Age 60-rule DENIED!!

[FlyDeltasJets]

Mobs,

If age should not be a factor, have you written your senators asking them to rescind the age 23 minimum for ATP's?

I don't mean to be flippant, but the fact is, gender or race cannot be argued to have any bearing on safety. I could not make the same claim about age.

That being said, I do wish you luck in any future endeavors.

 

[skykid]

F/O, thanks for posting the specific votes.

 

[mobs]

FlyDeltaJets, To be honest no I have not contacted anyone about the age 23 ATP,maybe I should have as we have people now and in the past below that age that are flying some large aircraft in our armed forces. I also know some that are over the hill at 35,40,50 and 80. I know that my airline flying is over,but I will still both fly and enjoy what I have always done as long as I can. Yes I have contacted anyone that would hear me for many years to try and extend the age for retirement.I have a dear friend and mentor at 78 is still flying an AT6 every week and also at airshows,if I keep on learning hope to catch up with him. Mobs

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

Mobs,

Best of luck to you.

All things considered, it sounds like you had a wonderful career. I can only hope I make it to retirement with my health and my airline intact.

Despite what happened to your pension, I still consider you one of the lucky few.

Not too many guys last long enough to get the washdown. I hope you enjoy it, and any other future endeavors.

 

[SWA/FO]

Wonder how much money SWAPA dumped into this?

 

[mobs]

Thanks for the well wishing,and yes I have had a great time. Not one trip I did not enjoy in some way or another,some more than others,but the worst was still a good trip. Starting with round engines and ending up the last four years on the A330 is a good cruise. I feel sure it is just about to start again,I don't want to run out of hotel soap!! Mobs

 

[b757driver]

FlyDeltasJets

I don't agree with yr rationale on age having a bearing on safety for everyone. This country has has so many freedoms that many others don't enjoy & I would have thought that age discrimination was one of them! If I guy (or gal) can perform the required duties to the set standard, more power to them. It has got nothing to do with age! Have you read the history of this rule? When it came into being and why?
On the subjects of retirement/careers etc., not every pilot has the luxury of staying with one or even two companies for the lifetime of their careers. Some of us HAVE to work because we have no choice, through no fault of our own.
As to the age 23 for ATPs. There is a slight but very relevant difference here. That is if you are under 23, all you have to do is wait until your 23rd birthday and then carry on. Once you reach 60, you are done, you can't turn the clock back. So your argument there is like comparing apples with oranges.
Quite simply, if the person passes the First Class Medical plus the recurrent PCs, let him/her be the one to decide to quit or not. Why let a 80-year-old lawmaker who votes in his own retirement package with no real knowledge of the airline business dictate when and for how much you should retire. Besides, the young ones have time on their hands, the others don't.
And as mobs correctly points out, most countries around the world have ALREADY gone 65 or somewhere between 60-65. I though this country was supposed to be a leader! The only EU country (I might be wrong, but in any case it's ironic when you consider who it is) who has stuck out for the age-60 rule is......la Republique de France.......sacre bleu, mon dieu!!!!

Not trying to flame you here (just the topic of conversation) but I sincerely hope you are able to keep a good flying job for the rest of your career with no adversities and build a retirement worth having. Keep in mind, not everyone is in the same boat as those that have the Midas touch.

 

[General Lee]

B757,

Age has really no part in this---it really has to do with pilots at airlines with crappy retirement or no retirement want to change the rules and affect everyone. Instead of changing the game for everyone, how about fixing your contract? You knew the rules. What else do you want to change now? Would you like it to be legal to marry your sister? I am not trying to be insensitive, but come on....

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

FlyDeltasJets

Quite simply, if the person passes the First Class Medical plus the recurrent PCs, let him/her be the one to decide to quit or not. Why let a 80-year-old lawmaker who votes in his own retirement package with no real knowledge of the airline business dictate when and for how much you should retire.


Actually, it is the FAA who dictates when I retire. It is my pilot group and our negotiators who decided how much I get. It is the 80 year old lawmaker who is only now sticking his nose where it doesn't belong. Thankfully, cooler heads prevailed.



And as mobs correctly points out, most countries around the world have ALREADY gone 65 or somewhere between 60-65. I though this country was supposed to be a leader!


