Additional UAL Pilot Furloughs today

[Tim47SIP]

Boeingdood, DCI is Delta Connection Incorporated. it consists of ASA and Comair. I know, were just peons in the whole scheem of things, but were are trying. Got to go to work so try not to beat each other up to much. Will try to catch up in a few days.

 

[Boeingman]

FDJ:

It's only BullSh!t because you can't stand hearing another opinion contrary to your own. You take pride in your ostracizing and it is evident your lousy home life during the EAL strike from a child is coming to home roost as an adult. What you personally can't stand is I don't give a sh!t about it and am more concerned with the big picture. Do you jealously guard this resentment because it is the core of your entire character?

I am not a personal victim of the FAL issue. You play (and remind everyone) the poor pitiful victim of an EAL family that couldn't get its act together and now we see the end product manifested with you. I guess it is a similar situation about abused children become abusive. Come to think of it, as I said earlier it WAS abusive to expose kids to the crap your father was going through.


I characterized the Express operation after your snide remark about our "B" scale contract. You’re such an egotist you can't even remember your own digs. Once again to make yourself look high and mighty you then point out the extremes of both contracts and then fail to mention the toilet agreement you worked for at TWA but call ours a "B" scale contract. So again I ask, what was the ALPA negotiated contract at TWA? A "D" scale?

I don't care what you appreciate about what who has done. UAL does not walk on water in my opinion. Perhaps you view them with the capability of parting of the seas and the industry riding on the backs of you and you brothers at DAL, but I don't. Good thing you're on reserve since all this patting yourself on the back has to of pulled some muscles.

Knock it off with the noble warrior crap and defense of scabs. What is it going to take to get through your thick head that it is an issue that needs to be dealt with on my property differently than your immature methods? You enjoy comparing a flippant comment about UAL to the same level to try and make your case.
A stretch at best and your very transparent.

I never had to forgive any other ALPA groups. Just because my exposure to DAL pilots in the past I stated they all come across as elitist a$$holes? You are a prime example of what I am talking about. Your attitude drips with arrogance, you slant with every lame angle you can find and you shove your ideals and values down others throats.

You keep mouthing off about forgiving. I am far past worrying about what happened before, I am only concerned about the future. You seem to have this need to be acknowledged about your anger harboring deep inside. And WE at CAL need the unity with the scabs. You’re a complete moron if you think we'll be able to achieve anything otherwise. I know this flies in the face of everything you base your life on, but it is our situation at CAL. If you keep critizing my (and many others at CAL) opinions on how to achieve OUR contract I must say mind your own f*cking business and stop putting your words, ideals attitude in my mouth.

Don't lecture me about the RJ situation. If you give yourself any more emotional medals for your own opinions you're going to fall off that pulpit you keep preaching to everyone on. I make an observation, based on my experiences in the industry and you reduce it to a one list concept. The anger brewing amongst the regional folks represented by ALPA go far beyond the SSL. Obviously your intellectual and emotional ability to absorb what I am saying is not possible so why continue?

Perhaps by glossing over why I keep saying about the reason people cross is a dark area you just don't want to admit to or confront? I don't know and I don't care. But others thankfully have looked at the reasons. Stay as a line pilot, your views will do the association no good.

Insulted UAL pilots? Nope. I was just commenting on their own words from an ALPA officer at the time. If they sound insulting go piss and moan to your UAL friends. They said it first and it insulted me as an ALPA member at the time their flippant attitude towards another staunch ALPA group. Of course you were still dreaming of your first case of stink finger at that time so I can hardly blame you for your bent perception in this area.

I believe my last statement to you was an olive branch as well. Not only to try and point out that you can keep (nor do I care) your ideals etc. etc, they just don't work on everyone, everywhere. CAL is a unique situation and crap out of other ALPA members like you makes our job even harder. That pisses me off. Plain enough?

But no that's not good enough for you is it? You have to reduce back to some foolish comparison about my ideals of ALPA and the scab issue. I keep ignoring them until now because it might have sent a message that your sounding like a jerkoff trying to compare the same beliefs. But I guess I have to say it. So there you go.

I'll talk all day if you'd like. I'm getting paid to sit home as well on SL. Additionally I'm working on some other outside interest so have at it.

You've probably been outgunned more than you think sport. You're ego just refuses to admit it. I've seen guys like you crash and burn for years. Only a matter of time for you.

 

[Boeingman]

Boeingdood, DCI is Delta Connection Incorporated. it consists of ASA and Comair. I know, were just peons in the whole scheem of things, but were are trying. Got to go to work so try not to beat each other up to much. Will try to catch up in a few days.

I don't consider you guys pions at all. The entire RJ i and it's issues are a force to be reckoned with.

FDJ doesn't seem to acknowledge it, but I see some big problems unless the playing field gets leveled between us mainline guys and you Revenue jet folks.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

This is getting old.

First of all, first time the b-scale was mentioned was when I praised the UAL guys for fighting it in 85. You came back and put the Delta Express operation down (in your typical nasty way). Only then did I talk about your current contract. So in retrospect, you did not "characterize the express operation after my snide remark about your b-scale contract." Once again, cause and effect. You insulted our express, I insulted your contract. You brought it up, not me. And if you remember correctly, I wrote often wishing you luck in your negotiations. Missed that part, did ya?

Secondly, I did not remind everyone about my Eastern association. You asked. I answered. Cause and effect.

Third, my father had started a business long before EAL went under. Financially, we were fine. My father did "have his act together." It just hurt us to watch him lose something he loved. Inappropriate comment you made, by the way.

