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Age 60 informal poll

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Abolish the Age 60 Rule for other that Part 91 pilots?

  • Yea

    Votes: 668 35.5%

  • Nay

    Votes: 1,214 64.5%
  • Total voters
    1,882
Young and healthy are not necessarily universal, the trend may favor the younger, but there are many cases where this does not apply. At age 63 I know my BP, HR and ability still run an 8 minute mile, far surpass the condition and abilities of many of my younger cohorts. Bring on the enhanced medicals, thin out the ranks of the younger quicker.
 
Undaunted Idiot....

Please tell me your Ego is really not that big?
 
Sonny Crockett said:
Please tell me your Ego is really not that big?
Click to expand...

Ego? What ego?

I'm really a very normal family man and a caring person.

And I might mention that I have helped many others in this profession while I continue to do so.
 
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Wow! You've really gone off the deep end, Captain.

Let me dissect this garbage a little bit for your highness, Captain:

I was a captain on the same equipment as Klako. Were my passengers disserviced due to me only having had 1,000 hours in type when I upgraded?

Let's see... at Klako's airline, you have FO's with 2-3,000 hours in type that are significantly younger, and that also had the privilege of flying with CAPTAIN Klako. Are you suggesting they are unsafe to be captains, Captain?

I also think you owe Comair pilot group an apology for your disrespectful, egotistical, self-serving, WRONG analysis, Captain. Are you above NTSB too, Captain? We are definitely lucky to be blessed with your presence in our industry, Captain.

Cali accident was lack of experience, Captain? Wow...

Captain, did you know that you received an autostow of your speedbrake when you advance the throttles as a result of this accident? Of course you knew that, Captain.

Just for your entertainment, Captain.... here's the crew quals:


Pilot In Command First Officer
Age 57 39
Date of Birth 11/17/38 6/24/56
Date of Hire with American Airlines 9/22/69 10/11/86
First Class Medical Certificate Issued 12/7/95

5

Approximate Total Flying Time 13,000 hrs 5,800 hrs
Total on Type (B757/B767) 2,260 hrs 2,286 hrs
Total hrs last 90 Days 182: 13 163 :40
Total hrs last 60 Days 104: 14 101 :55
Total hrs last 30 Days 60:13 19:50
Total Last 7 Days 12:19 13:22
Accident Flight hrs (est.) 4:38 4:38
Hours On Duty Prior to Accident 5:58 5:58
Hours Off Duty Prior to Work Period 120+ (5 days) 120+(5 days)

Inexperienced crew, Captain? Yeah, they crashed because they didn't have you in the cockpit, right? 57 year old captain though.... hmmm. Shouldn't he have prevented this accident? I'm sure if he was 64, the outcome would have been different, right Captain? No, wait. It's because you weren't there to save the day, Captain.

Let's talk about LIT accident, Captain. Once again, you know better than the NTSB, Captain. They cited failure of the crew to discontinue the approach with fatigue being a major contributing factor. As you may not know, the captain was one of their chief pilots with only over 10,000 hours with only in excess of 5,500 hours in type. Highly inexperienced guy, right, Captain? The FO was a probie at a major airline... Good example, Captain!

The A300 accident in NYC. Another great example, Captain! The FO used excessive rudder inputs as a result of the quality training from American Airlines Advanced Maneuvering Course. Like I said, great example of the inexperienced crew, Captain... They just weren't blessed to have you in the left seat, Captain.

Man, I am surprised we're not all crashing around left and right because we're not blessed with your presence, Captain.

It's also funny how you bash your FO's, CAPTAIN.

My goodness, you are correct, Captain. We are all doomed when you are forced out, Captain. Thank you again for the opportunity to learn from the born 777 captain, Captain. The day you retire is going to be one of the darkest days in the U.S. airline industry, Captain.

I just hope you retire, as opposed to slumping over the controls Captain, because your FO will probably crash the plane because they are too inexperienced and unable to fly parallel visual to 28R in SFO or 35L at DEN, Captain.

Thank you for your 37 years of service, Captain.


