Age 60 informal poll

[jbDC9]

Your post makes no sense. Clearly I said that my replacement comes to the bottom of the pile, meaning the new-hire f/o at some commuter/regional airlline.

Okay then, if that strokes your ego, go with it. Your earlier post shows your attitude; that the senior experienced pilots (i.e., YOU) are like gods, irreplaceable by some snot nosed "low time" new guys. You prefer to just gloss over the fact that you were once an inexperienced new hire yourself... so, using your ridiculous "logic", the air travel industry was less safe when you plopped your newly hired ass into the F/E or F/O seat. But now that you're a senior captain, that just doesn't matter; pilots with less experience appear to be beneath you, and I don't mean on the seniority list either. Nice attitude.

Quit yer bitchin' about safety or discrimination. It's all about money and ego for you.

 

[Phaedrus]

Quit yer bitchin' about safety or discrimination. It's all about money and ego for you.

Bob, tell him what he's won!

 

[pipe]

UF is fond of including deep and moving quotes from the likes of Abraham Lincoln and others in his posts - here are a few for him to consider:

"Everybody needs his memories. They keep the wolf of insignificance from the door."
— Saul Bellow
(1915-2005) U.S. (Canadian born) writer - wrote novels, short stories and plays; won Nobel Prize for Literature (1976); won Pulitzer Prize for Humboldt's Gift (1975)

Kahlil Gibran (1883-1931) Lebanese poet
"I have learnt silence from the talkative, toleration from the intolerant, and kindness from the unkind; yet strange, I am ungrateful to these teachers."

Tommy Lasorda (1927-) U.S. baseball manager
"About the only problem with success is that it does not teach you how to deal with failure."

Dave Allen (1936-2005) Irish comedian
"I still think of myself as I was 25 years ago. Then I look in a mirror and see an old bastard and realize it's me."

Jimmy Connors (1952-) U.S. tennis player
"Experience is a great advantage. The problem is that when you get the experience, you're too danged old to do anything about it."

John McEnroe (1959-) U.S. tennis player and sportscaster
"I am not having points taken off me by an incompetent old fool. You are the pits of the world."

Abigail Van Buren (191, (Pauline Esther Friedman; Mrs. Morton Phillips) U.S. advice columnist
"Wisdom doesn't automatically come with old age. Nothing does - except wrinkles. It's true, some wines improve with age. But only if the grapes were good in the first place."

Neil Armstrong (1930-) U.S. astronaut
(About Charles Lindbergh) "He did it alone. We had a cast of millions." (editors note: Could Neil Armstrong have been talking about UF?)


Hannibal Lecter detective/crime film character
"I do wish we could chat longer, but I'm having an old friend for dinner."

Enjoy-

PIPE

 

[skiandsurf]

No they do not have any over age 60 flight instructors in the training department. ALPA has put a stop to any chance of allowing the over age 60 guys back in any capacity. This has been the policy for years.

I know that UAL used to have "over age 60" guys working the panel. Wasnt aware of ALPA being against that. If you really want to work and provide for your family, maybe this should be your real fight. I dont think there is a FAA regulation about teaching over age 60. Now you might have a legitimate age discrimination law suit on your hands.

Do any other airlines allow over age 60s to instruct? I know at my last job, we had at least one, maybe two.

Any US airlines that still have engineers, and do they have over age 60 guys working still? How about FedEx or UPS, any over 60 FEs?

 

[FoxHunter]

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles/2006/11/28/Navigation/177/210768/Pilots+could+fly+on+until+they+reach


