dirty for a long time to come.

If that's not for you, if you can't accept being on the same standing and status as everybody else, that your honors and background mean nothing and don't impress anybody here, then move on. No harm, no foul. Just so long as you understand before coming in the door what the score is, then you have nothing to worry about. It's a small industry, and folks here will bend over backward to help you, if it's what you want. If it's not what you want, then what do you care? Go do something else, and every one will be much happier for it, least of all, yourself.

If instead, holier-than-thou is your bag, if you feel you have something to teach the industry, if you expect anybody here to be in any way impressed with you or your background, then you're wasting your time, my time, and everyone else's time in this business. No time for that childishness; it's a working job, not a glamorous one, and swagger has no place here. It's a hot, dirty, sweaty, loud and often violent business. You won't win awards, won't get your picture taken, won't be the subject of a ticker tape parade. You'll do your job, collect what you can while you can, and either move on at some point or quietly die of cancer with nothing more to show for your efforts than time in a logbook and some sage advice for those who are willing to listen.

For those who are not, who would rather thrust out their manhood and measure it against their deluded perceptions, the advice is wasted and there is nothing more to offer than a curt nod, and the final counsel, move on, best of luck to you, have a nice life. It's been a pleasure...