Additional UAL Pilot Furloughs today

[iflyhigh72]

Now Now fellas, You both make some good points. Lets leave it at that. No need for blood shed. However, if you guys wanted to put on some boxing gloves and get into a ring, I got the perfect place. Ding Ding!!

 

[TurboS7]

Wow guys that was great, read it all guys whether the facts are perfect I don't have time to research it but that exchange was better than a good movie. It just goes to show you how far reaching those MEC decisions are and how they effect the one thing that we really cherish, our families.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

Let me guess. You separated your shoulder fighting someone. Isn't the object to hurt the other guy?

This is a very tiring debate, because, you fail to listen to anything I say, forcing me to repeat myself over and over. Would it help you if I typed with capital letters?

#1. Please go back an re read your cal forums. I answered every post that anyone ever posted to me, up until the point that it got repetitive and someone insulted me. I then posted that I was sick of going in circles and being insulted, and told people that I was leaving the board. I do not know, nor do I care what was posted after I left. I cannot be expected to reply to something that I did not read. By the way, if it was a PAA guy, he was probably complaining that DAL management screwed him...That is not my fight. There is nothing I can do about the actions of Ron Allen, and I did not, nor would I, defend him.

#2. I never said I was a part of the cal strike. I said my father lost his job. I have mentioned in the past that he was with EAL. I neglected to mention it in this thread. I apologize for the confusion. I only mentioned it because you questioned my right to post. I feel that my family was a victim of lorenzo, and that gives me enough perspective to discuss issues of airline history. Not that I need any excuse to post here.

#3. If you read my post again (see a trend yet?) you will see that I agreed that lorenzo bought FAL. I also said "Big Deal". Buying a carrier does not excuse any of his sins. You seem to think it does.

#4. If you don't care about pay scales, why did you bring up Delta Express? I am not "flouting" (were you trying for "touting"?) my pay rates. Once again, I was responding to one of your posts putting our pilots down for an item in our contract. If you ask anyone on this board, I have always hoped for increased pay for EVERY pilot group.

#5. I do not know the full details of the UAL battle with their management over FAL. I wasn't there. I am fully willing to admit that. However, I do know a few things. One is that they just finished battling Dick Ferris through a long strike. Two is that management gave them a self-imposed deadline of August 31 to reach an agreement. Management did not even come to the table until July 25. On Aug 24, a full week before the end of the negotiations, FAL ceased operations. UAL then said the deal was off because FAL was no longer a "going concern". It seems as if there was enough blame to go around, yet you seem content to only blame the UAL pilots. I doubt it was only about seniority, as you assert. I imagine that the main focus was on combining the operation and contract, just like the AMR Reno sickout. However, I am sure that seniority did have something to do with it. However, in every seniority battle, there is fighting. If we buy anyone, I certainly expect my union to fight for my seniority. By the way, how exactly did the UAL guys screw the FAL guys in the PEX negotiations again?

#6. Even if, as you say, the UAL guys screwed the FAL guys, don't you think you should give them a break? You accuse me of not letting go of the CAL scab issue. Again I say, I did not bring that up. You attacked the UAL guys first. It appears that you have trouble forgetting and forgiving. You say that for you, "the past is history". Yet you attacked a pilot group that has done more to advance this profession than any group I can think of. It appears you cannot forgive the percieved indiscretions of the UAL guys, but you defend the scabs at every opportunity. Perhaps you should take your own advice. I am not hung up on your scab issue. I have never insulted your current pilot group. I simply pointed out that if you feel like insulting a pilot group based on their past, you don't have to even leave your yard.

#7. For the record, I love flying for Delta. I was with TWA and was apprehensive about leaving such a great bunch of guys when DAL called. I had heard all of the comments about what jerks the DAL guys were. I was very happy when I came over here and learned wrong the rumors were. Pilots are pilots. There are jerks at every airline, and good guys at every airline. I will not generalize about a group, unlike you. I do not "continuously attack your pilot group". I have always said that the CAL pilot group (absent the scabs) seem like a great bunch of guys. I have never heard such a statement from you. It seems like the only group you never attack are scabs.