Pilots could fly on until they reach 70
By David Learmount

JAA medical committee sees nothing against fit crew

The European Joint Aviation Authorities medical committee has agreed that there is "no medical reason" why airline pilots should not be permitted to continue flying until they reach 70 years of age.
The finding has been revealed as an International Civil Aviation Organisation resolution permitting pilots to fly to age 65 was implemented last week.
Speaking at Flight International's Crew Management Conference in Brussels last week, aviation medical consultant Dr Ian Perry said that the JAA medical committee has agreed that a fit 70-year-old should not be prevented from commanding a commercial air transport aircraft on medical grounds.
At the conference, the chairman of the Singapore Civil Aviation Medical Board, Dr Jarnail Singh, who also chaired the ultra-long-range task force and is a member of the Flight Safety Foundation crew alertness committee, said that in examinations of factors affecting crew fitness to work on ultra-long-range flights - such as Singapore-New York non-stop - pilot age was determined not to be an issue.
Perry, meanwhile, said that while airlines find clinical diagnosis of chronic fatigue "difficult to accept", if an accident is fatigue-related the airline is responsible for it. While making it clear that such events were rare, he revealed that the reduced freedom of movement imposed on long-haul pilots by the need to lock cockpit doors has resulted in flightcrew sleeping on the floor behind the pilot seats.
The US Federal Aviation Administration has set up a forum to investigate if US commercial pilots should be allowed to fly past the age of 60, in line with the new ICAO rules.
ICAO has increased the upper age limit for pilots to 65, provided that one of the pilots in the cockpit is under 60. Medical experts and FAA personnel will be joined by representatives from airlines and pilot unions in the Age 60 Aviation Rulemaking Committee to examine whether the USA should follow suit.

 

[Flopgut]

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles/2006/11/28/Navigation/177/210768/Pilots+could+fly+on+until+they+reach


Pilots could fly on until they reach 70
By David Learmountquote]

Here we go guys....They already want more than 65! Told you they would!

We change it once, and it will never end.

 

[Freight Dog]

I'd like to know which airline and 70 year old crew they observed making ultra long range flights on a regular basis.

Here is a legitimate question I'd like answered by the pro-change crowd.

If your crew was to tell you that you're falling behind the power curve, and that you're becoming a burden on them as opposed to an asset, would you believe them or would you dismiss them as just someone trying to kick you out of the left seat?

 

[Sporto]

negatory on this story!

 

[Andy]

Your post makes no sense. Clearly I said that my replacement comes to the bottom of the pile, meaning the new-hire f/o at some commuter/regional airlline.

UF, you are truly an idiot savant. A furloughee will replace your pompous azz in the cockpit. I have a 22 Jan recall class; just 7 days before you're put out to pasture. I will go on mil leave, but I know that all of the pilots on the UAL seniority list below me are well qualified.
Here's how it's going to go with your replacement. A 767 Captain will bid up to 777 Capt and replace you. Three cheers! A 737/320 Captain will bid up to 767 Cap. A 777/400 FO will bid up to 737/320Capt. A 767 FO will bid up to 777/400 FO. A 737/320Fo will bid up to 767 FO. A furloughee will be recalled to fill the 737/320 FO vacancy. And your azz will be, thankfully, retired. 29 Jan. Let's count the days. Less than 65.

I'm amazed that you or any other idiot thinks that the rule is going to change any time soon.

You have besmirched yourself so much on this and other boards that I would be surprised if many attend your retirement cake cutting. Hopefully they'll forget to call the fire dept. You have proven that you don't deserve such an honor. You, sir, are a small c.

 

[walden]

That's a gauntlet right across the chops.

 

[The Prussian]

UF, you are truly an idiot savant. A furloughee will replace your pompous azz in the cockpit. I have a 22 Jan recall class; just 7 days before you're put out to pasture. I will go on mil leave, but I know that all of the pilots on the UAL seniority list below me are well qualified.
Here's how it's going to go with your replacement. A 767 Captain will bid up to 777 Capt and replace you. Three cheers! A 737/320 Captain will bid up to 767 Cap. A 777/400 FO will bid up to 737/320Capt. A 767 FO will bid up to 777/400 FO. A 737/320Fo will bid up to 767 FO. A furloughee will be recalled to fill the 737/320 FO vacancy. And your azz will be, thankfully, retired. 29 Jan. Let's count the days. Less than 65.

I'm amazed that you or any other idiot thinks that the rule is going to change any time soon.

You have besmirched yourself so much on this and other boards that I would be surprised if many attend your retirement cake cutting. Hopefully they'll forget to call the fire dept. You have proven that you don't deserve such an honor. You, sir, are a small c.

Andy...You can debate the issues all you want...but I've never heard UF personally deride you, call you names, or wish ill upon you. He debates the issues staying above the belt, and conducts himself as a gentleman on this board IMO. If you're furloughed, he's not the one whose kept you out of a job (he's been in his 50's throughout this exchange)...it's your management that's made some pretty big missteps...and your union is not without blame in this either. You're the one who's sounding like a pompous idiot.

While UF appears to be a class act, you and FD appear to be in class envy....if not class idiots.

