Additional UAL Pilot Furloughs today

[FlyDeltasJets]

Boeing,

They didn't "do" anything to Frontier. Frontier died because they were a distant third place in their Denver hub. People Express bought them and started a fare war with the #1 United and #2 Contintental. Not smart to start a fare war with someone with pockets as deep as UAL's or a company with scab wages and no debt from a recent bankruptcy (CAL).

Your assertion that the UAL pilot group harmed the frontier guys is simplistic (predictable from you). The United guys fought to bring the fronteir guys to parity with them to prevent management from operating a "b"-scale airline. UAL management would not agree (in fact, would not even begin negotiating until a only a month before the sale deadline. If you want to look for scapegoats, blame frontier management first, then Don Burr at People Express, then UAL management, then Lorenzo (because he ended up with everything, plus, he's an a$$hole). The UAL pilots were trying to protect their own jobs, and in the meantime, get raises for the frontier guys. Seems to me that is what a union should do.

You are happy that the "brain surgeons" are getting furloughed? I disagree very strongly with the hiring practices of UAL, but I have the utmost respect for their pilots. From the 1985 strike which fought b-scales to their insistance that management hire EAL pilots to their recent contract which raised the bar for all of us, UAL pilots have always been wonderful ALPA memders. I for one am proud to be in the same union with them, and (unlike you, it seems) hope that they ALL will be back in the cockpit very soon.

By the way, to which pilot group do you belong?

 

[Boeingman]

Boeing,

They didn't "do" anything to Frontier. Frontier died because they were a distant third place in their Denver hub. People Express bought them and started a fare war with the #1 United and #2 Contintental. Not smart to start a fare war with someone with pockets as deep as UAL's or a company with scab wages and no debt from a recent bankruptcy (CAL).

Your assertion that the UAL pilot group harmed the frontier guys is simplistic (predictable from you). The United guys fought to bring the fronteir guys to parity with them to prevent management from operating a "b"-scale airline. UAL management would not agree (in fact, would not even begin negotiating until a only a month before the sale deadline. If you want to look for scapegoats, blame frontier management first, then Don Burr at People Express, then UAL management, then Lorenzo (because he ended up with everything, plus, he's an a$$hole). The UAL pilots were trying to protect their own jobs, and in the meantime, get raises for the frontier guys. Seems to me that is what a union should do.

You are happy that the "brain surgeons" are getting furloughed? I disagree very strongly with the hiring practices of UAL, but I have the utmost respect for their pilots. From the 1985 strike which fought b-scales to their insistance that management hire EAL pilots to their recent contract which raised the bar for all of us, UAL pilots have always been wonderful ALPA memders. I for one am proud to be in the same union with them, and (unlike you, it seems) hope that they ALL will be back in the cockpit very soon.

By the way, to which pilot group do you belong?

FDJ:


Don't choke on that ALPA kool Aid about UAL & Frontier. The UAL MEC killed the deal prior to Burr or Lorenzo. In fact, they placed the FAL MEC in a poorer bargaining position for the PEX buyout.

There was hardly talk about a B scale, it was shot dead over seniority issues by the UAL MEC. They were doing far more than trying ot protect their jobs. they were trying to steal the flying and the airplanes. What were you doing in 1986 when this was taking place? Do you know why they have the nick name "brain surgeons"? ALPA Union unity. What a laugh for this one. Wonderfull ALPA members? talk to any ex FAL pilot and get their opinion.

My brother in law and sister lost their careers at FAL, I was very in tune with the process of the screwjob. Don't try and force your revisionist history on me son.

I'm curious. How many EAL pilots did Delta hire when they sucked some of their assets dry? should we talk about Pan Am?

You mention your admiration about the fight against the B scale. What about the pseudo "B" scale at Delta for the dead Express operation?Where is your respect for your own pilots to write that sham in the contract? Does that not matter since your an almighty Delta pilot? Ever wonder where the term DBA came from? You fit the mold.

You disagree with their hiring practices? So you disagree with the people hired? But you admire them? Wow what a dichotomy.

As much as I hate Lorenzo, he did give a group of unemployed pilots jobs. More than I can say for any other ALPA carrier or MEC out there in the fall of 86.

I'm not happy about anyone losing their jobs. I made an observation about the history of UAL. I think you have a reading comprehnsion problem and/or blinders on.

I belong to Continental. And before you say anything, I wear the battle star so watch your mouth.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

Holy crap!