UndauntedFlyer said:
Freight Dog: This just isn't so. The regional airline F/O's are all qualified but they all lack the experienced of their senior captains. Klako is a very experienced Regional captain and I'm sure his experience enhances safety to a great degree at his airline. If he has to retire, it will be a great loss to the passengers and their safety. Experience comes one day at a time and it can not be obtained any faster than that. The LEX accident was the result of a lack of experience. The Calie accident was from a lack of experience. The LIT accident was from a lack of experience. The A300 accident in NYC was from a lack of experience. And not long ago my two F/O's were fully ready to allow me to taxi to and takeoff from a runway that was too short. The reason: A lack of experience and knowledge regarding the fact that the last portion of that runway was closed for construction. It was the experience of a senior captain that prevented what could have been a serious situation. Just the other day, I chose to fly the leg to SFO because I was well aware of the possibility of flying close parallel visuals to the 28’s. And sure enough it was just that. My formation experience told me that the guy in the left seat must fly that approach to 28R. Then there was the visual approach to 35L at DEN, when my international F/O lined up on the left side for the 34’s. All of these situations demonstrate crew concept and how it is experience that counts more than anything else.

So let me say this for certain: EXPERIENCE COUNTS, AND THERE IS NOTHING ELSE LIKE IT THAT WILL ENHANCE SAFETY TO SUCH A DEGREE.
Click to expand...
 
Undaunted Flyer is NOT speaking for the UAL pilot group.


I am ashamed of his comments and hope you all understand that every Village has an idiot.
 
UndauntedFlyer said:
Freight Dog: This just isn't so. The regional airline F/O's are all qualified but they all lack the experienced of their senior captains. Klako is a very experienced Regional captain and I'm sure his experience enhances safety to a great degree at his airline. If he has to retire, it will be a great loss to the passengers and their safety. Experience comes one day at a time and it can not be obtained any faster than that. The LEX accident was the result of a lack of experience. The Calie accident was from a lack of experience. The LIT accident was from a lack of experience. The A300 accident in NYC was from a lack of experience. And not long ago my two F/O's were fully ready to allow me to taxi to and takeoff from a runway that was too short. The reason: A lack of experience and knowledge regarding the fact that the last portion of that runway was closed for construction. It was the experience of a senior captain that prevented what could have been a serious situation. Just the other day, I chose to fly the leg to SFO because I was well aware of the possibility of flying close parallel visuals to the 28’s. And sure enough it was just that. My formation experience told me that the guy in the left seat must fly that approach to 28R. Then there was the visual approach to 35L at DEN, when my international F/O lined up on the left side for the 34’s. All of these situations demonstrate crew concept and how it is experience that counts more than anything else.

So let me say this for certain: EXPERIENCE COUNTS, AND THERE IS NOTHING ELSE LIKE IT THAT WILL ENHANCE SAFETY TO SUCH A DEGREE.
Click to expand...

I completely disagree with you. Klako states earlier in this thread that he has applied for numerous jobs as age 60 retirement gets closer and admits no one wants to hire him. Interesting. He has all that experience but can't get a job...Why would that be? Because Klako doesn't compare favorably with the kind of pilots that have been furloughed, marginalized or are otherwise competeing for jobs. If he was that great, there would be a job looking for him! Could he get re-hired for the job he has now? I don't know. I'm sure they probably like him. I'm sure he is competent and safe; but could he get hired out of the existing pool of candidates? Doesn't sound like it!

I can't stand this debate. It's just like the guys who crossed the picket line. Personal need overwhelms ANYTHING else. You'll fabricate whatever rational is necessary as soon as you get your way.
 
Experience is gained one day at a time. Experience may be gained even when you're not flying such as from reading accident reports or reports of the mistakes of others or from the mistakes of your own. It even helps to read the posts on FI.

From the LEX accident we are reminded of the mistakes of rushing to get airborne instead of slowing down to look things over, rechecking and reconfirming everything. From the Cali accident we learn, most importantly, of the need to carefully manage the FMS and question any clearance of which we are uncertain. While the failure to retract the speed brakes promptly was a factor, that was not the cause. From the A300 accident we learn to be cautious of information that sounds contrary to everything we know about structures. So called experts are not always correct in the information they put out. And from the LIT accident we learn to not accept an extension of the duty day to the point of assignments that will result in serious fatigue. If you're too tired to fly, don’t. And finally, are you suggesting that flight managers are some of the best pilots?

