Additional UAL Pilot Furloughs today

[iflyhigh72]

Now Now fellas, You both make some good points. Lets leave it at that. No need for blood shed. However, if you guys wanted to put on some boxing gloves and get into a ring, I got the perfect place. Ding Ding!!

 

[TurboS7]

Wow guys that was great, read it all guys whether the facts are perfect I don't have time to research it but that exchange was better than a good movie. It just goes to show you how far reaching those MEC decisions are and how they effect the one thing that we really cherish, our families.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

Let me guess. You separated your shoulder fighting someone. Isn't the object to hurt the other guy?

This is a very tiring debate, because, you fail to listen to anything I say, forcing me to repeat myself over and over. Would it help you if I typed with capital letters?

#1. Please go back an re read your cal forums. I answered every post that anyone ever posted to me, up until the point that it got repetitive and someone insulted me. I then posted that I was sick of going in circles and being insulted, and told people that I was leaving the board. I do not know, nor do I care what was posted after I left. I cannot be expected to reply to something that I did not read. By the way, if it was a PAA guy, he was probably complaining that DAL management screwed him...That is not my fight. There is nothing I can do about the actions of Ron Allen, and I did not, nor would I, defend him.

#2. I never said I was a part of the cal strike. I said my father lost his job. I have mentioned in the past that he was with EAL. I neglected to mention it in this thread. I apologize for the confusion. I only mentioned it because you questioned my right to post. I feel that my family was a victim of lorenzo, and that gives me enough perspective to discuss issues of airline history. Not that I need any excuse to post here.

#3. If you read my post again (see a trend yet?) you will see that I agreed that lorenzo bought FAL. I also said "Big Deal". Buying a carrier does not excuse any of his sins. You seem to think it does.

#4. If you don't care about pay scales, why did you bring up Delta Express? I am not "flouting" (were you trying for "touting"?) my pay rates. Once again, I was responding to one of your posts putting our pilots down for an item in our contract. If you ask anyone on this board, I have always hoped for increased pay for EVERY pilot group.

#5. I do not know the full details of the UAL battle with their management over FAL. I wasn't there. I am fully willing to admit that. However, I do know a few things. One is that they just finished battling Dick Ferris through a long strike. Two is that management gave them a self-imposed deadline of August 31 to reach an agreement. Management did not even come to the table until July 25. On Aug 24, a full week before the end of the negotiations, FAL ceased operations. UAL then said the deal was off because FAL was no longer a "going concern". It seems as if there was enough blame to go around, yet you seem content to only blame the UAL pilots. I doubt it was only about seniority, as you assert. I imagine that the main focus was on combining the operation and contract, just like the AMR Reno sickout. However, I am sure that seniority did have something to do with it. However, in every seniority battle, there is fighting. If we buy anyone, I certainly expect my union to fight for my seniority. By the way, how exactly did the UAL guys screw the FAL guys in the PEX negotiations again?

#6. Even if, as you say, the UAL guys screwed the FAL guys, don't you think you should give them a break? You accuse me of not letting go of the CAL scab issue. Again I say, I did not bring that up. You attacked the UAL guys first. It appears that you have trouble forgetting and forgiving. You say that for you, "the past is history". Yet you attacked a pilot group that has done more to advance this profession than any group I can think of. It appears you cannot forgive the percieved indiscretions of the UAL guys, but you defend the scabs at every opportunity. Perhaps you should take your own advice. I am not hung up on your scab issue. I have never insulted your current pilot group. I simply pointed out that if you feel like insulting a pilot group based on their past, you don't have to even leave your yard.

#7. For the record, I love flying for Delta. I was with TWA and was apprehensive about leaving such a great bunch of guys when DAL called. I had heard all of the comments about what jerks the DAL guys were. I was very happy when I came over here and learned wrong the rumors were. Pilots are pilots. There are jerks at every airline, and good guys at every airline. I will not generalize about a group, unlike you. I do not "continuously attack your pilot group". I have always said that the CAL pilot group (absent the scabs) seem like a great bunch of guys. I have never heard such a statement from you. It seems like the only group you never attack are scabs.

#8. I am not even going to respond to your offer of violence. What are you, 12? You made an implied threat. I don't think that you have the ability to back that up. Those who know me would agree. But, like I said in an earlier post, I'm not going to get into a pi$$ing contest with you over this. It is below me. You told me to watch my mouth. I called you on it. If you feel like you can back up your words, then do it. But I am not going to set up a meeting to meet you at recess. I don't have the time, nor the inclination. It all seems just a bit childish to me.

 

[Jetstone]

My vote

The Delta guy has my vote for a TKO in this debate. Handsdown.

 

[DIAMONDDD]

Man, that was FUN.

 

[Jeff G]

Jeez, guys. I light one match and whoosh! Up in flames. It was kinda fun to watch, in a rubbernecking, morbid kind of way.

