• NC Software is having a Black Friday Sale Event thru December 4th on Logbook Pro, APDL - Airline Pilot Logbook, Cirrus Elite Binders, and more. Use coupon code BF2020 at checkout to redeem 15% off your purchase. Click here to shop now.
  • NC Software is proud to announce the release of APDL - Airline Pilot Logbook version 10.0. Click here to view APDL on the Apple App store and install now.

Age 65 ICAO Rule – You Might Be Surprised

AA767AV8TOR

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 6, 2006
Posts
258
Total Time
12,000
There’s little debate on how the Age 65 ruling has devastated the careers of the lower ¾ of the pilots across the industry as our industry continues to shrink and consolidate. Due to inability or lack of foresight of not even administering a simple phase-in of the new Age 65 retirement age (which would have made for a more sensible change), the ruling has stopped any progression for the next three and half years industry wide.

As the industry continues to shrink and consolidate during the current difficult economic times, the junior pilot has paid a high price for our senior pilots to remain in the highest paying seats an extra five years. This has resulted in additional furloughs, backwards career movement, loss of career earnings, and massive stagnation across our industry. It has force many to leave the career for good due to the lack of upward opportunities and low rates of pay. Ask yourself; has Age 65 really increase the safety factor across our industry or was this just a money grab by our most senior pilots?

Now we find that not only did we lose our seats to these pilots and forced to endure lower rates of pay for much longer, but are forced to have to baby-sit them up in the cockpit under 10,000. If Age 65 is so safe (as we know it isn’t), why the following rule?

This today from AA management:

RE: AGE 60 COCKPIT SEAT RESTRICTIONS.
PILOTS OVER AGE 60 ARE REMINDED TO REVIEW ICAO RESTRICTIONS GOVERNING SEAT OCCUPANCY WHEN FLYING IN FOREIGN COUNTRIES.

SPECIFIC GUIDANCE IS LOCATED IN FM PART I, SECTION 17, PG 1, PARA 2.2. IN FOREIGN COUNTRIES, DURING PHASES OF FLIGHT AT LESS THAN 10,000 FEET AGL, THERE MUST BE ONE PILOT UNDER AGE 60 IN EITHER THE LEFT OR RIGHT PILOT SEAT. DURING FLYING BETWEEN THE US AND ANOTHER COUNTRY, A PILOT MUST BE ASSIGNED TO THE FLIGHT DECK CREW WHO HAS NOT YET ATTAINED 60 YEARS OF AGE.

THANKS FOR YOUR ASSISTANCE.

MANAGER FLIGHT OPERATIONS QUALITY CONTROL

The senior pilots pulled a major coup with Age 65. It serves as major reminder of why the junior pilots must get involved. Our careers and safety depend on it.

AA767AV8TOR
 

WolfManPack

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 24, 2004
Posts
86
Total Time
5000+
Agreed

Age 60 rule change was carefully crafted by the powers that be and it was a windfall for only a small segment of active airline pilots.

I don't see how the folks who advocated this rule sleep at night, let alone the pilots that actively fly past age 60, most of whom are wealthy, while thousands of pilots on are on the street in dire circumstances.
 

donkeykong

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 14, 2002
Posts
72
Total Time
8000
Age 60 rule change was carefully crafted by the powers that be and it was a windfall for only a small segment of active airline pilots.

I don't see how the folks who advocated this rule sleep at night, let alone the pilots that actively fly past age 60, most of whom are wealthy, while thousands of pilots on are on the street in dire circumstances.


I'm sure they are sleeping just fine. It's really no surprise that this rule got stuffed down the pilots' throat. The current crop of politicians that passed it are mostly baby boomers. This is the generation that runs the country. Those pols can always provide a healthy dose of spin when their actions are questioned, just like the 60+ ers can. It's not about the profession, it's about ME.
 

Chest Rockwell

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 12, 2004
Posts
432
Total Time
>250
Ask yourself; has Age 65 really increase the safety factor across our industry or was this just a money grab by our most senior pilots?

It is difficult/impossible to use the accident that did not happen.

If Age 65 is so safe (as we know it isn’t), why the following rule?

I am not sure who "we" is. What are your facts for this assertion?

AA767AV8TOR

If bringing back age 60 is a good idea, collect some data and start a grass roots effort to get it changed.
 

B52GUNNER

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 4, 2002
Posts
164
Total Time
4500
5 more years of earning the highest wages so the lowest earners can get furloughed.
 

rjpilot7667

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 8, 2003
Posts
168
Total Time
6pm
Hey guy's,

I am dealing with the same thing in corporate aviation. I currently fly with one gentleman who is 67 years old, can't operate the FMS and falls asleep every 20 minutes not to mention offends everyone he talks to. We have no restrictions in part 91. Im with you... fight on!
 

Flybywire44

Flies With The Hat On
Joined
Mar 31, 2006
Posts
991
Total Time
7k
Most don't have the health to make it to age 65 anyway... The truth is that most pilots who work past age 60 will meet an early grave. :(
 

PeanuckleCRJ

Hurrrrrrrr
Joined
Jul 21, 2004
Posts
1,684
Total Time
mucho
Hey guy's,

I am dealing with the same thing in corporate aviation. I currently fly with one gentleman who is 67 years old, can't operate the FMS and falls asleep every 20 minutes not to mention offends everyone he talks to. We have no restrictions in part 91. Im with you... fight on!