Now regarding my colleagues and F/O's that I fly with. All do a great job and we always work as a team, helping each other and catching each others mistakes. I catch no more of theirs than they do of mine. In fact, I will say that they do seem to catch more of mine, and I am grateful to have their help. My point in the examples I have presented is that experience counts in a major way.

Using SFO as an example: I had an F/O flying the 28R visual and we happened to be very close to the parallel visual traffic on 28L. We were so close that he said he just couldn't see the traffic from his position and asked me to fly the rest of the way in. That was good judgment on his part. When I fly from LAX to SFO, assuming we will probably land 28L, I always try to have the F/O fly that leg so he can get a better view in order to provide the visual separation. Does this make any sense to you I must ask? Of course the decisions here are made from experience and have nothing to do with the skill level of captains or f/o’s.

Regarding the DEN arrivals, from my own mistakes, I am always prepared and ready for the confusion that exists between the East and West parallel 34/35 runways and the same is certainly true in LAX. This is called experience and it enables us to make so few mistakes that the airline safety record is incredible considering the number of departures and arrivals that occur each day.

So in the end, I am certain that if KALKO retires on his 60th birthday as a highly experienced captain, or if I retire or any other captain with all that experience gained over probably 40 years of aviation, it will not be safer, it will only be missing some of the most experienced pilots who may possibly be able to prevent their flights from falling into the many traps that can arise in day to day flying.

Now, does anyone really believe that by having our most experienced pilots retire while in what I believe to be the peak of their career, replaced by a new hire starting at the bottom of the pile, that that will make the world safer for the traveling public? I certainly think not and it is the majority of the ARC comments that agree with my view.

And that is why the age 60 rule will soon change. As I have said, I may make the cut and I may not, but in either case the rule will be changing sooner rather than later. Does anyone really disagree with this?
 
Last edited:
UndauntedFlyer said:
Experience is gained one day at a time. Experience may be gained even when you're not flying such as from reading accident reports or reports of the mistakes of others or from the mistakes of your own. It even helps to read the posts on FI.

From the LEX accident we are reminded of the mistakes of rushing to get airborne instead of slowing down to look things over, rechecking and reconfirming everything. From the Cali accident we learn, most importantly, of the need to carefully manage the FMS and question any clearance of which we are uncertain. While the failure to retract the speed brakes promptly was a factor, that was not the cause. From the A300 accident we learn to be cautious of information that sounds contrary to everything we know about structures. So called experts are not always correct in the information they put out. And from the LIT accident we learn to not accept an extension of the duty day to the point of assignments that will result in serious fatigue. If you're too tired don't fly, don’t. And finally, are you suggesting that flight managers are some of the best pilots?

Now regarding my colleagues and F/O's that I fly with. All do a great job and we always work as a team, helping each other and catching each others mistakes. I catch no more of theirs than they do of mine. In fact, I will say that they do seem to catch more of mine, and I am grateful to have their help. My point in the examples I have presented is that experience counts in a major way.

Using SFO as an example: I had an F/O flying the 28R visual and we happened to be very close to the parallel visual traffic on 28L. We were so close that he said he just couldn't see the traffic from his position and asked me to fly the rest of the way in. That was good judgment on his part. When I fly from LAX to SFO, assuming we will probably land 28L, I always try to have the F/O fly that leg so he can get a better view in order to provide the visual separation. Does this make any sense to you I must ask? Of course the decisions here are made from experience and have nothing to do with the skill level of captains or f/o’s.

Regarding the DEN arrivals, from my own mistakes, I am always prepared and ready for the confusion that exists between the East and West parallel 34/35 runways and the same is certainly true in LAX. This is called experience and it enables us to make so few mistakes that the airline safety record is incredible considering the number of departures and arrivals that occur each day.

So in the end, I am certain that if KALKO retires on his 60th birthday as a highly experienced captain, or if I retire or any other captain with all that experience gained over probably 40 years of aviation, it will not be safer, it will only be missing some of the most experienced pilots who may possibly be able to prevent their flights from falling into the many traps that can arise in day to day flying.