 

[Boeingman]

QUOTE]Originally posted by FlyDeltasJets
Let me guess. You separated your shoulder fighting someone. Isn't the object to hurt the other guy?

[/QUOTE]

Did it on the heavy bag. BTW, the object is to take someone down without hurting them.

I don't listen to you because your words are slanted. I've been in this business a hell of a long time. Your ideals and attitude are going to be a real let down for you someday. To bad your Father hasn't instilled some reality in you about what can happen in this industry.

#1.

They were also the actions of your MEC. You were being insulted because you carried your same pompous attitude over there that you do here. Thing is, there were more CAL guys jumping in pointing out what a jerk you sounded like. Then the PAA guy TB posted a beautiful reply regarding the true PAA story at Delta. Never saw you again after that. I guess you can persuade many of these regional and corporate guys just starting out rather than people like me over there who know what they are talking about.

BTW, are you trying to impress people about being a DAL pilot with your moniker?

Also, everyone ignored you after you left. Good advice.

#2.

My family was a victim as well. Who cares? Everybody has a sob story. My warning to you is to be careful what you say and to whom. The EAL IAM did more damage than any CAL scab did. Those POS A300 you're talking about came to CAL because EAL defaulted on the leases. Believe me we wanted NO part of any of EAL assets because we wanted NO part of any EAL pilots trying to get seniority at CAL. Which they did and failed.


#3.

Never said that. I did say that no ALPA MEC came to their aid or help. They were flat out unemployed, busted with no prospects.
Much to the ire of CAL pilots, they were given their seats. Tell me, where did Dad go after EAL folded? What ALPA carrier offered him a job, with seat protection?

I'm trying to point out a true irony in your blind ALPA thinking here. Or are you so bent on an event that you had no part of you're not willing to admit it? Frank's sins started long before FAL. But I will tell you again you have never been tested at DAL. When the sh!t hits the fan, you never know who will walk.

#4.

Because you critized our "B "scale contract when your own pilots created that mess when ALPA has fought for years to get rid of the B scale. But that's all right because as long as Delta does it that’s fine. Is that what you're saying?

You mention $230/HR at the "end" of your contract just negotiated, yet you compare ours which is at the end of a 5 year term. Incidentally, that ALPA carrier you left (TWA) comparing contracts, the CAL contract is ten fold better than the crap you guys had there. So what? Everybody has a better deal than someone else. You're so happy to shove it in people faces when in reality, guys like me don’t care.

I can guarantee you that your pilots will never see those pay rates in this post 9-11 environment. Besides, with Air Tran bleeding ATL traffic dry it is only a matter of time. Go ahead, crawl back under that rock and pretend nothing is deteriorating in this industry.

I am very concerned that 2002 is a make or break year. If things go like the analysts are saying, we can all kiss these lucrative contracts goodbye. Don't say it won't happen at DAL either. Remember you were the guys who said they would never furlough. The pendulum is swinging the other way and it's picking up speed.

#5.

By UAL stalling and leading the FAL guys by the short hairs their cash position dwindled rapidly to the point when PEX bought them they had no leverage. A quick and dirty scenario but it summed it up nicely.

It was ONLY about seniority. FAL had some very senior pilots and UAL MEC wanted no part of integration with those DEN pilots.

Funny you're leaving out the part of the UAL MEC PUBLICLY insulting their brother ALPA members. You keep complaining I am "insulting" UAL, but you also keep failing to mention who spoke those words in the first place.

OUR union doesn't have to fight for seniority. Remember the ALPA merger policy? It takes away the fight like TWA /OZARK, REP/NWA
DAL/PAA UAL/PAA etc. etc.

#6.

I made a statement of fact about UAL. It is an insult to you because it doesn't register with all that ALPA kool aid you're drinking that there are ALPA carriers (yours included) that have truly destroyed pilot’s careers.

I defend the CAL pilot’s period. The scabs are here to stay. I don't care about them, neither should you? Why don't you concentrate on your own issues at DAL? I am proud of my pilot group. We have been through thick and thin and some very tough times. We are coming together for C02 and I feel we will achieve something on a scale better than before. Like we did better than several ALPA carriers in 97, again one of which was your old airline.

Another thing. UAL gave many of the CAL strikers "courtesy" interviews. Few were hired. Am I bitter? In retrospect it was the best thing to ever happen to me.

#7.

That's because I don’t care about the scabs. What still irritates me is the way some of you/our ALPA pilots are so blind to the industry. Having lived through an ALPA disaster, I get pretty angry seeing blind allegiance to them when they have royally screwed people over. You take it a step further by spin doctoring some true colossal screwups and make it sound like it is not an issue. Having lived through them, it is.

Absent the scabs? There you go again. You'd think I would be the one with heartburn over this issue having lived through it. Your continued comments about my pilots, scabs or not, is an insult.
You just sound like an immature little fool with your continued issues. You sound like a bigger idiot to those of us at CAL having:

A) Not even been on property before during or after the 83 strike.

