Ailerons

[UnAnswerd]

In the history of fixed-wing aviation, has there ever been any other means of banking the aircraft, other than ailerons? Any odd-ball setups out there, that do not use ailerons???

 

[bluesky421]

Yeah, MU-2s and Beechjets use "spoilerons". They are basically small spoilers that extend and retract on the top of the wing.

 

[Yellow Snow]

1903 Wright flyer used a system that warped the entire wing. I am not sure but I think the flying wings use a system that is mostly spoilers and no or tiny ailerons. Only ones I know of.

 

[Lead Sled]

Yeah, MU-2s and Beechjets use "spoilerons". They are basically small spoilers that extend and retract on the top of the wing.

The MU-2 and Beechjet do not have spoilerons - Lear 35s and Boeing 727s have spoilerons. They use straight, old-fashioned, honest to goodness spoilers and nothing but spoilers for roll control. They use small trim ailerons for roll trim.

'Sled

 

[TIGV]

Well Said !!

 

[bluesky421]

The MU-2 and Beechjet do not have spoilerons - Lear 35s and Boeing 727s have spoilerons. They use straight, old-fashioned, honest to goodness spoilers and nothing but spoilers for roll control. They use small trim ailerons for roll trim.

'Sled

Ah. Well then... I stand corrected.

 

[Wasted]

Don't forget tailerons.

 

[Tarzan]

There is also some experimentation on wing warping on the F18. Easy to bank the airplane at +1 Mach.

 

[The Gimp]

The A-5 Vigilante used 2 sets of spoilers, one facing forward on the bottom of the wing, and another facing the normal direction on top of the wing.

 

[Lead Sled]

Ah. Well then... I stand corrected.

Don't feel too bad, a lot of people are under that misconception. There are also a few light planes that use spoilerons - the Wren modified Cessna 182 has what are essentially spoilers on the top of the wing that work in conjunction with the stock ailerons. I believe that Helio Courier uses a similiar system as well.

Back to the original question...

In response to the United DC-10 accident in Sioux City, NASA has be experimenting with a computer program that allows for full aircraft control using differential power inputs.

'Sled

 

[jergar999]

Some newer military designs are experimenting with both wing warping and thrust vectoring.

 

[Fury220]

The rudder will do it under high AOA. In the T-38, it can actually roll the jet BETTER than the ailerons if you're deep into the red chevron.

 

[av8raaron]

B-52 uses spoilers only. The roll trim just resets the neutral point of the spoilers.

 

[Donsa320]

The MU-2 and Beechjet do not have spoilerons - Lear 35s and Boeing 727s have spoilerons. They use straight, old-fashioned, honest to goodness spoilers and nothing but spoilers for roll control. They use small trim ailerons for roll trim.

'Sled

Gee, all that time in a B-727 and I never knew I had "spoilerons". Please educate me some more. <bg>

~DC

 

[Lead Sled]

Gee, all that time in a B-727 and I never knew I had "spoilerons". Please educate me some more. <bg>

It's been 20 years since I was last in a 727, so I don't remember the exact flap setting when the spoilers started working in conjunction with the ailerons. Regardless, when you've got spoilers and ailerons working together - you've got spoilerons.

I knew you knew that.

The Lear 35 also has a similiar system, it's been 10 years since I've flown one of those, but I believe that you get differential spoiler operation to augment ailerons with flap settings greater than 20 degrees.

'Sled

 

[NYCPilot]

A little off the subject but nice to know...aileron means "small wing" in French.

 

[Donsa320]

It's been 20 years since I was last in a 727, so I don't remember the exact flap setting when the spoilers started working in conjunction with the ailerons. Regardless, when you've got spoilers and ailerons working together - you've got spoilerons.

I knew you knew that.

The Lear 35 also has a similiar system, it's been 10 years since I've flown one of those, but I believe that you get differential spoiler operation to augment ailerons with flap settings greater than 20 degrees.

'Sled

It must have been a long 20 years, good buddy, the spoilers always work with ailerons in a 727. As they also do on DC-9's and A320's, etc. I think you are confusing that with the progressive lock-out of the OUTBOARD Ailerons as you get less than flaps 15. However the INBOARD Ailerons continue to function at all flap settings, as do the roll spoilers. Differential spoiler for roll control augmentation is rather common and I'd never heard that referred to as "spoilerons". They are totally separate surfaces.

 

[Lead Sled]

It must have been a long 20 years, good buddy, the spoilers always work with ailerons in a 727. As they also do on DC-9's and A320's, etc. I think you are confusing that with the progressive lock-out of the OUTBOARD Ailerons as you get less than flaps 15. However the INBOARD Ailerons continue to function at all flap settings, as do the roll spoilers. Differential spoiler for roll control augmentation is rather common and I'd never heard that referred to as "spoilerons". They are totally separate surfaces.