I don't even know where to start. First of all, for a CAL pilot to criticize any other pilot group is beyond comprehension. Yes, mistakes have been made by every MEC. HOWEVER, there is not a pilot group in the world who has done more damage to the industry than CAL's. My God, you still have a scab on your MEC. I am sure that there are many good unionists at CAL, and I would never condemn the entire group, but really, if you feel like throwing stones you really don't have far to look.

Delta bought some assets from PAA. Were mistakes made by management in the process? Maybe. But we took the pilots with the assets we bought. That is far more than you can say about CAL and EAL. CAL mangement basically stole A-300's, computer reservation system, gates, etc. from EAL, and didn't take a single pilot with them until they sued many years later. And you say it was DAL who "sucked EAL's assets dry". EAL was liquidated before DAL bought anything from EAL, and fair market value was paid. CAL on the other hand stole EAL's assets while EAL was struggling for its very survival. Was that the CAL pilot's fault? No. But if the scabs hadn't broken your courageous (i mean that) strike, than perhaps lorenzo would have never been able to do what he did. As far as DAL and EAL, the DAL pilots, led by Hank Duffy, tried very hard to convince mgt. to hire EAL strikers. Management said "no". What would you have had them do?

As far as the frontier issue goes, "son", I would suggest you re-read your history books, or talk to your bro-in-law and sis again. You maintain that the UAL MEC killed the deal prior to Burr and Lorenzo. In fact, you go on to say that they put the FAL MEC in a bad position for the PEX buyout. You'll pardon me if I let the facts ruin your good story. In Sept of 1985, before any UAL offer, Frank lorenzo offered $20/share for FAL. Don Burr of People Exp. offered $24/share, and PEX bought FAL in late 1985. They started a disaterous fare war in Denver and lost their shirts. By june of 1986 Burr put FAL up for sale. Only then did UAL make an offer. It therefore would seem rather difficult to believe your notion that the UAL pilots hurt the FAL pilot's position at the PEX bargaining table, being that they were already owned by PEX when UAL made the offer!

Regarding your lorenzo comment..."HE GAVE UNEMPLOYED PILOTS JOBS"!!!????!!!!??? My God, what the hell are you talking about? He destroyed the jobs of 1000's of CAL and EAL pilots. He created legions of unemployed pilots. Did he buy FAL when they were in bk. Yes. Big friggin deal. Yours was one of the dumbest statements I have ever heard on this board, and that is certainly saying a lot.

One last thing. I agree that the Delta Express operation is a B scale. That's why i voted against it. However, our 737 captains on express will be maing $230/ hour at contract end. How much do your 777 captains make? Don't even talk to me about b-scale, your whole contract is a b-scale.

That being said, I really do wish you the best on your next contract. I hope you catch up to us. It would help us all.

By the way, I would be careful who you tell to "watch your mouth". I am quite confident that you wouldn't be able to do anything about it even if I didn't "watch my mouth." You needn't have worried, however. I always try to be respectful on these boards. I have yet to call anyone a "brain surgeon", express happiness over someone "getting a taste of their own medicine" in the form of a furlough, or call anyone a "DBA".

Good day.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

I just re-read my post, and wanted to make sure that I didn't give the wrong impression regarding the pilots at CAL. I know that most of their scabs are gone, and I know that of the pilots that are there now, the vast majority are fine people. I brought up the history of the CAL pilot group only to demonstrate to Boeingman that if he wanted to condemn a pilot group for past actions, the most logical and obvious place to start would be CAL.

I do wish the CAL pilots the best of luck in their upcoming contract negotiations.

 

[Boeingman]

Holy crap!

I don't even know where to start. First of all, for a CAL pilot to criticize any other pilot group is beyond comprehension. Yes, mistakes have been made by every MEC. HOWEVER, there is not a pilot group in the world who has done more damage to the industry than CAL's. My God, you still have a scab on your MEC. I am sure that there are many good unionists at CAL, and I would never condemn the entire group, but really, if you feel like throwing stones you really don't have far to look.

Delta bought some assets from PAA. Were mistakes made by management in the process? Maybe. But we took the pilots with the assets we bought. That is far more than you can say about CAL and EAL. CAL mangement basically stole A-300's, computer reservation system, gates, etc. from EAL, and didn't take a single pilot with them until they sued many years later. And you say it was DAL who "sucked EAL's assets dry". EAL was liquidated before DAL bought anything from EAL, and fair market value was paid. CAL on the other hand stole EAL's assets while EAL was struggling for its very survival. Was that the CAL pilot's fault? No. But if the scabs hadn't broken your courageous (i mean that) strike, than perhaps lorenzo would have never been able to do what he did. As far as DAL and EAL, the DAL pilots, led by Hank Duffy, tried very hard to convince mgt. to hire EAL strikers. Management said "no". What would you have had them do?

