Age to 65

[Mach92]

So reading over on the majors section they "boys" seem to be very mad at 65 passing. Here at NetJets we have a ton of over 60 guys. Hell I think we have several over 70. Interesting reading for sure. I did get a call from a friend at SWA saying his upgrade will now be close to 12-14 years.

 

[gutshotdraw]

The legislation should have created a mandatory retirement age of 65 for ALL compensated flying: Part 91, 91K, 135 and 121.

How is it that the day you turn 60 (or 65) you can no longer safely fly a Southwest 737 but you can go down to Van Nuys or Vegas or wherever and jump onto a BBJ and go blasting around the world until you can't hold a medical or drop dead?

Let's either have one, across-the-board, consistent retirement age, or none at all.

 

[FLYLOW22]

The legislation should have created a mandatory retirement age of 65 for ALL compensated flying: Part 91, 91K, 135 and 121.

How is it that the day you turn 60 (or 65) you can no longer safely fly a Southwest 737 but you can go down to Van Nuys or Vegas or wherever and jump onto a BBJ and go blasting around the world until you can't hold a medical or drop dead?

Let's either have one, across-the-board, consistent retirement age, or none at all.

Politics. Please don't wish the same regulated bull$hit on our sector of the industry as 121 has.

121 remains the most regulated, unregulated industry in the world.

 

[gutshotdraw]

Politics. Please don't wish the same regulated bull$hit on our sector of the industry as 121 has.

Too late.

 

[208starcheck]

At Netjets I've flown with a ton of 65+ guys. I'm starting to get a little scared. Every single one of the guys that were 67+ should not be flying. They get confused so easily and can't adapt to the changes fast enough. I'll agree the 60-65 range is flyable. I'm seeing a slight drop in ablity but still very capable. 67+ they are falling apart.

My question is... Who makes the call that a pilot is no longer safe? How bad does someone get before they are finally kicked out? How long is someone allowed to fly unsafe until the nonexistent process finally boots them?

I really do love to hear the life stories. Most of these guys have lived an interesting life. They just don't know when to start a new chapter.

We all get old. We all are terrible at judging when to stop.

 

[realityman]

208,

The problem is, it happens on both ends of the age scale. I haven't flown with anyone over 65 at NJA yet, but I understand where you're coming from.

Question is, would it be any better with a 300 hour wonder in the right seat of that RJ you ride on to work? After talking with many many ex-regional pilots here at NJA, I'm just as scared riding on the regionals as I am being stuck with a geezer who can't keep up.

True, the young guy should improve, whereas the older gent may continue to get worse, but how do you fix it? Ask for more govn't regs on both ends of the experience timeline? Not sure I want more govn't interference.

 

[fischman]

deleted.

 

[fischman]

I'll take flying with a 67 year old retired Delta Captain over a 300 hour riddle wonder kid any day of the week. When the $hit hits the fan, I want someone calm and collected over someone who is going to start throwing switches sitting next to me.

I only have 4000 hours. I'll take experience any day.

 

[Duke of Ale]

Reality Man:
Yes you have flown with someone over 65!!!!! Hehe!

Oh, and 208S....... I will challenge you to flying and RON'ing.

 

[realityman]

Duke, you don't count!!! You're more of a partying dude than I am, hands down!!!

And if that's the case, I think you're the only one I've flown with in that demographic. So my opinion of pilots over 67 has to be: In my experience, they do a great job. No worries here.

Still scared of the regionals though.

 

[208starcheck]

Reality Man:
Yes you have flown with someone over 65!!!!! Hehe!

Oh, and 208S....... I will challenge you to flying and RON'ing.

I didn't say I was super pilot. I also don't need to measure dicks to make my point. My concern is when and how do you start pulling these guys out if they don't excuse themselves?

Many of the guys I flew with want to fly into their 70s. Their was a guy in the Falcon that was pulled out of the left seat cause he couldn't cut it anymore. How long did it take to pull him out? How many month/years was he unsafe before the company finally pulled him out of the left seat? One good thing about flying with someone that old is they get tired fast. Fatigue is used more often.