 

[Freight Dog]

Prussian... I'm sorry, but when the man says his coworkers at UAL are not experienced enough to replace him, that man is spitting in the face of every UAL pilot out there that's below him on the seniority list, from the freshly recalled A320 FO to the seniormost 767 captain, then in the same post proceeds to use various accidents and attributes them to "inexperience" despite the official probable causes. Not only did he lose his credibility with that crap, but the whole post was insulting and offensive even though he didn't call anyone names.

If you failed to notice that, regardless of which side of the argument you're on, your cognitive and mental abilities should be challenged.

 

[Flybynite]

Prussian... I'm sorry, but when the man says his coworkers at UAL are not experienced enough to replace him, that man is spitting in the face of every UAL pilot out there that's below him on the seniority list, from the freshly recalled A320 FO to the seniormost 767 captain, then in the same post proceeds to use various accidents and attributes them to "inexperience" despite the official probable causes. Not only did he lose his credibility with that crap, but the whole post was insulting and offensive even though he didn't call anyone names.

If you failed to notice that, regardless of which side of the argument you're on, your cognitive and mental abilities should be challenged.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't you post this garbage basically "spitting in the face" of every captain you fly with?

"But I can't tell you how many mistakes I catch from older guys, from simple math and simple paperwork, to them just not quite "getting" the re-route clearance, to confused looks when things don't quite go the way things normally do, to simple multitasking, to them "forgetting" to flare, the list goes on and on. But man, God help me if I so much as suggest that they're not quite as healthy and able as they once were. They are up at arms, and they ALL think they can keep trucking well beyond 60. "

Guess you don't remember that. Maybe you need to look in the mirror occasionally.

 

[Freight Dog]

Notice I said "older guys" and not captains.

The particular individual I'm talking about when I mentioned "getting" the re-route clearance to simple multitasking was actually my SIC in King Air 350. Mind you, he was a retired heavy captain who still held on to his first class medical.

I didn't get into the age 60 debate with him. I just asked him if he felt he could go right back to the heavy without skipping a beat. His answer was "without a doubt."

Super nice guy! We had a great trip... But what I observed was that he refused to acknowledge aging, and that his cognitive and mental abilities started deteriorating with age. That's what worries me and what I find dangerous.

How about an instance when I flew with a now-retired captain who acknowledged the proper callouts on an ILS, yet didn't push up the power levers on an ILS and set off a stick shaker?? On top of that, I don't know what it was with him, but at night, he even admitted his night vision wasn't
"quite what it used to be" and his night landings were rather interesting... He had less than a year to retirement when this happened.

On the other hand, I flew with some super sharp captains who were sharp all the way to their retirement date.

My experience was that for every one pilot that's perfectly fine to keep going past 60, at least three to four aren't.

Now here's the problem....

How do you measure who's up to par at 60 and who's not? None of these examples I mentioned above were ready to hang up the headsets, yet they were more than ripe enough to call it a career. Those people are the problem.

Aging is a decline that people refuse to admit affects them. Do we need to wait for someone to auger in and go... well, they were too old and fell asleep or their bladder or ticker gave in, or they just didn't compute this right away? Or do we err on the side of safety?

Why mess with a safety item that's worked well in the past only to benefit minority at the expense of the majority?

 

[Flybynite]

Now here's the problem....

How do you measure who's up to par at 60 and who's not? minority at the expense of the majority?

Same way you determine if an f/o is capable of occupying the right seat, Checkrides and an FAA medical certificate. Trust me, there are plenty of captains who have a laundry list of f-ups by their f/o's, might even have your name associated with it.

 

[Freight Dog]

Well bud, that question is why the FAA hasn't raised the retirement age before. Apparently, they're not convinced that checkrides and medical are enough. I agree.

Throw in cognitive and mental abilities testing for anyone above age 45 or 50, and you might have a better case.

Your poor financial planning is not my emergency.

 

[Flybynite]

Well bud, the question

Well bud, the answer

 

[Freight Dog]

.....

 

[Flopgut]

Hey Prussian: This will be post 1310 on an 88 page thread, Undaunted has carried on like an aloof and pompous goofball the entire time. Andy has been furloughed for a very long time and isn't saying anything untrue or inappropriate, you think you can cut him a break?

