Age 60 informal poll

[Phaedrus]

Well, my Dad said that old people are senile and cr@ppy drivers. The point is, who cares what Henry Duffy said his "beliefs" are? My belief is that you should vamoose. Is that any less credible than Duffy's belief? I know your answer, but the real answer is no, it isn't. It is as credible and as valid as Duffy's "belief". Until the ol' Duffer brings out data that prove otherwise his belief will be what it will be. Nada.

 

[Sluggo_63]

My analogy is not perfect but if you fail to get the point then you have just admitted to yourself and everyone else that you are a part of the problem.

Your analogy isn't even in the ballpark. It's not even the same sport (apologies to Jules Winfield).

If you equate your out of left field analogy to the current age 60 rule, then you, sir, not I, are part of the problem.

 

[The Prussian]

Well, my Dad said that old people are senile and cr@ppy drivers. The point is, who cares what Henry Duffy said his "beliefs" are? My belief is that you should vamoose. Is that any less credible than Duffy's belief? I know your answer, but the real answer is no, it isn't. It is as credible and as valid as Duffy's "belief". Until the ol' Duffer brings out data that prove otherwise his belief will be what it will be. Nada.

Question...Do you apply the same logic to your Dad's quote as you do to "the 'ol Duffer" in the last part of your statement???

 

[Phaedrus]

I absolutely do, until pressed to go further in the analogy. The difference is there is plenty of a posteriori data to prove my Dad's point. A fortiori there is plenty of scientific data to support his position. The ol' Duffer has nothing but faith in his position until he presents data to the contrary.

 

[The Prussian]

I absolutely do, until pressed to go further in the analogy. The difference is there is plenty of a posteriori data to prove my Dad's point. A fortiori there is plenty of scientific data to support his position. The ol' Duffer has nothing but faith in his position until he presents data to the contrary.

I would suggest-iori that before you line up a posteriori data and then further buttress it with a fortiori data, that you first-iori define "old people" as a subgroup with an applicable age range. You could then tie your data to specific age ranges for valid data points. Until then....your Dad's quote will be what it will be. Nada.

 

[jbDC9]

Another great post by Klako. A good analogy. Listen to this man, he's earned his stripes the hard way. No one has a right to steal what he's earned. His house or his job.

No, it's not a great post, it's a worthless and stupid analogy. Earned his stripes the hard way?? Oh sure, just like the rest of us, get hired on and then watch the calendar. Like Phaedrus said, for you to give him an attaboy for that post is just ridiculous.

You and Klako keep harping on the junior guys "stealing" the senior guys jobs. Right. So, Mr. Undaunted, how many senior guys jobs have you "stolen" over the last 37 years as you climbed the seniority list to be a senior 777 captain?

I would suggest-iori that before you line up a posteriori data and then further buttress it with a fortiori data, that you first-iori define "old people" as a subgroup with an applicable age range.

Huh? Careful with that, you're gonna start sounding like Klako...

 

[walden]

deleted

 

[Phaedrus]

Prussian, smartass-edness aside, the onus is squarely on those in favor of change. Surely as a real smart, perfectly organized, logical Teutonic you know the basic rules of debate and reason. When that responsibility is fulfilled I'd be happy to respond. 1,026 posts into this melee and not one pro-change advocate has posted a serious case, based on reason, to change this rule.

 

[3BCat]

Wrong, Phaedrus, and I quote...

Hi Phaedrus. No age limit - No discrimination.

I see you're still trying to prove the logic of your stance, instead of standing for logic.

 

[Phaedrus]

3B: To even pretend to take that ridiculous positiion unveils pure ignorance or pure stupidity, you choose. 16 year old FO's? 90 year old Captains? Please, present an argument that isn't kindergarten level thinking. I suppose your next assumption will be that discrimination is bad. Guess what? We live in a world of discrimination. It can be bad, but not per se.

 

[Phaedrus]

chirp, chirp

 

[3BCat]

chirp, chirp

He..he..You said chirp, chirp. Thats the sound little birds make after they crap.

Age 60 is not as complex as you believe. If you don't understand my reasoning, don't get mad. Get an education.