We still have the safest aviation system in the world. I believe we are the leader. Repealing a law that has benefitted safety because others have done so first would hardly fit any definition of "leading."



Not trying to flame you here (just the topic of conversation) but I sincerely hope you are able to keep a good flying job for the rest of your career with no adversities and build a retirement worth having. Keep in mind, not everyone is in the same boat as those that have the Midas touch.

Too late!



(I'm furloughed)

 

[AJWick]

b757driver said

As to the age 23 for ATPs. There is a slight but very relevant difference here. That is if you are under 23, all you have to do is wait until your 23rd birthday and then carry on. Once you reach 60, you are done, you can't turn the clock back.

Waiting until you turn 23 could mean you may not get that airline job that requires an ATP. For arguments sake, say you are 21 and airlines are currently hiring (atp req'd), by the time you become 23, they may or may not be hiring and you may lose 2 years of seniority. And like you said, you cant turn the clock back to get the loss in seniority or to get the airlines to hire.

Just my 2 cents.


aj

 

[b757driver]

True - but you are still in a better position. Taking your argument one step further, if the airlines are not hiring, then the 58-year-old, say, also loses out and not just in terms of seniority. Basically, everyone loses some time. However, the 21 year old just has to be patient & diligent & his time will come. For him/her, it can only get better.
Once you're 60, no amount of waiting will help, it's completely out of your hands, which is exactly my point!

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

And my point is that human physical and mental performance decreases with age. The rule has contributed to our wonderful safety record, and I see no reason to risk that because some are unsatisfied with their pensions.

 

[b757driver]

OK, then why don't surgeons retire @ a mandated age? They have just as much "safety" related issues to deal with as we have, and more often. Presumably, they too, lose physical and mental performance as they age - just like the rest of us!
To insinuate that at age 60, you are incapable of functioning is absolute garbage. Maybe SOME people, but certainly not all. And it's not just about retirements, it's about freedom of choice, you know, that stuff our troops have been fighting for.......

 

[b757driver]

The rule has contributed to our wondeful safety record, and....

And what wonderful safety record are you referring to? And over what period? Where's the evidence?

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

Uhhh, the lack of planes falling out of the sky?




I wonder why ATC personnel have to retire at 56? Don't they know about the surgeon thing? I wonder why I couldn't get my driver's license before 16. Isn't that freedom of choice? Isn't that what the troops are fighting for.

Don't wrap yourself in the flag during this debate.

P.S.
I did not say that they were incapable of functioning. I said their performance decreases as they age. I stand by that statement.

Thankfully, the FAA and the Senate agree with me.

 

[General Lee]

FlyDeltajets,

I understand where you are coming from, but I don't think age is the major problem here---it is changing the rules. I think someone who flies allnighters all the time or lots of Intl flying and the subsequent crossing of many time zones could be so tired that he/she might also be a "danger", and that person might only be 50 years old. Someone who flies a turn from ATl-PHX and back with respectable hours (like a 10am duty in and a 8pm duty out) might be fine until he/she is 70. I think it depends on the conditions, or the routes and types of flying. Most of the senior pilots at Lufthansa fly European Domestic on the 737. But, the main deal here is changing the rules to benefit a few with lousy contracts. It's not like these people did not know what age they were supposed to retire at. They knew this all along and won't admit it to you. Oh yeah, things have changed..... They should have pushed harder for better retirement packages, or maybe invested better, or maybe they should have only married once.
I keep pointing out that our retirement rule is better than others---Switzerland has a mandatory age 55 retirement for airline pilots. And, I know that Britian has an age 62 retirement now---but maybe they have a shortage, but we do not here. We have massive unemployment at the airlines and it possibly could get worse, but some people want to stay on past 60 because of their bad contracts. That luckily won't happen for a while longer.

Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

You make good points as well. Nothing like trying to change the rules in the fourth quarter once you realize you are losing the game!


P.S.
Just an analogy. I don't mean to imply that anyone is "winning" or "losing." Just a little humor.

Besides, judging from my aviation career over the last year, I certainly don't consider myself to be winning anything!

I still, however, believe that the first rule we should always ask when contemplating a rule change is will this make flying more or less safe. I believe it to be the latter, and therefore cannot support changing it.