Ailerons

UnAnswerd

Activity Terminated
Joined
Sep 13, 2004
Posts
607
Total Time
NA
In the history of fixed-wing aviation, has there ever been any other means of banking the aircraft, other than ailerons? Any odd-ball setups out there, that do not use ailerons???
 

bluesky421

Are we there yet?
Joined
May 14, 2005
Posts
60
Total Time
some
Yeah, MU-2s and Beechjets use "spoilerons". They are basically small spoilers that extend and retract on the top of the wing.
 

Yellow Snow

never eat the yellow snow
Joined
May 15, 2005
Posts
110
Total Time
000
1903 Wright flyer used a system that warped the entire wing. I am not sure but I think the flying wings use a system that is mostly spoilers and no or tiny ailerons. Only ones I know of.
 

Lead Sled

Sitt'n on the throne...
Joined
Apr 1, 2004
Posts
2,066
Total Time
> enuf
bluesky421 said:
Yeah, MU-2s and Beechjets use "spoilerons". They are basically small spoilers that extend and retract on the top of the wing.
The MU-2 and Beechjet do not have spoilerons - Lear 35s and Boeing 727s have spoilerons. They use straight, old-fashioned, honest to goodness spoilers and nothing but spoilers for roll control. They use small trim ailerons for roll trim.

'Sled
 

bluesky421

Are we there yet?
Joined
May 14, 2005
Posts
60
Total Time
some
Lead Sled said:
The MU-2 and Beechjet do not have spoilerons - Lear 35s and Boeing 727s have spoilerons. They use straight, old-fashioned, honest to goodness spoilers and nothing but spoilers for roll control. They use small trim ailerons for roll trim.

'Sled
Ah. Well then... I stand corrected.
 

Tarzan

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 21, 2005
Posts
2,073
Total Time
.
There is also some experimentation on wing warping on the F18. Easy to bank the airplane at +1 Mach.
 

The Gimp

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 13, 2005
Posts
104
Total Time
7000
The A-5 Vigilante used 2 sets of spoilers, one facing forward on the bottom of the wing, and another facing the normal direction on top of the wing.
 

Lead Sled

Sitt'n on the throne...
Joined
Apr 1, 2004
Posts
2,066
Total Time
> enuf
bluesky421 said:
Ah. Well then... I stand corrected.
Don't feel too bad, a lot of people are under that misconception. There are also a few light planes that use spoilerons - the Wren modified Cessna 182 has what are essentially spoilers on the top of the wing that work in conjunction with the stock ailerons. I believe that Helio Courier uses a similiar system as well.

Back to the original question...

In response to the United DC-10 accident in Sioux City, NASA has be experimenting with a computer program that allows for full aircraft control using differential power inputs.

'Sled
 

jergar999

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 24, 2002
Posts
791
Total Time
4800
Some newer military designs are experimenting with both wing warping and thrust vectoring.
 

Fury220

Resident T-38A/C FAIP
Joined
Dec 20, 2002
Posts
435
Total Time
!= 0
The rudder will do it under high AOA. In the T-38, it can actually roll the jet BETTER than the ailerons if you're deep into the red chevron.
 

av8raaron

Active member
Joined
Jan 5, 2002
Posts
40
Total Time
Noon
B-52 uses spoilers only. The roll trim just resets the neutral point of the spoilers.
 

Donsa320

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 10, 2004
Posts
521
Total Time
32,000
Lead Sled said:
The MU-2 and Beechjet do not have spoilerons - Lear 35s and Boeing 727s have spoilerons. They use straight, old-fashioned, honest to goodness spoilers and nothing but spoilers for roll control. They use small trim ailerons for roll trim.

'Sled
Gee, all that time in a B-727 and I never knew I had "spoilerons". Please educate me some more. <bg>

~DC
 

Lead Sled

Sitt'n on the throne...
Joined
Apr 1, 2004
Posts
2,066
Total Time
> enuf
Donsa320 said:
Gee, all that time in a B-727 and I never knew I had "spoilerons". Please educate me some more. <bg>
It's been 20 years since I was last in a 727, so I don't remember the exact flap setting when the spoilers started working in conjunction with the ailerons. Regardless, when you've got spoilers and ailerons working together - you've got spoilerons.

I knew you knew that. ;)

The Lear 35 also has a similiar system, it's been 10 years since I've flown one of those, but I believe that you get differential spoiler operation to augment ailerons with flap settings greater than 20 degrees.

'Sled
 
Last edited:

NYCPilot

Incorporated.
Joined
Nov 29, 2001
Posts
645
Total Time
.00001
A little off the subject but nice to know...aileron means "small wing" in French.
 

Donsa320

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 10, 2004
Posts
521
Total Time
32,000
Lead Sled said:
It's been 20 years since I was last in a 727, so I don't remember the exact flap setting when the spoilers started working in conjunction with the ailerons. Regardless, when you've got spoilers and ailerons working together - you've got spoilerons.

I knew you knew that. ;)

The Lear 35 also has a similiar system, it's been 10 years since I've flown one of those, but I believe that you get differential spoiler operation to augment ailerons with flap settings greater than 20 degrees.

'Sled
It must have been a long 20 years, good buddy, the spoilers always work with ailerons in a 727. As they also do on DC-9's and A320's, etc. I think you are confusing that with the progressive lock-out of the OUTBOARD Ailerons as you get less than flaps 15. However the INBOARD Ailerons continue to function at all flap settings, as do the roll spoilers. Differential spoiler for roll control augmentation is rather common and I'd never heard that referred to as "spoilerons". They are totally separate surfaces.
 

Lead Sled

Sitt'n on the throne...
Joined
Apr 1, 2004
Posts
2,066
Total Time
> enuf
Donsa320 said:
It must have been a long 20 years, good buddy, the spoilers always work with ailerons in a 727. As they also do on DC-9's and A320's, etc. I think you are confusing that with the progressive lock-out of the OUTBOARD Ailerons as you get less than flaps 15. However the INBOARD Ailerons continue to function at all flap settings, as do the roll spoilers. Differential spoiler for roll control augmentation is rather common and I'd never heard that referred to as "spoilerons". They are totally separate surfaces.
You're right, it has been a long 20 years and a lot of water has passed under the bridge. As I remember, the spoilers started to augment the ailerons at 7 degrees control wheel movement. They told us that the combination of ailerons and spoilers were called spoilerons as they are in the Lear 35. Oh well, I stand corrected.

'Sled
 

YGBSM

Old flaccid member
Joined
Apr 4, 2005
Posts
123
Total Time
>0
NYCPilot said:
A little off the subject but nice to know...aileron means "small wing" in French.
So how do you say "balance tab"?
 

Eagleflip

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 25, 2001
Posts
794
Total Time
5000+
But wait, there's more! The F-15 and F-18 (and likely the F-16, though I'm not positive) also use differential stabliator to help roll the aircraft. Their utility really comes in handy during high AOA maneuvering when the ailerons are essentially washed out due to airflow disruption. The Eagle has a wonderfully complex mechanical system that takes your altitude, airspeed, pressure, temp, albedo factor, white blood cell count, and phase of Mars into account and makes the determination of how much stab to program to make the roll happen. Works like a champ.

To digress a bit, the neatest thing is that that flight control system gives the same g-force (if available) for a given amount of longitudinal stick travel no matter what airspeed one is flying. In other words, you get 6 Gz when you pull the stick about 5 inches aft if you are flying at 325 knots or 600 knots.
 
Top