I've stated my position before. Age of the pilot is not a deciding factor in pilot competence between the ages of 23 and 59. At 60 it becomes the only factor. Age 60 is not about flight safety. It's an arbitrary limit.

So, lets try this. How about establishing a pilots age equivalent, based on his physiogical health? People have failing health regardless of age, and we all age until death. This would place the onus on current and everchanging science, and the flight surgeon to establish the overall capacity of each airman, individually. The problem of course is you never know when you might fall below the guidelines. Age sixty is way easier to plan for. Most guys that medical out don't get to plan for it though, so I think it's no greater harm.

You and I may not make it to 60. Then again, we may both be too healthy to meet Dr. Kevorkian until well past 70. Longevity, medicine and overall health of our population has improved markedly since this law was put into effect. It's time to overhaul it.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Longevity, medicine and overall health of our population has improved markedly since this law was put into effect. It's time to overhaul it.

Very well said..

 

[Sluggo_63]

...deleted...

 

[Phaedrus]

Age of the pilot is not a deciding factor in pilot competence between the ages of 23 and 59

So which is it 3B? A couple posts back and you were arguing that "no age limit = no discrimination". Again, prima facia, if the discrimination boogie man is your real problem you're going to have to allow 18 year old FO's and 90 year old captains if they qualify. Your problem is you're so mired in your facade of discrimination that you can't even admit to yourself what your true motive is.

 

[Sluggo_63]

Very well said..

Really. I think the American Heart Association and the American Medical Association would beg to differ with you on the statement that Americans are overall healthier than they were 40 years ago. There have been advances in medicine which drive the longevity higher, but you just have more old, sick people vs. 40 years ago when they died with their illness.

Maybe this is why British pilots are able to fly to 65, but US pilots to 60. Published in the Journal of the American Medical Association.
http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/295/17/2037
Highlights:
[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Results The US population in late middle age is less healthy than the equivalent British population for diabetes, hypertension, heart disease, myocardial infarction, stroke, lung disease, and cancer. Within each country, there exists a pronounced negative socioeconomic status (SES) gradient with self-reported disease so that health disparities are largest at the bottom of the education or income variants of the SES hierarchy. This conclusion is generally robust to control for a standard set of behavioral risk factors, including smoking, overweight, obesity, and alcohol drinking, which explain very little of these health differences. These differences between countries or across SES groups within each country are not due to biases in self-reported disease because biological markers of disease exhibit exactly the same patterns. To illustrate, among those aged 55 to 64 years, diabetes prevalence is twice as high in the United States and only one fifth of this difference can be explained by a common set of risk factors. Similarly, among middle-aged adults, mean levels of C-reactive protein are 20% higher in the United States compared with England and mean high-density lipoprotein cholesterol levels are 14% lower. These differences are not solely driven by the bottom of the SES distribution. In many diseases, the top of the SES distribution is less healthy in the United States as well. [/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Conclusion Based on self-reported illnesses and biological markers of disease, US residents are much less healthy than their English counterparts (emphasis mine) and these differences exist at all points of the SES distribution.[/FONT]

 

[johnsonrod]

No way. I don't want a 64 year old cop or fire fighter protecting me either.

 

[Phaedrus]

johnson, you big meanie.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

To: Sluggo 63:
The report you have reference is a comparison of the USA to another country. My statement compared today’s population with the American population of 50 years ago. As I had said, today’s population is healthier. The 60 year old of today is only middle aged.

 

[Phaedrus]

Middle-aged? Funny. Lets' see, the middle, otherwise known as the center, sometimes known as halfway. I didn't know that most people live to be 120. Thanks for the education.

 

[Purpledog]

As I had said, today’s population is healthier. The 60 year old of today is only middle aged.

Obviously you don't work for FDX. One look around a 3am and you would change your tune. Fred will be dancing the jig if this rule is changed. Half those guys won't make it to 65 and if they do I'd double down on a bet that none will see 70. Not a lot of pension to pay out.

 

[3BCat]

So which is it 3B? A couple posts back and you were arguing that "no age limit = no discrimination". Again, prima facia, if the discrimination boogie man is your real problem you're going to have to allow 18 year old FO's and 90 year old captains if they qualify. Your problem is you're so mired in your facade of discrimination that you can't even admit to yourself what your true motive is.

