Jeff G said:UAL pilots don't have the best reputation for dealing with other pilot groups, you know.
They didn't "do" anything to Frontier. Frontier died because they were a distant third place in their Denver hub. People Express bought them and started a fare war with the #1 United and #2 Contintental. Not smart to start a fare war with someone with pockets as deep as UAL's or a company with scab wages and no debt from a recent bankruptcy (CAL).
Your assertion that the UAL pilot group harmed the frontier guys is simplistic (predictable from you). The United guys fought to bring the fronteir guys to parity with them to prevent management from operating a "b"-scale airline. UAL management would not agree (in fact, would not even begin negotiating until a only a month before the sale deadline. If you want to look for scapegoats, blame frontier management first, then Don Burr at People Express, then UAL management, then Lorenzo (because he ended up with everything, plus, he's an a$$hole). The UAL pilots were trying to protect their own jobs, and in the meantime, get raises for the frontier guys. Seems to me that is what a union should do.
You are happy that the "brain surgeons" are getting furloughed? I disagree very strongly with the hiring practices of UAL, but I have the utmost respect for their pilots. From the 1985 strike which fought b-scales to their insistance that management hire EAL pilots to their recent contract which raised the bar for all of us, UAL pilots have always been wonderful ALPA memders. I for one am proud to be in the same union with them, and (unlike you, it seems) hope that they ALL will be back in the cockpit very soon.
By the way, to which pilot group do you belong?
FlyDeltasJets said:Holy crap!
I don't even know where to start. First of all, for a CAL pilot to criticize any other pilot group is beyond comprehension. Yes, mistakes have been made by every MEC. HOWEVER, there is not a pilot group in the world who has done more damage to the industry than CAL's. My God, you still have a scab on your MEC. I am sure that there are many good unionists at CAL, and I would never condemn the entire group, but really, if you feel like throwing stones you really don't have far to look.
Delta bought some assets from PAA. Were mistakes made by management in the process? Maybe. But we took the pilots with the assets we bought. That is far more than you can say about CAL and EAL. CAL mangement basically stole A-300's, computer reservation system, gates, etc. from EAL, and didn't take a single pilot with them until they sued many years later. And you say it was DAL who "sucked EAL's assets dry". EAL was liquidated before DAL bought anything from EAL, and fair market value was paid. CAL on the other hand stole EAL's assets while EAL was struggling for its very survival. Was that the CAL pilot's fault? No. But if the scabs hadn't broken your courageous (i mean that) strike, than perhaps lorenzo would have never been able to do what he did. As far as DAL and EAL, the DAL pilots, led by Hank Duffy, tried very hard to convince mgt. to hire EAL strikers. Management said "no". What would you have had them do?
As far as the frontier issue goes, "son", I would suggest you re-read your history books, or talk to your bro-in-law and sis again. You maintain that the UAL MEC killed the deal prior to Burr and Lorenzo. In fact, you go on to say that they put the FAL MEC in a bad position for the PEX buyout. You'll pardon me if I let the facts ruin your good story. In Sept of 1985, before any UAL offer, Frank lorenzo offered $20/share for FAL. Don Burr of People Exp. offered $24/share, and PEX bought FAL in late 1985. They started a disaterous fare war in Denver and lost their shirts. By june of 1986 Burr put FAL up for sale. Only then did UAL make an offer. It therefore would seem rather difficult to believe your notion that the UAL pilots hurt the FAL pilot's position at the PEX bargaining table, being that they were already owned by PEX when UAL made the offer!
Regarding your lorenzo comment..."HE GAVE UNEMPLOYED PILOTS JOBS"!!!????!!!!??? My God, what the hell are you talking about? He destroyed the jobs of 1000's of CAL and EAL pilots. He created legions of unemployed pilots. Did he buy FAL when they were in bk. Yes. Big friggin deal. Yours was one of the dumbest statements I have ever heard on this board, and that is certainly saying a lot.
One last thing. I agree that the Delta Express operation is a B scale. That's why i voted against it. However, our 737 captains on express will be maing $230/ hour at contract end. How much do your 777 captains make? Don't even talk to me about b-scale, your whole contract is a b-scale.
That being said, I really do wish you the best on your next contract. I hope you catch up to us. It would help us all.
By the way, I would be careful who you tell to "watch your mouth". I am quite confident that you wouldn't be able to do anything about it even if I didn't "watch my mouth." You needn't have worried, however. I always try to be respectful on these boards. I have yet to call anyone a "brain surgeon", express happiness over someone "getting a taste of their own medicine" in the form of a furlough, or call anyone a "DBA".
FlyDeltasJets said:I just re-read my post, and wanted to make sure that I didn't give the wrong impression regarding the pilots at CAL. I know that most of their scabs are gone, and I know that of the pilots that are there now, the vast majority are fine people. I brought up the history of the CAL pilot group only to demonstrate to Boeingman that if he wanted to condemn a pilot group for past actions, the most logical and obvious place to start would be CAL.
I do wish the CAL pilots the best of luck in their upcoming contract negotiations.
yet you seem to gladly take shots even in this post.
The only reason that I even entered this post was to defend the UAL pilot group from an attack YOU made on their history. My first post said nothing about any other pilot group, just good things about UAL. You dragged CAL into the post by putting down, in order,
1. UAL Pilots
2. Delta Pilots.
I only mentioned CAL in the context of comparing them to the pilots of UAL and DAL. I will say again, I did this just to defend them from YOUR unprovoked attacks. If you don't want a response, don't submit the post. If you live in a glass house, don't throw the stone.