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Age 60 Battle vs ALPA

FoxHunter

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www.apaad.org

August 17, 2005



RE: Revocation of ALPA Dues Check Off.



To say that we pilots are disgruntled with ALPA’s support of the Age 60 Rule would be somewhat of an understatement.



A good number ALPA pilots have approached me recently suggesting that resignation from ALPA would be a wise response to ALPA's position on the Age 60 rule. Many of these are very experienced individuals who have fought on behalf of their profession either as strikers at CAL, EAL, etc., or they are those who honored picket lines rather than take jobs, such as the Braniff pilots did.



To resign would, in effect, mean to go on strike against ALPA over its decadent and unethical position. I also know that it is difficult for many pilots to resign ALPA and "agency shop" contractual provisions would mean they would have to pay “germane expenses” anyway.



Therefore, the idea came up that, we should terminate our Dues Check Off (DCO) agreements with ALPA, thereby, delivering to the Association a meaningful message of discontent. Several FedEx pilots have informed me that they have already initiated the process. Current ranking MEC members at other airlines have told me that terminating DCO is a meaningful endeavor that causes increased administrative workload for ALPA.



Revoking DCO means that ALPA will have to send you a paper statement every month and you will need to write a check to them. Indications are that you may delay payment for several or many months before they threaten you with "Bad Standing," at which point you may catch up by sending in a check.



This is, in my opinion, an important inter-airline act of civil disobedience that is intended to get ALPA's attention.

It is up to each individual to make the decision for his-self based on ALPA's position on Age 60. If ALPA fails to respond, I expect to see resignations.



A number of pilots have informed me that they have also terminated their ALPA PAC contributions in protest over Age 60.



To revoke authorization of Dues Check Off: Send an email to:



membership@alpa.org



Provide your name, airline, and ALPA number. State that you wish to revoke your authorization for Dues Check Off because of ALPA’s Age 60 Rule position! Let’s have some fun!







Gary L. Cottingham
Communications Director
Airline Pilots Against Age Discrimination
Indianapolis, Indiana
317.513.0099 Sprint
317.498.6383 Verizon
garycottingham@comcast.net
www.apaad.org
 

TWA Dude

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ALPA is basically a democratic organization in that it's votes that affect its policies. Becoming a non-member means no vote which means no input. Their protest will not have the desired effect.
 

PCL_128

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Gary, what do you expect ALPA to do? We had an ALPA-wide survey in which a majority stated their wishes for ALPA's policy to remain unchanged on Age 60. Should we simply ignore the wishes of the majority to make the minority happy? I think not. ALPA has never operated in a way that seeks to appease the malcontents, and that's not going to change no matter how many cry-babies revoke their DCO status. If you want to change ALPA policy, then you'll need to convince a majority of the membership that it's a good idea. Until then, stop yer bitchin'.
 

semperfido

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i doubt this will be a very effective way to change the rule. it will probably alienate you even more from the rest of the alpa pilots you work with. work couldn't be much fun these days. :)
 
Last edited:

General Lee

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Age 60 is a safety issue. How many 60 year old policmen or firemen do you see out there? Pilots over age 60 have lost many functions---including needing to go to the bathroom a heck of a lot more--(at least our 59 year old pilots do)---and that is annoying. I am 40, and I am already forgetting stuff----think about 60 year old pilots. Sure, there may be a few that are supermen, but most are NOT. Ever needed a 62 year old Fireman to carry you backwards down a flaming staircase after you were knocked out? That is in his job description. Could he do it? Probably not. The Supreme Court just ruled that some jobs could have age discrimination (like those I have described) and threw out the lawsuit from those Southwest pilots. Time to go out on the golf course. If you didn't save enough or had 3 wivies, that is your fault. You knew the "rules" going in to this. ALPA also took a poll and the motion LOST. APA too.



Bye Bye--General Lee
 

FoxHunter

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General Lee said:
Age 60 is a safety issue. How many 60 year old policmen or firemen do you see out there? Pilots over age 60 have lost many functions---including needing to go to the bathroom a heck of a lot more--(at least our 59 year old pilots do)---and that is annoying. I am 40, and I am already forgetting stuff----think about 60 year old pilots. Sure, there may be a few that are supermen, but most are NOT. Ever needed a 62 year old Fireman to carry you backwards down a flaming staircase after you were knocked out? That is in his job description. Could he do it? Probably not. The Supreme Court just ruled that some jobs could have age discrimination (like those I have described) and threw out the lawsuit from those Southwest pilots. Time to go out on the golf course. If you didn't save enough or had 3 wivies, that is your fault. You knew the "rules" going in to this. ALPA also took a poll and the motion LOST. APA too.



Bye Bye--General Lee
Agreed, age 60 is a safety issue for ALPA. Just like the three pilots that were required to fly the B-737. How come we now have all these unsafe 737s flying around today with only two pilots?:)

The JAA in Europe has changed the age to 65, Japan has gone to 65, Canada, Australia, and NZ have no max age.
 

Laughing_Jakal

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Confessing to being a Union Buster?

Gotta wonder what FoxHunter's true agenda is when he is inflaming non-union sentiment in the middle of stalled negotiations at his company. Might be wiser to hold this internal pi$$ing contest in the bathroom or hold off until after the contract was wrapped up. If he did that, he could ensure he has a decent contract to fly under until his early (work induced) demise.

If'n he wants to live outta a suitcase at 68 and die young...that's his choice, but like I said, this is a strange time to be doing this....almost like he is an agent provocateur sowing discontent with union leadership. Comes straight out of the union busting guide book. He is advocating taking action that hampers legitimate union business and distracts from negotiating. Why not take the time instead to "educate" your fellow pilots on the issue? Stuff my mailbox with poorly thought-out arguments and sweeping generalizations like that other guy.