B) have your own problems to worry about at Delta

I invite you in to our crew rooms at anytime to start one of your speeches. You will probably find a very unwelcome reception.

#8.

But you were the one that initially responded. I took you up on your veiled threat Do you type so much horsesh!t you can't even remember what you've written? The first mistake to not think.

Let me help you see through the fog:

I said "Watch your mouth" about my being a CAL pilot since you're initially inclined to think we're all scabs I was warning you that I would not take to kindly being a full term striker to listen to some little Delta putz make an assumption. You being the perfect example.

You replied:

By the way, I would be careful who you tell to "watch your mouth". I am quite confident that you wouldn't be able to do anything about it.

That sounds like a direct challenge to me sonny. Who called who now?

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

Son,

You have a serious comprehension problem that is equaled only by your tenuous grasp of the facts. For the THIRD time, PEX already owned FAL when UAL made the offer. Is that so difficult to understand? I laid out a timeline, even included specific dates, yet you still insist that UAL damaged the FAL pilots bargaining power with PEX. Let me say it for you again clearly. There is no way that the UAL pilots harmed the FAL pilots in their neg. with PEX because PEX bought fronteir BEFORE UAL made the offer. UAL was attempting to buy FAL from PEX. Got it yet?

Also for the THIRD time, I left your board before this manifesto you were touting (see, that's how you use it) appeared. Therefore, it did not chase me off the boards. You have a little bit of trouble with chronology, don't you?

Again, I brought up money and criticized your contract AFTER you insulted the Delta Express section of our contract. Wow, this is difficult. Is English your first language? May I suggest you invest in a reading comprehension course?

As to the rest of your comments, I will sum up a response in one paragraph. Contrary to what you think, I do not consider ALPA perfect. They have screwed up many many time, including during the EAL debacle. If you read my other posts on this board, you will find that most of my posts are about improving our union and profession. You, however, felt compelled to tear the UAL pilot group down. I defended them. I did not attack CAL, I offered them in contrast to what you accused UAL and DAL of. Have I forgiven the scabs? No, and I never will. You expressed concern about the direction in which our profession is heading. I too am concerned. The only weapon we have in protecting our profession is our unity. The only way we can maintain our unity is by exacting a price from those who betray us. Forgiving them helps no one and harms all of us. I believe ALPA chose money over principle when they allowed the scabs back in. However, that is not the issue I intended to debate tonight. All I wanted to say, before you brought the entire history of ALPA into the discussion, was that UAL has been an exemplary ALPA group (not perfect) who has improved our profession. Instead of sounding gleeful that they "get a taste of their own medicine", I attempted to thank them for their contributions and wish them the best. I hope all of them are back in the cockpit very soon.

 

[Boeingman]

Son,

You have a serious comprehension problem that is equaled only by your tenuous grasp of the facts. For the THIRD time, PEX already owned FAL when UAL made the offer. Is that so difficult to understand? I laid out a timeline, even included specific dates, yet you still insist that UAL damaged the FAL pilots bargaining power with PEX. Let me say it for you again clearly. There is no way that the UAL pilots harmed the FAL pilots in their neg. with PEX because PEX bought fronteir BEFORE UAL made the offer. UAL was attempting to buy FAL from PEX. Got it yet?

Also for the THIRD time, I left your board before this manifesto you were touting (see, that's how you use it) appeared. Therefore, it did not chase me off the boards. You have a little bit of trouble with chronology, don't you?

Again, I brought up money and criticized your contract AFTER you insulted the Delta Express section of our contract. Wow, this is difficult. Is English your first language? May I suggest you invest in a reading comprehension course?

As to the rest of your comments, I will sum up a response in one paragraph. Contrary to what you think, I do not consider ALPA perfect. They have screwed up many many time, including during the EAL debacle. If you read my other posts on this board, you will find that most of my posts are about improving our union and profession. You, however, felt compelled to tear the UAL pilot group down. I defended them. I did not attack CAL, I offered them in contrast to what you accused UAL and DAL of. Have I forgiven the scabs? No, and I never will. You expressed concern about the direction in which our profession is heading. I too am concerned. The only weapon we have in protecting our profession is our unity. The only way we can maintain our unity is by exacting a price from those who betray us. Forgiving them helps no one and harms all of us. I believe ALPA chose money over principle when they allowed the scabs back in. However, that is not the issue I intended to debate tonight. All I wanted to say, before you brought the entire history of ALPA into the discussion, was that UAL has been an exemplary ALPA group (not perfect) who has improved our profession. Instead of sounding gleeful that they "get a taste of their own medicine", I attempted to thank them for their contributions and wish them the best. I hope all of them are back in the cockpit very soon.