That's when it's time to report them. Are you guys union?
 

PropPiedmont

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 13, 2005
Posts
556
I have flown with about 12 over 60 guys now. Of that twelve, ten of them required way too much of my time and attention. The only thing I didn't do was to offer to change diapers between legs.

On another note, I have flow with a ton of guys 55-60. I would say 60% of them require extra vigilance on my part. Bash away at me now, but I think something starts to happen to the airline pilots brain in his/her late 50's.
 

ThisistheDream

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 18, 2004
Posts
293
Total Time
99
If the the airline and the FAA are allowing pilots fly to 65 and feel its safe to due so, why is there any restriction on pairing them with anyone?? There is no restriction on a pilot who is 59 and 22 paired together?? What if the 45 yr old pilot paired with the 63 yr old pilot gets sick during flight?? Does the age 63 pilot have to declare an emergency and land since they feel its not safe having them at the controls below 10,000?? By having this stipulation saying an over 60 pilot paired with an under 60 pilots is saying they feel there is some risk involved with pilots ages over 60 and they want to make sure there is at least one young..
 
Last edited:

AA767AV8TOR

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 6, 2006
Posts
258
Total Time
12,000
The above rule demonstrates that even the powers at ICAO believe that flying over the age of 60 is inherently dangerous hence the “babysitting rule.” We already had one death at the controls above the age of 60 and one nearing age 60 over the last couple of years. What more proof do you need?

We are all flying in a complex, demanding, stressful and subjected to long periods of intense UV radiation and now the government suddenly thinks this is a good idea to let a bunch of senior pilots fly to 65 just so they can get a money grab?

Whether we like it or not, we are now conducting an intense social experiment just so some senior pilots can get a pass at spending five additional years in the highest paying seats. The sorry suckers in this experiment are the lowly FO’s and the unexpecting PAXS.

Not only must the safety issue be reconsidered, but also the inequity of the rule between the winners and losers is appalling and must be address. The rule has been a total scam.

AA767AV8TOR
 

Chest Rockwell

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 12, 2004
Posts
432
Total Time
>250
Believe it or not, there were FOs looking at forced retirement at age 60. If everyone stays until 65, they will likely retire at age 65 as FOs.

Inherently dangerous? I think that it simply addresses the concern some something undetected causing an incapacitation increases with age. 60 may not be the appropriate number.

PropPiedmont, If 10 out of twelve were unsafe, did you do anything about it? If they can do the job, let them stay. If not, get rid of them. Flying airplanes is not an entitlement.
 

Grandpa +65

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 1, 2006
Posts
315
Total Time
a lot
Hey guy's,

I am dealing with the same thing in corporate aviation. I currently fly with one gentleman who is 67 years old, can't operate the FMS and falls asleep every 20 minutes not to mention offends everyone he talks to. We have no restrictions in part 91. Im with you... fight on!

Hey rjpilot7667, My last F/O is 41 and fall asleep every leg in a 4 day-trip schedule.
So what`s your point?
 

Dumb Pilot

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 8, 2006
Posts
1,570
Total Time
14,000
Stop complaining, I fly with over 60 guys all the time and they do just fine. This is ONLY an issue because it came on a bad economic time, if airlines would have been hiring 80 pilots a month like pre 9/11, none of you would be saying a peep about it
 

Mamma

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 29, 2005
Posts
2,802
Total Time
+1
Stop complaining, I fly with over 60 guys all the time and they do just fine. This is ONLY an issue because it came on a bad economic time, if airlines would have been hiring 80 pilots a month like pre 9/11, none of you would be saying a peep about it

Great point but I am still confused. You say this is economic while others say safety. Can you address why there has to be a pilot who is less than 60 below 10,000ft? Also, can you list me more than 2 ICAO countries that allow allow their pilots to fly over 60? I understand ICAO allows flying over age 60 but it is up to the discretion of each country/operator whether they do so. Here, they made age 60 an issue of discrimination. If it was purely discrimination, then why did American put out that policy on having the pilot who is over 60 have a pilot less than 60 under 10,000ft?
 

pilotyip

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 26, 2001
Posts
13,629
Total Time
14000
They should have raised it to 70 while they were at it. Then we would not have to go through this again in 2012. BTW Who would you rather have in the right seat of Q400 going in BUF on an icy night, a 66 year old 13,000 ATP or a 20’s something low time former CFI?
 

Mamma

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 29, 2005
Posts
2,802
Total Time
+1
They should have raised it to 70 while they were at it. Then we would not have to go through this again in 2012. BTW Who would you rather have in the right seat of Q400 going in BUF on an icy night, a 66 year old 13,000 ATP or a 20’s something low time former CFI?

I would rather have neither of them up there. Hopefully this new law going through congress will take care of one of them. Read this article regarding age 60.

http://www.age60rule.com/docs/FAA Not Adopt ICAO Standard.pdf
 
Top