Now, does anyone really believe that by having our most experienced pilots retire while in what I believe to be the peak of their career, replaced by a new hire starting at the bottom of the pile, that that will make the world safer for the traveling public? I certainly think not and it is the majority of the ARC comments that agree with my view.
Click to expand...

UF, I have always thought that you were one arrogant idiot. Now the whole group sees that I was right.

In your own words, you make mistakes and your FOs catch them. Maybe this is another mistake that you cant notice and the FAA is trying to tell you.

This system has always been about "retiring at age 60". You benifited from it, now "its not fair". And come on, 17,500 hrs in 40 years of flying? How current or competent are you? Most 40 yr old regional pilots have close to that amount of flight time. And how can you compare the female pilot that wants to provide for her family. Wasnt that your goal when you were raising young kids? I am sure that she and her husband are also planning (and preparing) on one hell of a retirement life, when they turn 60. Werent you doing that when you were 40 yrs old and raising a family?

Face it, you are an idiot.
 
Regardng flight time, I fly 800 hours per year airline and 100 hours GA, so I probably have much more than 17,500 hours. I just don't add it up very often.


But lets talk about experience. Experience is gained one day at a time, not one hour at a time.
 
UndauntedFlyer said:
Regardng flight time, I fly 800 hours per year airline and 100 hours GA, so I probably have much more than 17,500 hours. I just don't add it up very often.


But lets talk about experience. Experience is gained one day at a time, not one hour at a time.
Click to expand...

You are in to this "experience is gained one day at a time, not one hour at a time".

Lets say that a "regional pilot" flies 6 flights a day and flies 17 days a month, for a total of 85 hrs a month.

The 59 yr old 777 captain flies 2-4 flights a week and flies 11 days a months, for a total of 65 hrs.

First off, the regional pilot is flying more days, therefore is more experienced.

Second, who is more up to speed on takeoff and landings (the most dangerous part of any flight) ?

Last, I want a pilot that is current (not the AA ORD Chief Pilot or sim instructor) and sharp (like your FOs that have to catch your mistakes).
 
Even if the age goes to 65, people are going to retire, and new hires are going to come on board. I don't disagree that when someone retires there is experience leaving us, what I disagree with is the slant that the pro-change crowd is throwing out there to try and sway public opinion.

For instance, a newhire is not going to replace Capt. Undaunted, but rather an experienced first officer or narrow body captain will. I could go on, but doing so here would be preaching to the quoir, we all know how the system works.

Planes are not going to fall out of the sky if age 60 does not change. I'm not really opposed to 65, I just wish the distinguished fellows facing retirement soon could argue their point without all the drama and hysteria. I would be more inclined to support change if these fellows would quit putting others down in the process.
 
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It's not even the "put downs" that fire me up, it's the ridiculous notion that they're being discriminated against! Oh, the injustice!
 
skiandsurf said:
You are in to this "experience is gained one day at a time, not one hour at a time".

Lets say that a "regional pilot" flies 6 flights a day and flies 17 days a month, for a total of 85 hrs a month.

The 59 yr old 777 captain flies 2-4 flights a week and flies 11 days a months, for a total of 65 hrs.

First off, the regional pilot is flying more days, therefore is more experienced.

Second, who is more up to speed on takeoff and landings (the most dangerous part of any flight) ?

Last, I want a pilot that is current (not the AA ORD Chief Pilot or sim instructor) and sharp (like your FOs that have to catch your mistakes).
Click to expand...

Sorry but experience is gained one day at time yes, but that's whether you fly or not. The calendar starts on the day you take that C-172 intro flight. So unless you’re over 60, you'll never catch me. Of course, the more you fly the better you get too.

I do agree that the Regional Airlines and the LCC Captains must have some of the very best stick and rudder skills of any airline pilot.

Now Klako, then, he must be the best of the best. He has it all, LCC skills and years of experience. And yet you all treat him any any other pilot that disagrees with you with a lack of respect. All he wants to do, like me, is to continue in his profession as any person should have a right to do. And like you will all want to do too, that is if you really love this profession.
 
pilotyip you are to be cogratulated on your excellent physical condition. To be 63 and still be able to crack out 8 minute miles is outstanding. I'm 58 and strut around for days if I get in the 8 minute vicinity. I realize this has little to do with what's being discussed but was favorably impressed.
Back to name calling.
 

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