Son? Addressed to me? That would make you about 75 or 80. But it would explain your senility with many issues. Also you're down to insulting me my about my comprehension? What an original guy. Weren't you the one who said when you run out of substance you start insulting? What's the matter Mr. perfect? Am I getting to you?

UAL made several runs at FAL, they wanted that DEN hub so bad it drove Ferris nuts. Get your facts straight then come back and we'll talk. Bottom line, they screwed their ALPA brothers. Before, after, up, down, the end result was still the same.

Im still waiting for your response to the antics of these exemplary pilots calling their brothers "general practioners" as the UAL pilots are" brain surgeons" and "we want no part of them". LOL exemplary my a$$.


The EAL pilot's were fools to walk. They should of listened to Bavis (sp) instead of the radical element. But all is not well in airline land, the IAM is about to do another carrier in and ALPA will follow them right down the toilet.


I have no problem with chronology. In fact, your inane posts are still over there for all to see. It was actually funny seeing how they transpired and poof!!!!!!!!, you were gone. I stand by my previous post that you were way out of your league over there, and deep down, you know it.

Money over principle? Doubtful. Time to get everyone on board. I'd rather have the 1242 scabs on my side and keep them a part of our union to disable any ideas management may have.

Your shortsighted emotional agenda does nothing to help anybody in the long run. Extracting a price? Many of those same scabs were former ALPA members crossing because THEY felt betrayed. Does it ever occur to you that many of the scabs were an ALPA by product?

ALPA also lost the battle with Lorenzo long before when they did not do a SOS with NYA. Are you going to try and debate that with me as well? Ask your Dad why the EAL guys shot that idea down.

I also don't think any of the scabs tonight are losing any sleep because some Delta putz isn't forgiving them.

UAL an exemplary group? No way. FAL still burns through my family. Additionally, your exemplary pilots learned alot from the hardships and mistakes we suffered through in 83. But no where do I see you giving us any credit. Why is that?

Gleefull? Boy you sure like reading between the lines. Sad part of it is, none of the people leaving today had anything to do with the FAL debacle.

As far as the DAL Express, I get tired of listening about you complaining about scab wages when in fact., CAL pay is higher than several ALPA carriers. DAL Express's B scale is nothing more than a scab wage in my mind. And you DAL boys bit hook line and sinker. Now there is true unity for the profession as a whole.

BTW, are you the CVG sec/treas?

P.S. look up flout in the dictionary. you may even learn something tonight. You say tout, I said flout. Going to argue with Webster's now as well?

But in case you're to lazy:

Flout n: insult, mockery

1: scorn 2: to indulge in scornful behavior: mock

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

Wow, you are worse off than I thought.

Flout and tout are antonyms. They are completely opposite one another. Flout is to mock, tout is to praise or laud. You said I was flouting our payrates. Your quote was "you enjoy flouting your pay scales" You were wrong, just as you have been all night. You took the time to look up the word (I didn't have to, by the way) and you still got it wrong. Holy cow! This is too easy!

Sometimes, when people are wrong, they admit it and learn from the experience. You, on the other hand, prefer to change your story (PEX) or...or...well, I don't know what the hell you were trying to do with the tout thing. You were wrong and used a dictionary to prove it! What was that, the Jedi mind trick?

By the way, as long as you have the dictionary out, look up sarcasm. That's what I was using when I called you "son". Once again, as has become a theme in this conversation, I was responding to you. I believe you called me "son" first. I'm not your son (thank God), so perhaps we could both go back to screen names.

Now on to the calforum topic (again). I have said everything I can say about it. Go back and read my previous posts. I insulted your comprehension not because I had no other weapon, but because I had no other choice. I explained things to you three times, and you continue to bring up the same points. Are my posts registering on your computer? Could you please read them? I am getting rather tired of posting the same thing.

The UAL pilots were wrong to call FAL general practicioners. I thought that my admission that they were not perfect was adequate. I don't have the time to go over every mistake that every ALPA group ever made. There were many things UAL did wrong, and I will even grant you that they could have treated the FAL guys better (although they were far down the list of factors which conspired to harm the FAL pilots). Did you see that? It was an admission that I was wrong. Perhaps you should take notes. I stand by the fact, however, that the UAL guys have done more to help our profession than any pilot group in ALPA, and I thank them for it. You, on the other hand, seem content to tear them down.