 

[Duke of Ale]

208S..........

What got me was your statement : "Every single one of the guys that were 67+ should not be flying."
I am one of those and thus my challenge.

 

[pilotyip]

So what the deal with with over guys still on the senority list going back in the 121 cockpit. Like our over 60 DA-20 drivers can they go back to the DA-20?

 

[208starcheck]

208S..........

What got me was your statement : "Every single one of the guys that were 67+ should not be flying."
I am one of those and thus my challenge.

Read it again. I was talking about the guys I FLEW WITH.

"Every single one of the guys that were 67+ should not be flying."


I have yet to fly with someone over the age of 67 that is demonstrating full capabilities. I have no doubt there are people out there that can do it at that age. I'm not targeting you. I have not flown with you.
So I'll ask again
"My concern is when and how do you start pulling these guys out if they don't excuse themselves?"

 

[FLYLOW22]

I'll take flying with a 67 year old retired Delta Captain over a 300 hour riddle wonder kid any day of the week. When the $hit hits the fan, I want someone calm and collected over someone who is going to start throwing switches sitting next to me.

I only have 4000 hours. I'll take experience any day.

The retired guy has better stories too.

 

[n7715x]

I'm not aware that NJA has a procedure set in stone for dealing with aging pilots who may be deteriorating. Having said that, I do know several of the older guys here recently have had to do some sort of "cognitive evaluation" by a professional to assess their capability to continue flying.

 

[fischman]

The retired guy has better storties too.

What's a "stortie?"

 

[WabiSabi]

The legislation should have created a mandatory retirement age of 65 for ALL compensated flying: Part 91, 91K, 135 and 121.

How is it that the day you turn 60 (or 65) you can no longer safely fly a Southwest 737 but you can go down to Van Nuys or Vegas or wherever and jump onto a BBJ and go blasting around the world until you can't hold a medical or drop dead?

Let's either have one, across-the-board, consistent retirement age, or none at all.

I hear ya. It's not unlike the double standard BS in supplemental O2 requirements between 135 and 121 just because of the Payne Stewart crash. What? 121 pilots have a longer useful consciousness than 135 pilots? Give me a break!

 

[Rouge Warrior]

At least with the older guy you can get the AARP discount at dinner .

2nd the sea stories, I don't ever wanna hear a ohh man it was tough at riddle crap. Puhhhhllleeasseee

 

[mooney flier]

I'll take flying with a 67 year old retired Delta Captain over a 300 hour riddle wonder kid any day of the week. When the $hit hits the fan, I want someone calm and collected over someone who is going to start throwing switches sitting next to me.

I only have 4000 hours. I'll take experience any day.

Thank you for the compliment.

DSA

 

[Some guy]

I'm not aware that NJA has a procedure set in stone for dealing with aging pilots who may be deteriorating. Having said that, I do know several of the older guys here recently have had to do some sort of "cognitive evaluation" by a professional to assess their capability to continue flying.

Whether or not a procedure is set in stone, do you guys have a way to report someone who may need an evaluation done? By saying this, I don't mean trying to bust the guy's (or gal's) chops, but with the level of liability involved, there should be a way to say something. What if you guys could report it to the union for them to track? If the union had 10 reports from 10 different members on the same person, they could go to the company and request the evaluation (or whatever it is that needs to be done). Again it shouldn't be about getting someone in trouble, it's about safety for everyone including the "geezer". After all, if anyone reading this post turns 70, can't see that your mental ability is deteriorating / slowing down, and can't handle the job, wouldn't you want someone to pull you out of the seat in your best interest?

SG

 

[Spooky 2]

I hear ya. It's not unlike the double standard BS in supplemental O2 requirements between 135 and 121 just because of the Payne Stewart crash. What? 121 pilots have a longer useful consciousness than 135 pilots? Give me a break!

Care to expand on this requirement as I think I know where your going.