As far as the frontier issue goes, "son", I would suggest you re-read your history books, or talk to your bro-in-law and sis again. You maintain that the UAL MEC killed the deal prior to Burr and Lorenzo. In fact, you go on to say that they put the FAL MEC in a bad position for the PEX buyout. You'll pardon me if I let the facts ruin your good story. In Sept of 1985, before any UAL offer, Frank lorenzo offered $20/share for FAL. Don Burr of People Exp. offered $24/share, and PEX bought FAL in late 1985. They started a disaterous fare war in Denver and lost their shirts. By june of 1986 Burr put FAL up for sale. Only then did UAL make an offer. It therefore would seem rather difficult to believe your notion that the UAL pilots hurt the FAL pilot's position at the PEX bargaining table, being that they were already owned by PEX when UAL made the offer!

Regarding your lorenzo comment..."HE GAVE UNEMPLOYED PILOTS JOBS"!!!????!!!!??? My God, what the hell are you talking about? He destroyed the jobs of 1000's of CAL and EAL pilots. He created legions of unemployed pilots. Did he buy FAL when they were in bk. Yes. Big friggin deal. Yours was one of the dumbest statements I have ever heard on this board, and that is certainly saying a lot.

One last thing. I agree that the Delta Express operation is a B scale. That's why i voted against it. However, our 737 captains on express will be maing $230/ hour at contract end. How much do your 777 captains make? Don't even talk to me about b-scale, your whole contract is a b-scale.

That being said, I really do wish you the best on your next contract. I hope you catch up to us. It would help us all.

By the way, I would be careful who you tell to "watch your mouth". I am quite confident that you wouldn't be able to do anything about it even if I didn't "watch my mouth." You needn't have worried, however. I always try to be respectful on these boards. I have yet to call anyone a "brain surgeon", express happiness over someone "getting a taste of their own medicine" in the form of a furlough, or call anyone a "DBA".

Good day.

LMAO, I could take you sight unseen my friend.


I'm not going to even bother replying to your elitist attitude. You spin a good story but I have better things to do than debate with you.

On the CALFORUMS you were quite handily told to go take a hike by a few ex PAA pilots. I noticed you didnt bother replying to them as well. I could cut and paste those answers but why bother.

Just curious.....how much time do you spend in front of the mirror admiring yourself with your DAL uniform on? From your tone I'd bet it would be a lot.

 

[Boeingman]

I just re-read my post, and wanted to make sure that I didn't give the wrong impression regarding the pilots at CAL. I know that most of their scabs are gone, and I know that of the pilots that are there now, the vast majority are fine people. I brought up the history of the CAL pilot group only to demonstrate to Boeingman that if he wanted to condemn a pilot group for past actions, the most logical and obvious place to start would be CAL.

I do wish the CAL pilots the best of luck in their upcoming contract negotiations.

You know what really irritates me about guys like you? You were not even a part of the CAL strike yet you seem to gladly take shots even in this post.

You DAL guys have never been tested. God help you when/if you run into the type of problems we had, but until them keep your opinions to yourself.

There are 1242 scabs left on property and most of them I would think will honor a job action. I fly with some now and then and for me, living through it, the past is history. For you to not even be a part of the strike situation seems to be a emotional issue you need to confront and deal with.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

A. I am quite confident that you couldn't "take me". I will not, however, get into a pi$$ing war with you over who could "take" whom. All I posted was advice to know your enemy before you threaten him. I stand by that statement.

B. Saying that I didn't respond to them "as well" indicates that I don't respond to you. In fact, neither your statement nor your implication is correct. I responded time and time again on the CALForum boards. Only after repeating myself over and over again to people who did not care to respond to the facts I posted (much like your recent post) did I realize that I was going in circles. After I was compared to a terrorist hijacker, I said that I was through posting, and left. It didn't bother me much to leave, as I was getting a little sick of repeating myself. It was kind of like wrestling with a pig. You get dirty and the pig enjoys it.

I'll tell you the same thing I told your calforum buddies. If you want to debate using facts, I'm all for it. If you want to use insults and emotion, you won't get a response. I refuted your story with facts. You responded with insults. The last resort of a desperate man?

By the way, I was part of it all. I watched my father lose his job. It was very painful for my family. I think that gives me enough perspective to at least offer a comment. Ok with you?