Therein lies the difference between you and me. You harbor bitterness towards groups who, while imperfect, work towards improving our profession. I am bitter at no ALPA group. I am only bitter at a select few, spread over many airlines, who intentionally harmed our profession. You have stated to me that a Delta pilot would never ride your jumpseat. I would never make such a claim about the pilots of any airline. You lecture me about forgiving scabs, yet it was your post criticizing UAL about a 1986 action that started this whole thread. You verbally attack the UAL and DAL pilots. I (even on the other board) have never attacked a pilot group. I simply used cal as an example AFTER posters insulted me or my airline. You have a complex that I am stalking message boards, looking to bash CAL every chance I get. Don't flatter yourself. Frankly, it just ain't that important to me. Also, I respect the current CAL group and want to see them achieve great things in the upcoming contract. In fact, if you go through the archives on the calforum, the whole mess started after I asked an innocent financial question about cal in an attempt to educate myself (you might want to try it). Your comrades launched into a tirade against my ego and delta's finances. Once again, I RESPONDED to an attack by comparing some of the things CAL has gone through. Contrary to what you think,I harbor no ill will towards the CAL pilot group, and have always wished them the best. Unlike you towards my group, or UAL's it would seem.

By the way, you said "no where do I see you giving us any credit" for the strike. You see, this is why I question your comprehension. One of two things are happening...Either you aren't reading my posts, or you don't understand them. I could type more slowly, but I don't think that will do the trick! Try to pay attention to the following, because repeating myself has become very tiring. Very early in this conversation, I called your strike courageous. I even put "i mean that" in parentheses so you would know I wasn't being sarcastic. I feel that you fought the good fight against lorenzo, and would have maybe had a chance had the courts and scabs done so much to undermine your effort. That is why the EAL pilots had to honor the IAM picket line. lorenzo was going to do the same thing to them when their contract was up. It was a matter of not putting off until tomorrow what they could do today. They were better off presenting a unified front with the IAM than waiting and striking alone. Not inconsequential was the fact that lorenzo was transferring and selling assets so fast that a showdown was the only thing that would save the airline. Unfortunately, everyone lost, for many different reasons.

 

[James007]

MEOW

 

[Boeingman]

FDJ:

You were mocking our payscale at CAL. ie. flout. So again you just proved me right again. Thank you. I only had the dictionary out to help your reply and interpretation.

PEX? Never changed, at least you finally admit that the UAL MEC acted childish in their manner of ditching of FAL. But somehow (like your speech is slurred) you are trying to spin the PEX/FAL into the tout issue. I don't know where your going with this. Don't drink and type.

Bitterness? I just think it is ironic how things change over the years. That glass house analogy you know. Maybe when you get some time under your belt you'll see what I'm talking about by looking back and seeing changes.

By god, I am even getting a compliment on our strike.

I never lecture you on forgiving scabs. I'm lecturing you on the absurdity of your comments towards pilots that don't fly for you. You seem to think everyone has to follow your agenda. I do not agree that it is in the best interest to alienate pilots that can undermine efforts at CAL or even DAL. Ever think of that? Keep pissing people off and they will try and screw ALPA again.

ALPA dropped the ball big time with the CAL strike. Opinions, rehotric on why so many former ALPA members crossed in 83?
I was told that over 65% of the scabs at CAL were former ALPA members. What is that telling you? What can we learn from that? To keep pissing people off? I prefer to educate and realign minds. So far on our property it's working fairly well. Your idea of extracting punishment is, well stupid. How do you punish people when ALPA was knocking at CAL's door?

Delta has never been tested. Again you ignore that, but I'll keep repeating it. Perhaps in a few years things may change. I see an entire army of highly trained RJ pilots getting shafted by ALPA in one way or another.

You know why no DAL guys will ever ride my JS? A few years ago I tried getting out of ATL (in uniform) and one of your DBA Captain's going to EWR took one look at my uniform and said "No scabs on my airplane". As I tried to explain my personal situation his back ass reply was "well you still fly for a scab airline" and walked away. Guess his blinders didn't see the ALPA pin. Perhaps my jaw dropping to the floor covered it?

I picture you the same way someday. Shoot your mouth off first, insert foot later. Hence my policy about DAL on my airplanes. You see, It works both ways about denials.

My kids aren't arrogant and you wouldn't last in this house with your attitude. Your household sure sounds bitter to me. I made the most of my time away from CAL. My kids could care less about the entire strike issue. I sheilded them from the grief and agony of 1983. The families I see that intertwined their children was in my opinion abusive.

Obviously, it has affected you to the point of anger over something that you are no part of. I know you like to tow the party line and sob story routine, but the EAL situation is a far cry from the CAL strike. Don't insult me any longer any try to call them the same.

Speaking of screen names, you never did answer my question of your moniker. Trying to impress the newer guys here you're an all mighty god fearing Delta Airlines Pilot? Maybe some little starry eyed girl CFI will want to e-mail you. Trolling for a internet relationship there FDJ? (see note on sarcasim).


I was going to post the entire thread you started on CF, but I don't know if that is kosher or legal copying those without consent. I invite all on here to go over there, look up your thread and let people see for themselves the a$$ you made of yourself as well as the scorching replies made by ex PAA guys who just don't see that same down home friendly airline called Delta.
You are totally blind to your own attitude that you just don't see it. I pity you.

