Air Attack/Tanker, Helo Pilots

[psysicx]

Thanks avbug for the good info. Does one need more experience to single engine aircraft? Do you have to be certified or is there certifications that helps out when looking for a job? And for those looking the forrest service is looking again in Ogden Utah.

 

[TDTURBO]

Nothing wrong with Fresno.

Yes there is, it's in California.

 

[f9driver]

DC-4 Boy, you smell of "jerk" to me. Military Pilots can't cut it! It sounds like a real case of envy. I've flew Navy A-4's for 5 years through a lot of smoke and fire. I've flown the S2f and also the P2V-5F for two years in the Navy Reserve. We did 30 deg. rocket runs in the P-2 and I flew with a guy who did them a lot steeper. With a little intial coaching I think most Navy Attack or Patrol types could master the techniques of the job. Your lack of knowledge of what military pilots do should encourage you to keep your judgments to yourself. If the criteria is to wash and wax the airplane because the operator is too cheap to get a line boy....then NO!....he is probably too financially unhealthy anyhow.

 

[DC4boy]

Steep rocket runs a 200+kts and a controlled environment!!! Not even close!


Try again. I was simply stating facts. No jealousy, no envy. I certanly ment no disrespect.

 

[DC4boy]

This, unfortunately, has turned into a pissing contest. Several Navy attack and patrol pilots have had initial, and extensive "coaching" and have killed themselves.

A good friend and a former Top Gun instructor, now a tanker pilot, would agree with me.

 

[inline]

Probably the biggest issue there isn't the skills, but the willingness to work. We don't see that from certain expeience-backgrounds. Face it, if you were told you have to hand wash your boeing every night before you leave the airport, fly it without air conditioning, and fly it into the conditions that we do, for an indefinite period with little time off, no stability, and that you'll be living out of the back of the airplane for the next five or ten months with five to fifteen minutes notice at any time to go fly, how excited would you be? If it's a radial powered airplane, you'll get dirty, burned, cut, poked with safety wire, and while the days of flying all day and turning wrenches all night are gone, you'll still be carrying tools and getting dirty. Ever spent the evening or morning scrubbing thick burned-on oil and retardant off of a DC-4 or C-130, then hand polishing and/or waxing it yourself?

Try it some time, and then you'll start to get an understanding of why those who live a shirt-and-tie have-everyone-else-do-the-work-for-you background isn't really conducive to flying an air tanker. No slight on anybody, but it's the truth.

Warbird experience isn't much of a shoe-in, and won't help someone upgrade any faster. Especially with the limited movement in the industry.



I don't know where you came up with that, but one couldn't get carded for fire if that were true. VFR-only? Not hardly. Part of every season began in a simulator for me, and part of training was always instrument work. VFR-only in low vis in smoke and haze? Not hardly. My first tanker type ride was a very solid IFR ride to ATP standards (engine-out circling, etc), as well as on the job working demonstrations with drops, emergencies on the drops, and so forth.

Very solid VFR skills are an absolute must, and tankers seldom operate under IFR...except for very long empty repositioning flights. However, I can't recall ever being on a tanker dispatch where having an airline pilot on board would have been of any benifit in any way, shape, or form. Thanks for the chuckle.

I can recall very long positioning flights that would have been impossible with a crew of vfr pilots.

Don't know what planet you've been on, but there were tanker pilots in the 90s with vfr C-130 type ratings. Didn't need a normal type to get carded. Are you gonna tell me that these guys are competent to operate in the IFR environment?

Chuckle on that.

They're the best in the world at mountain contour flying but most ( not all) aren't very good on the gauges and they'll admit it. Oh, and airline pilots gladly pitch in
for cleaning and mx as well. No prima donnas here. The operator I flew for had a mix of all type of pilots with varied backgrounds and everybody pitched in. And we managed to help contain fires.



Oh yea, on your predicted response, can we get the readers digest version?