 

[Flopgut]

I've written this before: This is like the NFL. THe hardest thing to do is get in the game. You might be a good player and be able to contribute, but if you don't get a chance on the field, you'll never break out. Tony Romo was content to work backup, learn the system and the offense. He's now a top rated QB, the team is doing well, and they can't line up mechandising fast enough for him. He got a shot, if the league was seniority based, he would not have. If Andy could directly replace Undaunted, he might prove to be a better heavy captain, and UAL might be better off. DOH makes you better off, but doesn't guarantee you're better.

 

[Andy]

Andy...You can debate the issues all you want...but I've never heard UF personally deride you, call you names, or wish ill upon you. He debates the issues staying above the belt, and conducts himself as a gentleman on this board IMO. If you're furloughed, he's not the one whose kept you out of a job (he's been in his 50's throughout this exchange)...it's your management that's made some pretty big missteps...and your union is not without blame in this either. You're the one who's sounding like a pompous idiot.

While UF appears to be a class act, you and FD appear to be in class envy....if not class idiots.

Prussian, the only difference between my insults and UF's insults is that I cut through the BS and post them straight up. No subtlties. UF, on the other hand, posts flamebait. You think that flamebait is honorable? Wow, I guess if I post negative statements about old geezers in general rather than specific, I too will be a gentleman.
(pause to allow our senior pilots to run and change their Depends undergarments).
None of us are irreplacable. Not you, not me, not the great UF. And our replacements will do the job at least as well as we did.

As for entirely blaming management for my extended furlough, that's BS. I blame radical muslims first. Management has some blame, but so do the pilots who remained on property at UAL. The pilots opted to gut the work rules so that UAL now needs ~20% less pilots to fly the same block hours. And I won't even try to assess how much longer was added to my furlough due to the 70 seat giveaway. There's plenty of blame to go around for my length of furlough; management isn't the only culprit.

I've barely posted on here since the elections so as not to rub it into the faces of Klako and UF. The simple fact is that the rule is NOT going to change any time soon, no matter how much you or they wish that it does.

To push for this change while so many pilots are on furlough is truly dishonorable. If you consider that to be an act of a gentleman, your moral compass is askew.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

UF, you are truly an idiot savant. A furloughee will replace your pompous azz in the cockpit. I have a 22 Jan recall class; just 7 days before you're put out to pasture. I will go on mil leave, but I know that all of the pilots on the UAL seniority list below me are well qualified.
Here's how it's going to go with your replacement. A 767 Captain will bid up to 777 Capt and replace you. Three cheers! A 737/320 Captain will bid up to 767 Cap. A 777/400 FO will bid up to 737/320Capt. A 767 FO will bid up to 777/400 FO. A 737/320Fo will bid up to 767 FO. A furloughee will be recalled to fill the 737/320 FO vacancy. And your azz will be, thankfully, retired. 29 Jan. Let's count the days. Less than 65.

I'm amazed that you or any other idiot thinks that the rule is going to change any time soon.

Andy: You certainly seem very high on your horse.

Now do you or does anyone really think that I don't know the promotion schedule of the replacements when a sr. captain retires? And of course when I said that my replacement comes on the bottom of the pile as an RJ F/O I was speaking in the most basic terms of where a new person starts in the chain. I am surprised it has taken me three postings to clarify this to those who wanted to take exception to that post.

Now regarding your suggestion that the age 60 rule change is a long way off, that is just not correct. It will either be done through this congress or possibly early in the next or maybe not at all in congress. In that case the FAA will make the change. And contrary to their usual rule making process requiring several years, this change is moving at a very fast speed. The change by the FAA alone will be in months, not years. It may even be in time for me, but it does not look promising for me at this time.

 

[The Prussian]

I've written this before: This is like the NFL. THe hardest thing to do is get in the game. You might be a good player and be able to contribute, but if you don't get a chance on the field, you'll never break out. Tony Romo was content to work backup, learn the system and the offense. He's now a top rated QB, the team is doing well, and they can't line up mechandising fast enough for him. He got a shot, if the league was seniority based, he would not have. If Andy could directly replace Undaunted, he might prove to be a better heavy captain, and UAL might be better off. DOH makes you better off, but doesn't guarantee you're better.

Flopgut...sounds to me like you've got more of a beef with the seniority system than anything else.