Your initial post was not an innocent little question. It was a sarcastic barb which has the overall tone of an arrogant child.
The idea of CAL possibly buying Delta really doesn't set to well with you and you responded in kind. Why do you think people were all over you? I know, it is never your fault, you're a Delta pilot.

EAL, hey your own back yard. It was stupid to walk given Franks history. If no one left the cockpit they could of fought from the inside. Our guys tried telling the EAL MEC but they did not want to listen. Chalk up another kill for the IAM. They were totally out of control and I firmly believe the end result for EAL would of been the same even without Frank.

You didn't answer my final question. So am I to assume you are the CVG sec/treas?

 

[Zarathustra]

A Lorenzo fan?

A SCAB is a SCAB FOREVER. Do not be fooled by whomever this CAL ja may be, your actions will NOT be forgotten by rEAL pilots.

(Who have constantly been given preferential hiring since the SCABs have slowly been flushed out of UAL flight ops. with 6 billion of ESOP money)

Insinuations regarding seniority integrations are laughable. Ask your PAA lads the sweetheart deal they landed when they came with the Pacific routes over to UAL.

Boeingman, I do not envy your self-hatred, though I must admit that there is a part within me that would like to experience the insouciant calm that comes with such moronic imbecility.

FlyDeltaJets, I love that big neon sign and hope they keep it up in Hotlanta forever. A big thanks to you guys for staying united when Leo tried to pit all the employee groups against your pilot group and "park" the triple sevens.

Long live the Delta Dot!

 

[Boeingman]

A Lorenzo fan?

A SCAB is a SCAB FOREVER. Do not be fooled by whomever this CAL ja may be, your actions will NOT be forgotten by rEAL pilots.

(Who have constantly been given preferential hiring since the SCABs have slowly been flushed out of UAL flight ops. with 6 billion of ESOP money)

Insinuations regarding seniority integrations are laughable. Ask your PAA lads the sweetheart deal they landed when they came with the Pacific routes over to UAL.

Boeingman, I do not envy your self-hatred, though I must admit that there is a part within me that would like to experience the insouciant calm that comes with such moronic imbecility.

FlyDeltaJets, I love that big neon sign and hope they keep it up in Hotlanta forever. A big thanks to you guys for staying united when Leo tried to pit all the employee groups against your pilot group and "park" the triple sevens.

Long live the Delta Dot!

Hey douchebag. I am a full term CAL striker. You got a lot of nerve calling me a Lorenzo fan.

That calm comes from not giving a sh!t any longer because I don't have to. Morally or financially. You jealous of that? Self hatred? My life right now is perfect. From your rambling disjointed post I have to wonder what your psychosis is.

You work for UAL. Good luck, you're going to need every bit of it.

 

[TurboS7]

In the end a job is just a job and we are all just pawns in the big picture. There are a lot more important things in life to worry about. I'll stick with the CAL group I have always found them to be a great bunch of guys. If the world were like them it would be a better place. The CAL pilot group has learned to accept each other's diffrence's and carry on. I agree with Boeingman Delta has had it made and their day is coming. Time will tell, but strife builds character, and character an airline.

 

[EAP]

WTFO?

Boeingman and TurboS7, I see the glee in your posts about the troubles UAL has on their plate. Remember, the people getting hosed on layoffs are NOT the ones you picture in your head as the hated United guys of old, screwing FAL and other's that didn't fit their personal agenda. And, yes, I agree with you, FAL got hosed. I was in high school at the time and mourned the loss myself, believe me. The only guys feeling the pain are the poor bastards in thier 1st through 2nd year at this place (like me) and I can assure you anyone with more than a few years under their belt at UAL doesn't even know about this website. I've paid my dues, this is my second "major" and I've been through more indocs that my family or I care to remember.

You aren't going to solve problems or be victorious by saying "keep positive, where there's smoke there's fire" and starting your own glee club, cheering on at the fall of a company like the taliban watching CNN on 9/11. Your UAL boys who implemented a lot of your hard times are in CEO and VP heaven, playing golf somewhere at a club. The hated SOB UAL pilots that added to your hardshiup are on a retirement boat somewhere in the South Pacific. Me, I'm right here taking the brunt of your crap, out of work, looking for a job - and I never did anything to you in the first place.

The post is titled additional UAL pilot furloughs today, and it has turned into a hatred spewing contest. The majority of us, if CAL would have hired us first, would have probably been your friends flying trips with you. Instead, we meet you as gools spitting in our faces as we walk through a tough time. I'm holding my head high, and mabey, just mabey, I can avoid becoming a bitter old SOB some day and see people for who they are and not who they work for in an otherwise hard knock profession.