#8. I am not even going to respond to your offer of violence. What are you, 12? You made an implied threat. I don't think that you have the ability to back that up. Those who know me would agree. But, like I said in an earlier post, I'm not going to get into a pi$$ing contest with you over this. It is below me. You told me to watch my mouth. I called you on it. If you feel like you can back up your words, then do it. But I am not going to set up a meeting to meet you at recess. I don't have the time, nor the inclination. It all seems just a bit childish to me.

 

[Jetstone]

My vote

The Delta guy has my vote for a TKO in this debate. Handsdown.

 

[DIAMONDDD]

Man, that was FUN.

 

[Jeff G]

Jeez, guys. I light one match and whoosh! Up in flames. It was kinda fun to watch, in a rubbernecking, morbid kind of way.

 

[Boeingman]

QUOTE]Originally posted by FlyDeltasJets
Let me guess. You separated your shoulder fighting someone. Isn't the object to hurt the other guy?

[/QUOTE]

Did it on the heavy bag. BTW, the object is to take someone down without hurting them.

I don't listen to you because your words are slanted. I've been in this business a hell of a long time. Your ideals and attitude are going to be a real let down for you someday. To bad your Father hasn't instilled some reality in you about what can happen in this industry.

#1.

They were also the actions of your MEC. You were being insulted because you carried your same pompous attitude over there that you do here. Thing is, there were more CAL guys jumping in pointing out what a jerk you sounded like. Then the PAA guy TB posted a beautiful reply regarding the true PAA story at Delta. Never saw you again after that. I guess you can persuade many of these regional and corporate guys just starting out rather than people like me over there who know what they are talking about.

BTW, are you trying to impress people about being a DAL pilot with your moniker?

Also, everyone ignored you after you left. Good advice.

#2.

My family was a victim as well. Who cares? Everybody has a sob story. My warning to you is to be careful what you say and to whom. The EAL IAM did more damage than any CAL scab did. Those POS A300 you're talking about came to CAL because EAL defaulted on the leases. Believe me we wanted NO part of any of EAL assets because we wanted NO part of any EAL pilots trying to get seniority at CAL. Which they did and failed.


#3.

Never said that. I did say that no ALPA MEC came to their aid or help. They were flat out unemployed, busted with no prospects.
Much to the ire of CAL pilots, they were given their seats. Tell me, where did Dad go after EAL folded? What ALPA carrier offered him a job, with seat protection?

I'm trying to point out a true irony in your blind ALPA thinking here. Or are you so bent on an event that you had no part of you're not willing to admit it? Frank's sins started long before FAL. But I will tell you again you have never been tested at DAL. When the sh!t hits the fan, you never know who will walk.

#4.

Because you critized our "B "scale contract when your own pilots created that mess when ALPA has fought for years to get rid of the B scale. But that's all right because as long as Delta does it that’s fine. Is that what you're saying?

You mention $230/HR at the "end" of your contract just negotiated, yet you compare ours which is at the end of a 5 year term. Incidentally, that ALPA carrier you left (TWA) comparing contracts, the CAL contract is ten fold better than the crap you guys had there. So what? Everybody has a better deal than someone else. You're so happy to shove it in people faces when in reality, guys like me don’t care.

I can guarantee you that your pilots will never see those pay rates in this post 9-11 environment. Besides, with Air Tran bleeding ATL traffic dry it is only a matter of time. Go ahead, crawl back under that rock and pretend nothing is deteriorating in this industry.

I am very concerned that 2002 is a make or break year. If things go like the analysts are saying, we can all kiss these lucrative contracts goodbye. Don't say it won't happen at DAL either. Remember you were the guys who said they would never furlough. The pendulum is swinging the other way and it's picking up speed.

#5.

By UAL stalling and leading the FAL guys by the short hairs their cash position dwindled rapidly to the point when PEX bought them they had no leverage. A quick and dirty scenario but it summed it up nicely.

It was ONLY about seniority. FAL had some very senior pilots and UAL MEC wanted no part of integration with those DEN pilots.

Funny you're leaving out the part of the UAL MEC PUBLICLY insulting their brother ALPA members. You keep complaining I am "insulting" UAL, but you also keep failing to mention who spoke those words in the first place.