Another psychologist, great. I have no other agenda than to see the rule changed. Age 60 is broke, let's fix it.

How about an exercise in logic, since you ignored my last scenario? Imagine just for a moment that Age 60 doesn't exist, and in it's place for the last 47 years was a rule that states "ATP certificate valid for thirty years from date of issuance. Non-renewable."

Could you get in line to support changing that law if it existed? Why or why not? What do you think my opinion would be, since my motives are so blatantly clear to you?

 

[Falconjet]

I would have no problem with that.

Got another argument?

FJ

 

[3BCat]

Yeah, I do. ...from my previous post.

So, lets try this. How about establishing a pilots age equivalent, based on his physiogical health? People have failing health regardless of age, and we all age until death. This would place the onus on current and everchanging science, and the flight surgeon to establish the overall capacity of each airman, individually.

 

[no1pilot2000]

"If" pilots can pass the 1st class medical past 60, then allow them to fly! I think the FAA should have a new age limit of 65 years old.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Senate Letter of Interest

United States Senate
Washington, DC 20510

September 28, 2006

The Honorable Marion Blakey
Administrator
Federal Aviation Administration
800 Independence Avenue, SW
Washington, DC 20591

Dear Administrator Blakey:

On November 23, 2006 the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) will adopt a new worldwide standard of age 65 for commercial airline pilot retirement. We fully support this new standard and agree that it should be adopted in the U.S. as well.

Although we were sorry to see that the U.S. was only one of the four countries to disagree with the adoption of this new standard, we are encouraged that you have decided to convene an Aviation Rulemaking Committee (ARC) to explore changes in the Age 60 rule for U.S. Pilots.

It is our understanding you have said that the FAA will not promulgate a rule to adopt the ICAO standard for American pilots this fall without a Congressional mandate. We understand international law dictates that the U.S. must allow foreign pilots over age 60 to work and fly in our airspace; it is our hope that as you revise the rule for foreign pilots to meet the new ICAO standard that you will insist American pilots are afforded the same right to work until 65.

As co-sponsors of S.65, we have worked tirelessly this session to provide the FAA with legislative guidance that would afford U.S. pilots the same right that you will be required to give foreign pilots this fall. We are hopeful that Congress will pass this legislation prior to adjourning sine die this year.

At the same time, you have assembled the ARC to advise you on changes to the rule. We will watch this process carefully and look forward to seeing the ARC report. We hope you appreciate that a finding which leads to a rule allowing foreign pilots to work and fly in the U.S. to age 65 without affording U.S. pilots the same privilege will not sit well with the American people and most Members of Congress.

In the process of adopting the new standard, ICAO studied more than 3,000 over-60 pilots from 64 nations, totaling at least 15,000 pilot-years of flying experience and found the risk of medical incapacitation “a risk so low that it can be safely disregarded.” A recent economic study shows that allowing pilots to fly to age 65 would save almost $1 billion per year in added Social Security, Medicare, and tax payments and delayed Pension Benefit Guarantee Corporation (PBGC) payments. The Aerospace Medical Association says that “There is insufficient medical evidence to support restriction of pilot certification based upon age alone.” American Association of Retired Persons, Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, the Seniors Coalition, and the National Institute of Aging of NIH all agree that the Age 60 Rule is simply age discrimination and should end. We agree.

As you begin the ARC, we ask that you do everything in your power to ensure American pilots are given the same opportunity as foreign pilots to work and fly in their own country.