 

[TurboS7]

Easy there friend. I am from Chicago, do you know what that means. I have more UAL pilots that are friends and ex-UAL retired friends than you can imagine. I went out to coffee with all of them as they shared thier struggles as they knew the strike of '85 was coming. They shared their views and I shared mine. In the end they didn't go to work and the strike was settled in two weeks, Ferris gave in. I have a lot of respect for my UAL friends, I was just saying that I personally fit in better with the CAL guys vs. the United guys.I have many friends with both airlines. If UAL is in trouble it is a fact, it has nothing to do with anything personal. We live in troubled times all you guys have to realize that, if our President gave any indication last night the worse is a head of us. He all but declared war on Iraq, Iran, and N. Korea last night. Hang on as the ride is about to get a lot rougher.

 

[Boeingman]

QUOTE]Originally posted by EAP
WTFO?

Boeingman and TurboS7, I see the glee in your posts about the troubles UAL has on their plate. Remember, the people getting hosed on layoffs are NOT the ones you picture in your head as the hated United guys of old, screwing FAL and other's that didn't fit their personal agenda. And, yes, I agree with you, FAL got hosed. I was in high [/QUOTE]

EAP:

Thank you for the reasoned reply.

I did say somewhere basically the same thing you said about the new guys taking the brunt of the pain. I know it was lost in the massive amount of flames firing back and forth. But you are correct and I will reiterate.

Zara is in my mind the typical "Brain Surgeon" who doesn't even know who he is talking to (besides his lame attempt making a comprehensible post). I couldn't make heads or tails out of his ramblings. Perhaps when he lays off the water bong and comes back we can find out what his problem is.

For guys like you, (and even blowhards like Zara), I really do wish you the best of luck. The last thing this industry needs is for UAL or anyone else to enter chap. 11.

 

[Boeingman]

Turbo

I know we haven't seen eye to eye on some issues, but I appreciate the reply.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

You wrote, and I quote, (again!!!!) that I was "flouting" the Delta pay scales. Why would I insult my own pay scale? You used the word wrong. I called you on it. I didn't make a big deal of it, just a little joke. Yet you took it and ran with it. You were wrong. Admit it. You got mad because you felt (wrongly) that I was bragging about our pay. You tried to put me down for it. You used the word flout. Then you got your trusty dictionary out and said "you say tout, I say flout" indicating that they were the same thing. They are not. They are complete opposites. If you can't even admit that, then I don't know why I am bothering.

On the PEX, you did change. You insisted over and over again that the UAL guys hurt the FAL guy's bargaining power when PEX bought them. When I explained to you that your statement was impossible because PEX bought FAL before UAL ever made an offer (even supplying dates), and in fact UAL made an offer TO PEX to buy FAL, you changed your story to say that UAL made several offers for FAL. Not true. There was some discussion of a buy and leaseback plan with UAL, but that was only in the content of an ESOP at FAL. I believe your quote was "by UAL leading them around by the shorthairs until their cash position dwindled and they had no leverage when PEX bought them" You also said the "the ual offer came BEFORE burr and lorenzo. Once again, you were wrong. Admit it. For someone who brags so much about having been in the industry so long, you weren't paying much attention, were you?

By the way, as I already wrote, I complimented you on your strike way back in our second post. Yet you say you "finally" get a compliment on your strike. Is your victim complex that large that it affects your memory? I wrote, and will write again, that you guys were courageous. lorenzo, the courts, the politicions, and mostly the scabs beat you. I wish they hadn't. So does they rest of the industry. I feel for what you went through. You know as well as I do that if the scabs hadn't taken your job, you might have had a chance. Unlike you, I don't care why they crossed. I will not offer opinions on the mindset of a scab. Maybe ALPA screwed them. So what. They did not hurt ALPA, they hurt you. They stole the job that you earned. Don't give them an excuse. ALPA has wronged many people. We should address that. But not in the concept of excusing scabs.

By the way, I was 17 and interested in aviation during the EAL strike. I didn't need my father to explain it to me. I could read at the time (you should learn. It's helpful). My sisters knew nothing about the strike, because my father wasn't "abusive" and intertwine them in it. I, however, was very interested, almost an adult, and knowledgeable. I convinced my father to let me volunteer with him at the strike headquarters, and I learned a lot. Not because my father made me, but because i wanted to.

Your method is to placate scabs, mine is to ostracize them. I think my method is more in line with the attitude of most ALPA members. I think it is working. How many crossed during the NWA or CMR strike? Now don't get me wrong. I know that we must not alienate our members. If people have concerns, they should be addressed. Before any strike. But once they cross a line, there should be no forgiving. I certainly don't think they should be MEC members!

My screen name is copied from a neon sign in Atlanta. I like the sign and am proud of my airline. If I had used "I Fly Delta Jets" then perhaps you would have a point. Is "boeingman" an attempt to impress people? Oooohh, so you realllly fly boeings? See, it works both ways. By the way, I have a beautiful new bride and am happily married, so no, I am not using the internet to pick up chicks.