OUR union doesn't have to fight for seniority. Remember the ALPA merger policy? It takes away the fight like TWA /OZARK, REP/NWA
DAL/PAA UAL/PAA etc. etc.

#6.

I made a statement of fact about UAL. It is an insult to you because it doesn't register with all that ALPA kool aid you're drinking that there are ALPA carriers (yours included) that have truly destroyed pilot’s careers.

I defend the CAL pilot’s period. The scabs are here to stay. I don't care about them, neither should you? Why don't you concentrate on your own issues at DAL? I am proud of my pilot group. We have been through thick and thin and some very tough times. We are coming together for C02 and I feel we will achieve something on a scale better than before. Like we did better than several ALPA carriers in 97, again one of which was your old airline.

Another thing. UAL gave many of the CAL strikers "courtesy" interviews. Few were hired. Am I bitter? In retrospect it was the best thing to ever happen to me.

#7.

That's because I don’t care about the scabs. What still irritates me is the way some of you/our ALPA pilots are so blind to the industry. Having lived through an ALPA disaster, I get pretty angry seeing blind allegiance to them when they have royally screwed people over. You take it a step further by spin doctoring some true colossal screwups and make it sound like it is not an issue. Having lived through them, it is.

Absent the scabs? There you go again. You'd think I would be the one with heartburn over this issue having lived through it. Your continued comments about my pilots, scabs or not, is an insult.
You just sound like an immature little fool with your continued issues. You sound like a bigger idiot to those of us at CAL having:

A) Not even been on property before during or after the 83 strike.

B) have your own problems to worry about at Delta

I invite you in to our crew rooms at anytime to start one of your speeches. You will probably find a very unwelcome reception.

#8.

But you were the one that initially responded. I took you up on your veiled threat Do you type so much horsesh!t you can't even remember what you've written? The first mistake to not think.

Let me help you see through the fog:

I said "Watch your mouth" about my being a CAL pilot since you're initially inclined to think we're all scabs I was warning you that I would not take to kindly being a full term striker to listen to some little Delta putz make an assumption. You being the perfect example.

You replied:

By the way, I would be careful who you tell to "watch your mouth". I am quite confident that you wouldn't be able to do anything about it.

That sounds like a direct challenge to me sonny. Who called who now?

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

Son,

You have a serious comprehension problem that is equaled only by your tenuous grasp of the facts. For the THIRD time, PEX already owned FAL when UAL made the offer. Is that so difficult to understand? I laid out a timeline, even included specific dates, yet you still insist that UAL damaged the FAL pilots bargaining power with PEX. Let me say it for you again clearly. There is no way that the UAL pilots harmed the FAL pilots in their neg. with PEX because PEX bought fronteir BEFORE UAL made the offer. UAL was attempting to buy FAL from PEX. Got it yet?

Also for the THIRD time, I left your board before this manifesto you were touting (see, that's how you use it) appeared. Therefore, it did not chase me off the boards. You have a little bit of trouble with chronology, don't you?

Again, I brought up money and criticized your contract AFTER you insulted the Delta Express section of our contract. Wow, this is difficult. Is English your first language? May I suggest you invest in a reading comprehension course?

As to the rest of your comments, I will sum up a response in one paragraph. Contrary to what you think, I do not consider ALPA perfect. They have screwed up many many time, including during the EAL debacle. If you read my other posts on this board, you will find that most of my posts are about improving our union and profession. You, however, felt compelled to tear the UAL pilot group down. I defended them. I did not attack CAL, I offered them in contrast to what you accused UAL and DAL of. Have I forgiven the scabs? No, and I never will. You expressed concern about the direction in which our profession is heading. I too am concerned. The only weapon we have in protecting our profession is our unity. The only way we can maintain our unity is by exacting a price from those who betray us. Forgiving them helps no one and harms all of us. I believe ALPA chose money over principle when they allowed the scabs back in. However, that is not the issue I intended to debate tonight. All I wanted to say, before you brought the entire history of ALPA into the discussion, was that UAL has been an exemplary ALPA group (not perfect) who has improved our profession. Instead of sounding gleeful that they "get a taste of their own medicine", I attempted to thank them for their contributions and wish them the best. I hope all of them are back in the cockpit very soon.