 

[realityman]

Whether or not a procedure is set in stone, do you guys have a way to report someone who may need an evaluation done? By saying this, I don't mean trying to bust the guy's (or gal's) chops, but with the level of liability involved, there should be a way to say something. What if you guys could report it to the union for them to track? If the union had 10 reports from 10 different members on the same person, they could go to the company and request the evaluation (or whatever it is that needs to be done). Again it shouldn't be about getting someone in trouble, it's about safety for everyone including the "geezer". After all, if anyone reading this post turns 70, can't see that your mental ability is deteriorating / slowing down, and can't handle the job, wouldn't you want someone to pull you out of the seat in your best interest?

SG

Yes. It's called the Pro Standards Committee. They are there to do exactly what you suggested. They track reports on pilots, and when they have enough (don't know how many that is) they will approach the pilot tactfully (I hope) about whatever the problem is, and go to the company too if necessary.

 

[Some guy]

Yes. It's called the Pro Standards Committee. They are there to do exactly what you suggested. They track reports on pilots, and when they have enough (don't know how many that is) they will approach the pilot tactfully (I hope) about whatever the problem is, and go to the company too if necessary.

I hope it is used by those who have posted they fly with potentially unsafe, older pilots who don't quite have the touch anymore.

SG

 

[Boris Badenov]

The Riddle Ace will panic and start touching stuff. The elderly gent will smile placidly, thank you for pointing out his error, finish his tapioca pudding, put his dentures back in, fly the ILS like he's on rails, and tell you about a time something similar happened except he was being shot at and in an inverted spin.

I say this as a guy in exactly the wrong age demographic to profit from increasing the mandatory retirement age...I'll more than likely languish in cargo for another five years thanks to age 65. But age and experience will always win out over youth and skill. Gimme a graybeard any day of the week. Any mandatory retirement age was always ludicrous and political. The fact that some of us will suffer because of the change in rules is neither here nor there. It's the right thing to do. And if you don't think a PC is sufficient test of one's abilities, maybe you haven't done one lately?

 

[FraxJockey]

Riight

The Riddle Ace will panic and start touching stuff. The elderly gent will smile placidly, thank you for pointing out his error, finish his tapioca pudding, put his dentures back in, fly the ILS like he's on rails, and tell you about a time something similar happened except he was being shot at and in an inverted spin.

What bizzaro universe do you come from? I've seen both...Elmer Fudd and Chuck Yeager. I don't know how many retired pilots have been passed up in the interview process that crashed on the v1 cut.... even when they know its coming.

We do have something in place to deal with this....it's called a check ride. When they can't pass it, they are out.

 

[Spooky 2]

What bizzaro universe do you come from? I've seen both...Elmer Fudd and Chuck Yeager. I don't know how many retired pilots have been passed up in the interview process that crashed on the v1 cut.... even when they know its coming.

We do have something in place to deal with this....it's called a check ride. When they can't pass it, they are out.

I have probably seen more V1 cuts in a sim than your likely to see in the rest of your career. Believe me there is no room for either group to point. Age or youth don't seem to have much to do with this event.

 

[FraxJockey]

My point to the previous poster is that age has nothing to do with performance. Saying that a young guy is going to panic has as much merit as saying the older guy will sail right through any problems. You are right, age has nothing to do with it. However, no amount of experince will make up for lack of skills...be it from lack of flight time or deterioration of skills over time.

 

[DirtyBeech]

What's a "stortie?"

It's a combination story and sortie. Generally this high adventure occurs when a FOD (F'n Old Dude as opposed to FNG) is recalling an entertaining war story and fails to recall his last ATC clearance/altitude assigned/heading assigned/aircraft configuration requested/memory item/or current wife's first name at an inopportune moment.

Seriously though, the checkrides should weed out those who can't cut it anymore. I've flown with a few FOD's who are quite the best pilots I've ever known while being great teachers. Then again, I've had more than my fair share of storties too.

 

[Spooky 2]

My point to the previous poster is that age has nothing to do with performance. Saying that a young guy is going to panic has as much merit as saying the older guy will sail right through any problems. You are right, age has nothing to do with it. However, no amount of experince will make up for lack of skills...be it from lack of flight time or deterioration of skills over time.

Ah yes, we finally agree!