You're right, it has been a long 20 years and a lot of water has passed under the bridge. As I remember, the spoilers started to augment the ailerons at 7 degrees control wheel movement. They told us that the combination of ailerons and spoilers were called spoilerons as they are in the Lear 35. Oh well, I stand corrected.

'Sled

 

[YGBSM]

A little off the subject but nice to know...aileron means "small wing" in French.

So how do you say "balance tab"?

 

[Eagleflip]

But wait, there's more! The F-15 and F-18 (and likely the F-16, though I'm not positive) also use differential stabliator to help roll the aircraft. Their utility really comes in handy during high AOA maneuvering when the ailerons are essentially washed out due to airflow disruption. The Eagle has a wonderfully complex mechanical system that takes your altitude, airspeed, pressure, temp, albedo factor, white blood cell count, and phase of Mars into account and makes the determination of how much stab to program to make the roll happen. Works like a champ.

To digress a bit, the neatest thing is that that flight control system gives the same g-force (if available) for a given amount of longitudinal stick travel no matter what airspeed one is flying. In other words, you get 6 Gz when you pull the stick about 5 inches aft if you are flying at 325 knots or 600 knots.

 

[Stryker]

The spoilers on the beech truck both extend at the same time when used as speed brakes, and still travel up and down with movement of the yoke when turning although its like driving a tractor in this configuration and just as loud

 

[PIO]

Don't forget elevons and I saw an old glider once where each wing (right and left) moved independant of the other for roll control.

 

[91100 100 set]

The Wright flyer was not the only plane to use wing warping back in those days. I understand it was the common method of lateral control for most aircraft until the mid-1910's. A few very early WW1 aircraft used wing-warping, including the Fokker Eindecker (the aircraft responsible for the "Fokker Scourge", courtesy of the interrupter gear that allowed the gun to fire through the prop arc).

 

[hindsight2020]

"differential stabilator" == elevons

 

[PIO]

"differential stabilator" == elevons

I was thinking elevons as on a delta wing.

 

[Wasted]

"differential stabilator" == elevons

The differential stabilator is actually called a taileron. They are the all moving tail surfaces on aircraft such as F-14s, F-15s, F-16s, F-18s, etc. that move together to provide pitch and differentially to provide roll control. http://homepages.enterprise.net/corkish/History/flight_control.htm

Elevons, as used in delta winged aircraft such as Mirages, are similar in that they provide both pitch and roll, but are not stabilators since they are part of the wing surface.

 

[TonyC]

... Boeing 727s have spoilerons.

I'm contemplating returning my 727 type rating, since I have never heard of such devices on the old Boeing.


Better yet, I decided to pull up the ole flight manual in Adobe and search for "spoileron". Care to guess how many times it shows up?

Finished searching for:

spoileron

Total instances found:

0

... I don't remember the exact flap setting when the spoilers started working in conjunction with the ailerons. Regardless, when you've got spoilers and ailerons working together - you've got spoilerons.

I knew you knew that.

Umm, I didn't know THAT either. Does that fall into the category of "alternate vocabulary"? As Donsa320 has already pointed out, your memory on the subject (flap setting?!?!) is a bit hazy. I think your memory of the vocabulary is also suspect. The 727 has ailerons and spoilers. Using them at the same time makes them spoilerons no more than using the lav and the autopilot at the same time makes it a ... ahh, never mind.








.

 

[bafanguy]

As Donsa320 has already pointed out, your memory on the subject (flap setting?!?!) is a bit hazy.








.

Tony,

As one old guy standing behind fellow old guy, he said it was 20 years since he has flown the 727. Come back in 20 years and we'll give you an oral on the airplane and see how you do.

Be nice, Man. You usually are.

I flew the CV880 and the 737 30+ years ago, but today couldn't give you many accurate answers to questions about them. But I might try to be helpful in a discussion if questions came up.

 

[Lead Sled]

As one old guy standing behind fellow old guy, he said it was 20 years since he has flown the 727. Come back in 20 years and we'll give you an oral on the airplane and see how you do.

Thanks bafanguy, but I'm only getting what I deserved - I was a little too "aggressive" in my position and I was wrong. Like I said, it's been since April of 1985 since I last had a front row seat in a 727 and a lot of water (and over 10,000 hours of jet time) has passed under that bridge. The 'ol memory ain't what it used to be.

'Sled

 

[Stepclimb]

Roll control in the BUFF

B-52 uses spoilers only. The roll trim just resets the neutral point of the spoilers.

I may be dating myself but...
Only the short tail BUFF's lacked ailerons. The B-52 A through F had ailerons and spoilers for roll control. They also had one less set of spoilers on each wing and miles of bleed air plumbing to run everything from generators and hydraulics in the fuselage.