 

[Boeingman]

Son,

You have a serious comprehension problem that is equaled only by your tenuous grasp of the facts. For the THIRD time, PEX already owned FAL when UAL made the offer. Is that so difficult to understand? I laid out a timeline, even included specific dates, yet you still insist that UAL damaged the FAL pilots bargaining power with PEX. Let me say it for you again clearly. There is no way that the UAL pilots harmed the FAL pilots in their neg. with PEX because PEX bought fronteir BEFORE UAL made the offer. UAL was attempting to buy FAL from PEX. Got it yet?

Also for the THIRD time, I left your board before this manifesto you were touting (see, that's how you use it) appeared. Therefore, it did not chase me off the boards. You have a little bit of trouble with chronology, don't you?

Again, I brought up money and criticized your contract AFTER you insulted the Delta Express section of our contract. Wow, this is difficult. Is English your first language? May I suggest you invest in a reading comprehension course?

As to the rest of your comments, I will sum up a response in one paragraph. Contrary to what you think, I do not consider ALPA perfect. They have screwed up many many time, including during the EAL debacle. If you read my other posts on this board, you will find that most of my posts are about improving our union and profession. You, however, felt compelled to tear the UAL pilot group down. I defended them. I did not attack CAL, I offered them in contrast to what you accused UAL and DAL of. Have I forgiven the scabs? No, and I never will. You expressed concern about the direction in which our profession is heading. I too am concerned. The only weapon we have in protecting our profession is our unity. The only way we can maintain our unity is by exacting a price from those who betray us. Forgiving them helps no one and harms all of us. I believe ALPA chose money over principle when they allowed the scabs back in. However, that is not the issue I intended to debate tonight. All I wanted to say, before you brought the entire history of ALPA into the discussion, was that UAL has been an exemplary ALPA group (not perfect) who has improved our profession. Instead of sounding gleeful that they "get a taste of their own medicine", I attempted to thank them for their contributions and wish them the best. I hope all of them are back in the cockpit very soon.

Son? Addressed to me? That would make you about 75 or 80. But it would explain your senility with many issues. Also you're down to insulting me my about my comprehension? What an original guy. Weren't you the one who said when you run out of substance you start insulting? What's the matter Mr. perfect? Am I getting to you?

UAL made several runs at FAL, they wanted that DEN hub so bad it drove Ferris nuts. Get your facts straight then come back and we'll talk. Bottom line, they screwed their ALPA brothers. Before, after, up, down, the end result was still the same.

Im still waiting for your response to the antics of these exemplary pilots calling their brothers "general practioners" as the UAL pilots are" brain surgeons" and "we want no part of them". LOL exemplary my a$$.


The EAL pilot's were fools to walk. They should of listened to Bavis (sp) instead of the radical element. But all is not well in airline land, the IAM is about to do another carrier in and ALPA will follow them right down the toilet.


I have no problem with chronology. In fact, your inane posts are still over there for all to see. It was actually funny seeing how they transpired and poof!!!!!!!!, you were gone. I stand by my previous post that you were way out of your league over there, and deep down, you know it.

Money over principle? Doubtful. Time to get everyone on board. I'd rather have the 1242 scabs on my side and keep them a part of our union to disable any ideas management may have.

Your shortsighted emotional agenda does nothing to help anybody in the long run. Extracting a price? Many of those same scabs were former ALPA members crossing because THEY felt betrayed. Does it ever occur to you that many of the scabs were an ALPA by product?

ALPA also lost the battle with Lorenzo long before when they did not do a SOS with NYA. Are you going to try and debate that with me as well? Ask your Dad why the EAL guys shot that idea down.

I also don't think any of the scabs tonight are losing any sleep because some Delta putz isn't forgiving them.

UAL an exemplary group? No way. FAL still burns through my family. Additionally, your exemplary pilots learned alot from the hardships and mistakes we suffered through in 83. But no where do I see you giving us any credit. Why is that?

Gleefull? Boy you sure like reading between the lines. Sad part of it is, none of the people leaving today had anything to do with the FAL debacle.

As far as the DAL Express, I get tired of listening about you complaining about scab wages when in fact., CAL pay is higher than several ALPA carriers. DAL Express's B scale is nothing more than a scab wage in my mind. And you DAL boys bit hook line and sinker. Now there is true unity for the profession as a whole.