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

yet you seem to gladly take shots even in this post.

The only reason that I even entered this post was to defend the UAL pilot group from an attack YOU made on their history. My first post said nothing about any other pilot group, just good things about UAL. You dragged CAL into the post by putting down, in order,

1. UAL Pilots

2. Delta Pilots.

I only mentioned CAL in the context of comparing them to the pilots of UAL and DAL. I will say again, I did this just to defend them from YOUR unprovoked attacks. If you don't want a response, don't submit the post. If you live in a glass house, don't throw the stone.

 

[Boeingman]

QUOTE]Originally posted by FlyDeltasJets
A. I am quite confident that you couldn't "take me". I will not, however, get into a pi$$ing war with you over who could "take" whom. All I posted was advice to know your enemy before you threaten him. I stand by that statement.

B. Saying that I didn't respond to them "as well" indicates that I don't respond to you. In fact, neither your statement nor your implication is correct. I responded time and time again on the CALForum boards. Only after repeating myself over and over again to people who did not care to respond to the facts I posted (much like your recent post) did I realize that I was going in circles. After I was compared to a terrorist hijacker, I said that I was through posting, and left. It didn't bother me much to leave, as I was getting a little sick of repeating myself. It was kind of like wrestling with a pig. You get dirty and the pig enjoys it.

I'll tell you the same thing I told your calforum buddies. If you want to debate using facts, I'm all for it. If you want to use insults and emotion, you won't get a response. I refuted your story with facts. You responded with insults. The last resort of a desperate man?

By the way, I was part of it all. I watched my father lose his job. It was very painful for my family. I think that gives me enough perspective to at least offer a comment. Ok with you? [/QUOTE]

A) You should know who you're talking back to that has the confidence to make such a statement in the first palce. Care to take it further?

B) You were a part of the CAL strike? Your full of sh!t. Besides a nickel and your sob story will get you a cup of coffee these days. The strike for me was the best thing that could of happened. It forced me to venture outside of aviation and I made a fortune during those years. So I don't really care to hear about your pain. You think you're the only family that had to go through trauma? You think mine didn't? You insult people without even knowing it
or trying to. You don't offer comments.

I surf those boards and I noticed you hightailed it when guys were questioning what some DAL guy (with a major attitude) was doing over there in the first place. After a scorching reply by a PAA pilot with some real personal facts you were never heard from again.

Your pig anaolgy is agood one with you, thats why I didn't bother to reply issue by issue.

You refute with a slanted story. You still left out the real issue why the deal fell through. Our ALPA brothers left the FAL pilots out in the wind. And like it or not, Lorenzo did give them jobs. Hey it hurts me to say it but who else offered unemployed pilots their seats back?

I'm still waiting for you to answer that question. Like you said when you can't you just insult was it?

 

[Boeingman]

The only reason that I even entered this post was to defend the UAL pilot group from an attack YOU made on their history. My first post said nothing about any other pilot group, just good things about UAL. You dragged CAL into the post by putting down, in order,

1. UAL Pilots

2. Delta Pilots.

I only mentioned CAL in the context of comparing them to the pilots of UAL and DAL. I will say again, I did this just to defend them from YOUR unprovoked attacks. If you don't want a response, don't submit the post. If you live in a glass house, don't throw the stone.

This is quite comical with you. The UAL pilot group c1986 time frame buried another ALPA pilot group. defend them all you want but it still does not change the fact. If they were such unionist the ex FAL guys would not be at CAL today but enjoying another possible BK after years of prosperity.

I seriously doubt you were even in the industry then. Besides, the UAL MEC characterized themselves as the "brains surgeons" not I. They regarded FAL as just "general practitioners". You want to defend that kind of arrogance so be it. But the more I read your posts it doesn't baffle me about your thinking.

As far as DAL pilots, I only know a few and my impressions from your writings they are all the same. In my old guard unit the only guy with an obnoxious ego (and he was a flaming a$$hole to boot) drove an F-4 in the ground killing a very good friend of mine.
I guess you remind me of him. Want to guess what airline he flew for?

I'll respond to you all night. I'm nursing a separated shoulder and this is quite fun. Care to guess how I did it? (hint.....something to do with that sight unseen business).

Incidently, I rather enjoy flying at CAL. I don't care about money (even though you enjoy flouting your pay scales) and my exposure to your flight crews on layovers has always left me with an impression that working at Delta is no fun at all.

If it makes you feel better to continually critique my pilot group
and MEC go ahead. BTW, does it not concern you about the background of the others on the AEC? Or are your blinders on again?