Anyone out there flying fires this season? I just reverted back to Air Attack this past week, as our jet is in the process of being sold. I spent the better part of the last 2 weeks flying on the Southern Nevada Complex. On a side note, it sure was nice to have more heavies to help suppress this fire that was bigger than the state of Rhode Island.
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Air Attack/Tanker, Helo Pilots
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NookyBooky
Beach Bum Extraordanaire
psysicx said:
Yes it is.
NookyBooky
Beach Bum Extraordanaire
Did you guys go into firefighting from ag work, the airlines, military, A&P or what? I'm just curious because it seem so different from any other type of flying and I'm wondering what makes you qualified in the eyes of an employer to do it. Also, how long do you think the Neptunes and old DC's will be around?
How long will the P2's be around? We can only guess. Until some other pinheaded fool tries to stake his career on destroying the industry, ala Tony Kern, et al, this last go-around. Hopefully a long time. The Douglass products are for the most part, history, with the exception of some private state contracts. More is the pity, because they have perhaps the best safety record of all.
As far as getting into fire work, there's no background that will prepare you or give you an edge. If you're going to fly single engine air tankers, an ag background is a good start...pretty much a requisite to meet basic insurance requirements is a thousand hours of ag. For large air tankers, plan on no vacancies for ten to twenty years.
Having a mechanic certificate is a big plus; most everyone flying tankers turns wrenches on them, or is qualified to do so. Not all, but most.
If backgrounds are to be considered, an ag background is probably best, airline and military the worst. One company for whom I flew, although staffed in management by former military, staunchly refused to even entertain anyone with an airline or military background because of the extremely poor track record of those who had come and gone before. No slight...but not one I ever met made it very far in the tanker world. Most didn't want to get their hands dirty, couldn't make the commitment, didn't want to work, and when it came to flying slow and close to terrain under the conditions required in limited performance aircraft, felt it was too dangerous or beneath them. A few exceptions exist, but not many.
Conversely, coming from tankers to an airline environment...many employers look unfavorably on a tanker past. Unjustifiably, the image of the tanker pilot has been one of a cowboy, despite a very professional community getting the job done.
If you are able to get a seat, usually you can plan on five to ten years to upgrade, often flying a hundred hours a year, with an income period of three to ten months...during which time you probably won't see your family, your home, or much away from the tanker base.
USFS bases are getting quite plush now, with flushing toilets and electricity, and some downright nice furnishings in most. BLM bases in many cases still don't have electricity, running water, or flush toilets. It's not the world that a lot of folks envision as their dream environment.
As far as being qualified in the eyes of the employer...either you'll work out or you won't. Folks need to understand that no matter what their background, weather a retired airline pilot, seasoned corporate or freight pilot, veteran military pilot, or whomever, when hired into the tanker, they're a green copilot with a status just slightly lower than that of a fresh student pilot...and they'll remain there for some time while they learn. The penalties and attendant odds are much more stark than almost any other flying job, or nonflying job for that matter, as borne out by the statistics...it's not merely an employer who likes you...you get no slack, no breaks, and no quick trip to the top or upgrade...you learn slowly, and there's little that will give you a leg up or a head start.
My goal from the time I was a student pilot was to fight fire in airplanes. After being a structural and wildland firefighter on the ground, an EMT, flying air attack and fire patrol, and having an ag background plus other experience, I had nearly ten years of pounding doors, mailing resumes, calling, visiting, and hounding tanker companies before I got a foot in. During that time, I did all kinds of other flying, from cargo to charter to skydivers to airline to government to backcountry, to banner towing, flying skydivers, gliders, instructing, cargo and everything in between...whatever I could find, including turning wrenches on airplanes and a lot of extra jobs doing many non-flying things...nearly two decades total, before having a shot. Others luck out and find a place quicker...but then it's still really luck of the draw.
Technical qualifications don't mean much...the ability to get the job done in field conditions in a hundred eighty degree cockpit with your eyes full of sweat on the takeoff, at gross from a small short high altitude field surrounded by obstacles, launching into low visibility in mountainous terrain in strong winds and turbulence, day after day without any clear end in sight, and then come back at the end of the day to scrub and clean and oil and prepare for tomorrow (which comes early)...mean a whole lot more.
What makes you qualified in the eyes of an employer? Beats me.
avbug said:
Airline pilots make good tanker pilots. Several companies have had good success with them. You can find prima donnas in virtually every facet of aviation. Yes, former ag pilots are good tanker pilots.But for some their IFR skills are poor to non-existent and many have VFR only type ratings so when you have to fly that P-2V, P-3,DC-7 ,etc., several hundred miles away in IFR conditions it'll be very helpful to have an airline or military pilot on board. They're a known quantity.
A tanker pilot without any good IFR skills wouldn't make it past the first sim session at any airline. That's why airlines shy away from them.
Lack of flying ability has nothing to do with it, weather it be VFR or IFR skills.
It's purely a perception issue, with respect to tanker pilots going elsewhere. For those who have elected to move to other areas (such as airline), I don't personally know any that weren't hired if that was their goal. But that isn't really the point, nor the question that was asked.
The poster asked what background might best prepare someone to find employment in the tanker industry...the only one that comes close is ag work, and that's far from any gaurantee. At the opposite end of the spectrum, the worst backgrounds to come from for one who seeks employment in tankers is airline and military. It's not nearly so much a skill issue as a willingness to work issue.
It's purely a perception issue, with respect to tanker pilots going elsewhere. For those who have elected to move to other areas (such as airline), I don't personally know any that weren't hired if that was their goal. But that isn't really the point, nor the question that was asked.
The poster asked what background might best prepare someone to find employment in the tanker industry...the only one that comes close is ag work, and that's far from any gaurantee. At the opposite end of the spectrum, the worst backgrounds to come from for one who seeks employment in tankers is airline and military. It's not nearly so much a skill issue as a willingness to work issue.
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NookyBooky
Beach Bum Extraordanaire
Through the grapevine, I've heard of warbird jocks being offered jobs flying tankers. This was pre-Kern of course, but from a layman's perspective with absolutley no tanker experience it seems like it makes perfect sense. Exceptional warbird pilots that do their own maintenence would seem to be perfect canidates because they already know the old radial beasts in and out-at least the two that I refer to do. But that doesn't help me much considering I'm about 499 grand short of buying a Mitchell. So, I'm going to have to find my way in the old fashioned way........by earning it.