About my flyforums posts. #!. I asked, and I quote, "Where is CAL getting the cash to buy anything? I think they are more likely a buyee than a buyer." I felt then, and now, that your cash position and higly leveraged balance sheet would prevent you from buying anyone right now. Perhaps I am wrong. That's why I asked. You people came back and called me a DBA, etc. The insults came from your end first. I responded to them. Then tried to steer the conversation back towards civility. I even apologized for a line I used that upset people. I answered every post in a civilized and intelligent manner, and no one seemed to offer me the same courtesy. When I was called a "suicide terrorist" I announced i was leaving. And did. The fact that I stopped reading the thread did prevent me from responding to anything that followed my departure. Funny how that works, isn't it? That whole chronology thing really confuses you, doesn't it. Since we started this inane conversation I went back and re-read the wonderful post that you claimed I was scared of. Big deal. He wrote that DAL hired bad lawyers and did unethical things during the PAA deal. So what. That was Ron Allen. You will NEVER hear me defend him! What the hell did that have to do with the original conversation? I never said DAL was perfect, least of all the management. That was the big scary post that you claim scared me away because I was overmatched? Please. It is very rare that I am overmatched in a debate. I think this thread proves that! Thanks for your help, by the way.

Back to your jumpseat story. Am I a captain? No. Never claimed I was, and you probably knew I wasn't due to my age. Yet you seem to think that the actions of one A$$hole that denied you the jumpseat can be attributed to our entire pilot group. You accuse me of insulting the CAL pilots. In fact, I have never done that. I am polite and kind to every CAL pilot I see wearing an ALPA pin. They are ALWAYS welcome on our airplanes, and every captain I have ever flown with agrees. We have had many a cal pilot in our jumpseat, and they have all been gentleman. My words and actions refute your assertion that I insult the CAL pilots. I do insult the scabs, but ALWAYS go out of my way, like I have during this post, to compliment the rest of the CAL pilots. You, on the other hand, do exactly what you accuse me of doing. You have held the actions of one a$$hole against the entire group. You will not allow a DAL pilot a jumpseat (your words, not mine) because of one guy's action. You get offended when, in response to an insult, i pointed out the history of 1200 of the CAL pilots, yet you play jumpseat politics based on one guy? Wasn't our a$$hole doing exactly what you are? Yet you feel justified. Interesting.

Regarding the EAL strike. I agree that the IAM was out of control when Borman was Chairman. After lorenzo took over, however, they didn't have a chance to be out of control. lorenzo wanted them to strike. he was after the NMB at every opportunity to declare an impass. They would not for months, because he wouldn't even negotiate. He wanted to impose a contract and hire scabs, exactly like what happened at CAL. Meanwhile, he was stealing all of EAL's assets and transferring them. He was going to do the same thing to the pilots when their contract came up. He had done it at every airline he ever ran, and the pilots knew it. "Faught from the inside" with lorenzo? Are you kidding me? The pilots had two choices. Fight alongside the IAM, or fight alone later. There can be no doubt that lorenzo would try to bust their union when the contract was up. I don't see how the pilots had a choice. There had to be a strike, it was only a matter of when.

No, I'm not based in CVG.

You have a MASSIVE inferiority complex regarding Delta Air Lines. i can't count the amount of times you and your message board cronies accused me of having a big ego just because I work for Delta. Is Delta that good? I never said that, so you must infer it. You call me arrogant, and even ask if I am trying to impress people by putting the word "delta" in my screen name. You seem to have issues with Delta. Not sure why.

You mention that Delta has never been tested. You are correct that throughout Delta's history, the pilots have always been treated very well. That all changed with Ron Allen, and I am proud of the way DALPA has performed since then. They have paid 100% of the medical benefits through 2 furloughs, they stuck together during the 777 negotiations, even after Leo cancelled some orders. In doing so, the "Delta Dot" was created, which led the way to UAL's historic contract (no prob zara!). They stuck together during the c2k negotiations, even after management sued some of our members, and achieved the highest paying contract in the history of US aviation. Have we been tested with a strike? Not yet, but speaking as a strikecenter volunteer, we were ready. We have been tested. And we have responded. No need to thank us for establishing a payrate you can use in your bargaining. No need to thank us for the help the DALPA negotiating team has already given to your negotiating team. There is no need to thank us, but it would be nice.


In your haste to defend a group of scabs, you have managed to insult, alienate, and deny jumpseats to entire pilot groups, most of whose members you have never met. For some reason, the scabs sins have become forgivable, but the rest of ALPA's sins are not. I find it curious.

I have never insulted an entire pilot group intentionally, and when I did it inadvertantly, I apologized. You, on the other hand, insult the DAL and UAL pilots with every post. You are trying to play the victim, but people see through it. I have no doubt that you will come back, but I think perhaps before you type, a little self-study might be in order. You insulted entire ALPA groups, I insulted scabs while praising the rest of the pilots of the airline. Perhaps we were both wrong. If so, I think your's was the much greater sin. I am quite certain you'll disagree.