BTW, are you the CVG sec/treas?

P.S. look up flout in the dictionary. you may even learn something tonight. You say tout, I said flout. Going to argue with Webster's now as well?

But in case you're to lazy:

Flout n: insult, mockery

1: scorn 2: to indulge in scornful behavior: mock

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

Wow, you are worse off than I thought.

Flout and tout are antonyms. They are completely opposite one another. Flout is to mock, tout is to praise or laud. You said I was flouting our payrates. Your quote was "you enjoy flouting your pay scales" You were wrong, just as you have been all night. You took the time to look up the word (I didn't have to, by the way) and you still got it wrong. Holy cow! This is too easy!

Sometimes, when people are wrong, they admit it and learn from the experience. You, on the other hand, prefer to change your story (PEX) or...or...well, I don't know what the hell you were trying to do with the tout thing. You were wrong and used a dictionary to prove it! What was that, the Jedi mind trick?

By the way, as long as you have the dictionary out, look up sarcasm. That's what I was using when I called you "son". Once again, as has become a theme in this conversation, I was responding to you. I believe you called me "son" first. I'm not your son (thank God), so perhaps we could both go back to screen names.

Now on to the calforum topic (again). I have said everything I can say about it. Go back and read my previous posts. I insulted your comprehension not because I had no other weapon, but because I had no other choice. I explained things to you three times, and you continue to bring up the same points. Are my posts registering on your computer? Could you please read them? I am getting rather tired of posting the same thing.

The UAL pilots were wrong to call FAL general practicioners. I thought that my admission that they were not perfect was adequate. I don't have the time to go over every mistake that every ALPA group ever made. There were many things UAL did wrong, and I will even grant you that they could have treated the FAL guys better (although they were far down the list of factors which conspired to harm the FAL pilots). Did you see that? It was an admission that I was wrong. Perhaps you should take notes. I stand by the fact, however, that the UAL guys have done more to help our profession than any pilot group in ALPA, and I thank them for it. You, on the other hand, seem content to tear them down.

Therein lies the difference between you and me. You harbor bitterness towards groups who, while imperfect, work towards improving our profession. I am bitter at no ALPA group. I am only bitter at a select few, spread over many airlines, who intentionally harmed our profession. You have stated to me that a Delta pilot would never ride your jumpseat. I would never make such a claim about the pilots of any airline. You lecture me about forgiving scabs, yet it was your post criticizing UAL about a 1986 action that started this whole thread. You verbally attack the UAL and DAL pilots. I (even on the other board) have never attacked a pilot group. I simply used cal as an example AFTER posters insulted me or my airline. You have a complex that I am stalking message boards, looking to bash CAL every chance I get. Don't flatter yourself. Frankly, it just ain't that important to me. Also, I respect the current CAL group and want to see them achieve great things in the upcoming contract. In fact, if you go through the archives on the calforum, the whole mess started after I asked an innocent financial question about cal in an attempt to educate myself (you might want to try it). Your comrades launched into a tirade against my ego and delta's finances. Once again, I RESPONDED to an attack by comparing some of the things CAL has gone through. Contrary to what you think,I harbor no ill will towards the CAL pilot group, and have always wished them the best. Unlike you towards my group, or UAL's it would seem.

By the way, you said "no where do I see you giving us any credit" for the strike. You see, this is why I question your comprehension. One of two things are happening...Either you aren't reading my posts, or you don't understand them. I could type more slowly, but I don't think that will do the trick! Try to pay attention to the following, because repeating myself has become very tiring. Very early in this conversation, I called your strike courageous. I even put "i mean that" in parentheses so you would know I wasn't being sarcastic. I feel that you fought the good fight against lorenzo, and would have maybe had a chance had the courts and scabs done so much to undermine your effort. That is why the EAL pilots had to honor the IAM picket line. lorenzo was going to do the same thing to them when their contract was up. It was a matter of not putting off until tomorrow what they could do today. They were better off presenting a unified front with the IAM than waiting and striking alone. Not inconsequential was the fact that lorenzo was transferring and selling assets so fast that a showdown was the only thing that would save the airline. Unfortunately, everyone lost, for many different reasons.