Sincerely,

James M. Inhofe
United States Senate

Mike Enzi
United States Senate

John Warner
United States Senate


Charles Grassley
United States Senate

Sam Brownback
United States Senate

Conrad Burns
United States Senate

Johnny Isakson
United States Senate

Larry Craig
United States Senate

Rick Santorum
United States Senate

Wayne Allard
United States Senate

Ted Stevens
United States Senate

John Ensign
United States Senate

 

[3BCat]

U.F. Thanks for the post. Finally, some US Senators that can make sense in public, instead of losing sense in private.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Is 60 too old to be a pilot?
Question raised as ex-astronaut forced to retire from airline job</SPAN>
By BILL HENSEL JR.
Copyright 2006 Houston Chronicle
Robert "Hoot" Gibson was not the happiest camper Friday, despite a party in his honor.
Not only was the longtime astronaut piloting his last commercial airline flight because of a forced retirement, but the flight was five minutes late, to boot.
Gibson, a colorful member of NASA's elite astronaut corps who commanded four of the five space shuttle missions he flew, is ending a 10-year run with Southwest Airlines because he turns 60 on Monday, the mandatory retirement age for pilots in the U.S.
Gibson calls it blatant age discrimination.
"I'm not ready," he said.
He makes his complaint at a time when there's a chance the rule, enacted in 1959, could be changed, although whether it will remains to be seen.
The Federal Aviation Authority has launched a review to explore a possible change.
But the agency has made it known it doesn't want to act without a congressional mandate. Lawmakers could vote on pending legislation later this year.
Next month, the International Civil Aviation Organization is set to adopt a new worldwide standard of age 65 for commercial airline pilot retirement.
The organization believes member countries should increase the age limit, as long as the second pilot in the crew is below 60 and all pilots over 60 undergo a medical assessment every six months.
The U.S. is one of four countries that disagrees with the organization's change. The others are France, Pakistan and Colombia.
A cadre of senators who want the age limit changed wrote a letter to FAA Administrator Marion Blakeley several weeks ago noting that foreign pilots over 60 will be allowed to work and fly in U.S. airspace.
"We hope you appreciate ... allowing foreign pilots to work and fly in the U.S. to age 65 without affording U.S. pilots the same privilege will not sit well with the American people and most members of Congress," the letter said.
Sen. John Cornyn, R-Texas, co-sponsored the Senate legislation, a spokesman said Friday.
But there is a host of opponents, including the Air Line Pilots Association. The pilots' union long has favored the age limit and is not considering a change, said Pete Janhunen, ALPA spokesman.
But Gibson said ALPA members don't want the change because pilots who retire at 60 enjoy a hefty benefits package.
Janhunen acknowledged there are "financial implications."
A study earlier this year by airline analyst Darryl Jenkins determined that Senate Bill 65 would save the federal government almost $1 billion in delayed pension payments and added Social Security, Medicare and tax payments.
Southwest Airlines, whose pilots are not represented by the ALPA, is on record as supporting a change in the age limit, spokesman Ed Stewart said Friday, as does the Southwest Airlines Pilot Association.
Southwest's chairman, Herb Kelleher, has sent letters to Washington asking for the change to be considered, Stewart said.
"It's been in effect since 1959, and the world has changed," Stewart said.
Houston-based Continental on Friday deferred to its pilots union, which is affiliated with the ALPA.
Gibson noted that he passes two physicals a year, flies a large assortment of other types of aircraft and runs four miles a day several times a week.
There's never been an age-related accident involving a commercial aircraft, he said.
"It ought to be an on-condition type of thing," he said.
Friends and family attended the party at Hobby feting Gibson, who was chosen as an astronaut in 1978.
"Nobody can fly a simulator or a shuttle like Hoot Gibson," said former Southwest pilot and friend Dick East.
Gibson, who is married to shuttle astronaut Dr. Rhea Seddon, retired from NASA in 1995. He was inducted into the U.S. Astronaut Hall of Fame in 2003.
Many passengers on Gibson's last flight Friday came out smiling, such as Cindy Oravecz of Ohio, who flew to Houston to attend the annual quilt show.
"That flight was a real hoot," she said as she left the plane.
Video Link:
http://www.khou.com/topstories/stories/khou061027_gj_pilotsretire60.7e3e4603.html#

 

[bubbers44]

It will be a sad day when next month only foreign pilots will be able to fly to the US while all US pilots over age 60 will be grounded from flying airliners in the US.

How could the United States let this happen?

 

[Falconjet]

It will be a sad day when next month only foreign pilots will be able to fly to the US while all US pilots over age 60 will be grounded from flying airliners in the US.

How could the United States let this happen?

Yeah, I am all torn up about that.

Just more proof that we are the best country in the world.

FJ