 

[cdog]

May, 1994, during a ferry flight from Central America to Calgary, I stopped in Billings for fuel. Shortly after landing, a USFS guy came to me and told me that they needed my airplane, a DHC6 to fly smoke jumpers. He was apperently authorized to commander acft if needed.
The per hr that they were offering was by far more than what we made off the things carrying pax. I was all over it, great, making money with a run out 30,000hr twotter was a gift. They had the paper work ready to be signed, crew ready. All I had to do was once around the patch with the pilot to please our insurance and let it go. Last minute, someone finally noticed that the acft wasn't US registered. I said no problem, I'm a TRE for the country of registration, I'll issue a temporary CPL. The big boss said no way, oh well.
Anyway, I met some of the tanker pilots and it would be a great fraternity to be included in. Great, down to earth, fun bunch that were nothing but professional when it came to their field.
As Avbug says, it's probably persistance that gets you in. I come from an ag background, round and turbine but they told me to hang around for a few yrs. Turn wrenches at Hawkins and Powers or other and you'll get your chance.
By the way, I doubt if their IFR skills pose a problem, it ain't that difficult.

 

[MTpilot]

H & P is over.

 

[avbug]

May, 1994, during a ferry flight from Central America to Calgary, I stopped in Billings for fuel. Shortly after landing, a USFS guy came to me and told me that they needed my airplane, a DHC6 to fly smoke jumpers. He was apperently authorized to commander acft if needed.
The per hr that they were offering was by far more than what we made off the things carrying pax. I was all over it, great, making money with a run out 30,000hr twotter was a gift. They had the paper work ready to be signed, crew ready. All I had to do was once around the patch with the pilot to please our insurance and let it go. Last minute, someone finally noticed that the acft wasn't US registered. I said no problem, I'm a TRE for the country of registration, I'll issue a temporary CPL. The big boss said no way, oh well.

Bull. WAY too many holes in that one to let it pass. The USFS has never worked that way.

I can recall very long positioning flights that would have been impossible with a crew of vfr pilots.

Tanker crews have always been required to hold instrument ratings; it's part of the carding requirement. I've flown tankers coast to coast and never ever met a crew that would have had any difficulty in any way, shape, or form with ferrying an airplane. What a load of crap.

Don't know what planet you've been on, but there were tanker pilots in the 90s with vfr C-130 type ratings. Didn't need a normal type to get carded. Are you gonna tell me that these guys are competent to operate in the IFR environment?

Again, lies. I flew those airplanes...including the C-130. VFR type? Not hardly, and the government never would have permitted such a thing. Most all tanker pilots hold an ATP. My tanker type rides were full blown ATP/type rides with all the trimmings, and my FE ride (in the C-130 you describe) was a full FE type, no corners cut. Nice try.

Are you gonna tell me that these guys are competent to operate in the IFR environment?

Yes, we are.

DC-4 Boy, you smell of "jerk" to me. Military Pilots can't cut it! It sounds like a real case of envy. I've flew Navy A-4's for 5 years through a lot of smoke and fire. I've flown the S2f and also the P2V-5F for two years in the Navy Reserve. We did 30 deg. rocket runs in the P-2 and I flew with a guy who did them a lot steeper. With a little intial coaching I think most Navy Attack or Patrol types could master the techniques of the job. Your lack of knowledge of what military pilots do should encourage you to keep your judgments to yourself. If the criteria is to wash and wax the airplane because the operator is too cheap to get a line boy....then NO!....he is probably too financially unhealthy anyhow.

Flying steep has nothing to do with flying a tanker. Try flying that P-2 with 9 less crewmembers, and nobody around to go cut the wire and swap your valves by the MAD cone for the varicam in an emergency...you're the crew chief, maintenance and support squadron, the whole nine yards.

Line boy? You never know where you'll be at the end of the day, or one minute to the next...nothing to do with a company being too cheap to hire someone to wash the airplane...if you're flying it, that's your job, and it's a critical part of your preflight and/or postflight. Your attitude is exactly what I'm talking about, and exactly why people like yourself would never make it on the fireground.

Nobody there to wipe your hind end for you...nobody to do all your work for you. You do it. That's a big part of why most of the prima donnas who come out to play go home.

What a load of claptrap.

 

[cdog]

Avbug, No reason to b.s., pm me and I'll give you the details.