 

[The Prussian]

Prussian... I'm sorry, but when the man says his coworkers at UAL are not experienced enough to replace him, that man is spitting in the face of every UAL pilot out there that's below him on the seniority list, from the freshly recalled A320 FO to the seniormost 767 captain, then in the same post proceeds to use various accidents and attributes them to "inexperience" despite the official probable causes. Not only did he lose his credibility with that crap, but the whole post was insulting and offensive even though he didn't call anyone names.

If you failed to notice that, regardless of which side of the argument you're on, your cognitive and mental abilities should be challenged.

Freight Dog... I'm sorry, but you kinda lost me on your "Captain this, Captain that" tirade.

 

[Flopgut]

Flopgut...sounds to me like you've got more of a beef with the seniority system than anything else.

YUP! In the context of granting super seniority by simply changing the retirement age (functions JUST LIKE replacement workers), and the fact that change proponents want to be like ICAO carrirers, I think a change in the retirement age is a good time to throw out seniority.

Previous employment endeavors have shown me that, sans seniority, old people can't cut it. Old guys working other professional jobs don't make the preposterous claims senior pilots do because coworkers can, and will, take what they got. Unless they're really "that good", which is maybe 1 in 100; WAY off for pilots. Every old pilot thinks they're greatest. I'd love to see where some of these senior pilots would end up if we could somehow scale the real talents of all pilots in one big bid!

BTW, I'm not trying to suggest something of my own talents. Years and years of working within rank of some real locos has caused me to withdraw enthusiasm. I was better at one time.

 

[Flopgut]

Andy: You certainly seem very high on your horse.

Now do you or does anyone really think that I don't know the promotion schedule of the replacements when a sr. captain retires?

I don't think you understand it. You made a strong claim that the world will be less safe without your experience in the cockpit. Like you're a superhero or something! The system works, it worked when you upgraded, it will work when you leave. In fact, the pilot slightly junior to you who will go to HNL and eat at Chucks when you leave, might fly a smoother trip than you and be more enjoyable to dine with.

 

[Flopgut]

Andy: You certainly seem very high on your horse.

Another question: He's been furloughed a long time, do you think he should be "down and out" longer? Are you one of those guys who's ego can't tolerate the slightest assertion from a subordinate?

 

[two(2)%]

Undaunted:

When that day of reckoning arrives and you are suddenly unwelcome in the pointy-end of your H.M.S. Mainliner, will you resent those immediately younger than you who will benefit from this age change? Maybe your UAL neighbor at the fly-in community slightly fair of age will continue to enjoy his company sponsored purgatory and upgrade his outdated hangar while you struggle with the pitts annuals. Hopefully you will post here even when you're not in the game just to let us know how you are. After all, this is mostly about the principle of the whole stupid rule, isn't it?

 

[KCPilot]

Undaunted and all the other 50+ guys. I have a question. If the law is passed once you hit 65 years old are you going to say that it’s age discrimination again? What is the right age to quit flying professionally as an airline pilot? You guys are the experts after all, right? I’m asking because I’m getting tired of this BS I hear on this thread! I’m just a young guy here at a mire 34+ and you older guys know everything there is so please enlighten me what the future airline pilot should fly till? Looking at what the current retiring generation is saying (you), we should shoot for 70 or maybe 75+ (since we are all in good health) so we can fly for a major for 30 maybe 40 years and collect a REALLY good retirement. That is what it’s all about, right? Or is it the love of flying and safety you are selling the FAA, right? But in the end you’ll pass away so the airline does not have to pay the retirement out! Good for them, bad for us.

Bottom line is you older, senior guys like to work 5-10 days a month for 175K+ a year for not doing much work. You fly one trip and sleep for most of it, right! This way you can afford your 3 houses, 2 ex hag flt attended wives and boat in your retirement! Or you are making up for lost money? Hitting any sore spots yet? God I hope so!!! You guys in your 50’s want more (talk about the ME generation) and are going to make the rest of us work in an office until we have a heart attack and can’t fly for an airline, I’d like to thank you for that. Thanks for the dream Baby Boomer Pilot. Maybe we should make a beer commercial about this!

So a word of advice from the Gen X/Y Me Gen, etc- RETIRE and get what is your now to enjoy it why you can you old farts!!!! Otherwise you will be jerking the gear for a guy younger than you and be pissed off you are not in the left seat and making everyone else’s life miserable cause you can’t do your job. Face up to it, it’s time to time and enjoy the good life if you know what that is!

 

[pilotyip]

KCpilot has a great point there should be no mandatory retirement age, good going