This guy is already a non-member, not just "not on dues check-off". He already quit the organization because (I believe) he thinks it has no value to him. So why does he care what position ALPA takes? If he thinks that ALPA's position is that important, then he believes ALPA has relevence, then he oughtta pay dues like the rest of us and get a voice. I'll hear him then, I'll listen to his arguments...if he paid his dues.

The bottom line, is that he knows ALPA's position has relevence and wants the dues paying members who are already doing his "heavy lifting" to do even more by taking up his cause. FoxHunter has proven he is a fair weather friend and I find it funny that he is involved with any organization of pilots "united" for or against anything because I can only see his self-interest at work.

Looks like he is on the "Payroll"...and I don't mean just the checks on the 15th and the 30th.
 

Flying Freddie

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General Lee said:
Age 60 is a safety issue.



Bye Bye--General Lee
Age 60 is a political issue. Wake up and smell the BK!
 

PHX767

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Flying Freddie said:
Age 60 is a political issue. Wake up and smell the BK!
B.S!

It's a retirement (no more A fund) issue!
 

Workin'Stiff

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Exactly! Age 60 really has nothing to do with physical/mental issues. With todays technology, more and more "flying" is being taken out of the pilots hands. Lets face it, we are becoming professional "monitors."

This issue comes to front row when the airline your working for declares bankruptcy and the nest egg you've built up is suddenly gone. I'd ventrue to say that most of these pilot are looking to work a few extra years to recover something... Even though they may be grabbing for straws...
 

michael707767

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TWA Dude said:
ALPA is basically a democratic organization in that it's votes that affect its policies. Becoming a non-member means no vote which means no input. Their protest will not have the desired effect.


Right on the money. I hate ALPA. Would love it if our pilot group left. But why would I quit and loose my ability to have a vote? Foolish.
 

330 man

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Sorry General Lee but age 60 has never been about safety. In the late 1950's the head of American airlines was having trouble with his senior pilots. They were starting to make too many demands on management about pay and scheduling. So he called the head of the CAB who happened to be a very close relative, (brother in law I think) and asked for help. The two of them came up a plan to set a manditory retirement age. They decided that 60 was a good number because it would rid AA of most of the trouble makers. Congressional hearings were held and the government doctors testified that a pilot over 60 "may not be as safe" as one who was under 60, and congress bought it. In all of the hearings since 1957 there has never been any evidence submitted showing that a pilot over 60 is unsafe.

It was originally a labor issue, and then became a political issue.

It does suprise me that alpa is not in favor of changing the rule, because I was surprised that the membership voted against it. There are 15000 pilots so far who have lost most of their retirement, and surly more wil follow. The only way to make it up is to work longer. Unfortunately that is not possible, partially thanks to our glorious leaders at alpa. In my entire career they have been nothing more than my $200 a month pen pals!
Regards,

330 Man
 

Freight Dog

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ALPA put out a survey of the ENTIRE active membership, not just some random people. ALPA membership has spoken and it has spoken against it.

Bear in mind, this did not include furloughed pilots who didn't find another employment, or anything like that. Just because you are close to 60 and want to keep working doesn't make your vote any more important than those of more junior FO's.

Now, had this happened in 1998, in the peak of hiring/record wages... you probably would have had a different result. Now..... the membership has spoken, and the old guys are throwing a temper tantrum instead of gracefully bowing to the majority.

Sad.... very sad...
 

WillowRunVortex

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Every other professional in the world strives for a fairly early retirement at a fairly young age. It is interesting that 121 airline pilots are the only professional group that is actually fighting to work longer. With the average salary and benefits of an airline pilot, if you cannot afford to retire at age 60, then yes, it is a mental issue.
 

semperfido

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WillowRunVortex said:
Every other professional in the world strives for a fairly early retirement at a fairly young age. It is interesting that 121 airline pilots are the only professional group that is actually fighting to work longer. With the average salary and benefits of an airline pilot, if you cannot afford to retire at age 60, then yes, it is a mental issue.
average salary and benefits of yesteryear you meant to say!:)
 

TheDonger

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You can tell whose getting a pension

Gee, somehow I think those that are against the over 60 rule would change their minds in a heartbeat if/when they lose their pension.
 

WillowRunVortex

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semperfido said:
average salary and benefits of yesteryear you meant to say!:)
Thank-you , exactly. This is all different of course for the young guys who are not yet worried about 60 and out.
 

General Lee

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FoxHunter said:
Agreed, age 60 is a safety issue for ALPA. Just like the three pilots that were required to fly the B-737. How come we now have all these unsafe 737s flying around today with only two pilots?:)

The JAA in Europe has changed the age to 65, Japan has gone to 65, Canada, Australia, and NZ have no max age.
MD11 Captain, huh? Thought so. You have a little more invested in this issue than most. Well, you may be Superman and have great health, but most of you DO NOT. As far as the 737 and the GIB (Guy in Back), that had nothing to do with health. We used to have ROPES (Real Old Pilots) fly FE on the L1011 and 727 until we got rid of them, but they were not allowed to "fly" the plane. I think the old timers should be retained in some way----like recurrent ground school or sim instructors. As far as the age rules in Europe and Japan etc-----that is just an accident waiting to happen. I believe the English version has the Captains demoted to FO, which is still unsafe IMO. IF you want to keep flying after 60, go corporate----which won't endanger as many lives. (unless you hit a 747)


Bye Bye--General Lee
 
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