Never said UAL "walked on water". You made a snide remark about UAL guys getting furloughed. I pointed out that they have helped our profession. Again, cause and effect.

I never once told you how to treat the issues on the CAL property. I said the I didn't think the scabs should be forgiven. I did not, however, tell you how to handle your negotiations at CAL. I simply wished you luck. If you want to forgive the scabs, so be it. The only reason that I even brought them up is that you were so adamant in telling me how bad the ual guys were. All I said is that if you were looking for someone with a history of harming ALPA, you had some targets right on the property. Once more, cause and effect.

I wasn't "lecturing" you about the rj. I simply pointed out, once again in response to you, that I was aware there is a problem. I dare say that I have posted far more than you have on the proper way to deal with that problem. Yet you persist in saying that I don't "acknowledge" the problem exists.

I won't even get in to a conversation with you about who has more "intellectual and emotional ability" to absorb what the other is saying. The history of this thread is a much more eloquent response than I could ever write.


By the way, "Sport" I have been outgunned more times than you know. More than enough to knock most of the ego out of me. Just not in debates. And especially not in this one! Thanks for your kind words about me "crashing and burning" by the way. Sounds like you are looking forward to it. If you reread all of my posts, I have never hoped for anything but the best for you and your pilot group. I long ago stopped expecting the same courtesy from you.

All that being said, I will accept your olive branch (even though it feels like you are hitting me with it rather than handing it to me!). I will admit that you are in a unique situation. You will have to handle it your own way. I wish you the best

 

[~~~^~~~]

You have an army of highly qualified RJ pilots who are getting either a perceived or actual shafting by ALPA. It concerns me when there is another showdown of these ramifications.

True - it is smoldering dynomite - particularly if an airline gets desperate and tries a Lorenzo style bankruptcy reorganization. The wall ALPA has built through the middle of the union is very dangerous. (Scary thought - would Delta have less of a cash burn if the mainline jets were parked? I think we know what the answer is at US Air)

The Delta MEC may be in a unique position to perform a heroic act to restore the union by integrating the Connection guys. Having all Delta flying performed by Delta pilots on a 12,000 strong list - wow.

In recent history the United MEC and their pilots have been very supportive of the Connection pilot group - we appreciate it.

 

[Boeingman]

FDJ:

I thought you said you enjoyed doing this. Now it's getting tiring?

Yes I charaterized your B scale operation after you mentioned it. But I was first pointing out the hypocrisy of the initial post you made about UAL fighting the B scale. You sounded like you were in awe of them. Sounded kind of dumb to me coming from a pilot representing a group that voted in a B scale after all the years ALPA was fighting against it.


You call that an insult? Grow some thicker skin. If it is insulting to you it is either a character flaw or a contractual flaw. You pick. How is that for cause and effect?


Your EAL association was forwarded on your post on 1/29 @2047 in the end. It was a "BTW" type comment when I only asked
in essence (since I know you split hairs) what your association to the CAL strike was. Close, but your attempts to be one in the same do not wash with me.

Never said they (UAL) walked on water but your inferences come across that way. They did what everybody is trying to do to achieve the best results for themselves. Good for them, but I am not in awe like you seem to be. Snide remark? Nope, it was THEIR remark just passed back .. Again your beef with this statement should be with the authors not the messenger i.e. UAL MEC.

History of harming ALPA with CAL? I am the last person you need to remind of that. To dredge up the scab issue becasue of your hurt feelings about THEIR comment (UAL) about another ALPA group is pretty lame. Your cause and effect theory is kinda idiotic when it was UAL MEC's own snide remarks about a once proud pilot group. One comment that effected directly on my family and enlightened me to the arrogance on property there at the time.


The problem you don't acknowledge reference the RJ is the alienation of many commuter guys with ALPA. You don't care to hear about my concerns about why people cross picket lines.
You only have a one track mind to ostracize. Good for you. I know this is a major issue for your emotional well being. I'm personally far beyond it. Again, don't be our martyrs.

Having seen first hand the masses of ex ALPA pilots that decimated our strike I see the same formula brewing again. Go ahead stick you head in the sand and not talk to people. This is a beatiful example of your cause and effect.


I agree, the history of this thread exposes your narrow minded views and sheds light on the serious problems that exist with the CAL group getting support for all of our pilots to get what we deserve.

The crash and burn comment was a wake up call. Take it or leave it. (Cause) You sound like some people I have known over the years.......(Effect) some that are no longer with us.

You guys already have the best over there. I made a comment that in my opinion your pay scales won't last. Am I not allowed to have an opinion? I really don't concern myself about DAL, UAL NWA right at this time. Just CAL.

I do hope you guys are able to fly your contract to it's term and I have said on more than one occasion that I pray you (or anyone)never go through what we did at CAL (remember being tested)?

That being said, I think this industry is in for some major changes and these contracts you enjoy are going to be a thing of the past. God knows what turmoil it will bring but I see a big stoem on the horizon. That is why I am ready for plan B for flying.

Funny, I feel like it is 1980 all over again with Frank and NYA, just different circumsatnces causing the turmoil.

 

[Boeingman]

True - it is smoldering dynomite - particularly if an airline gets desperate and tries a Lorenzo style bankruptcy reorganization. The wall ALPA has built through the middle of the union is very dangerous. (Scary thought - would Delta have less of a cash burn if the mainline jets were parked? I think we know what the answer is at US Air)

The Delta MEC may be in a unique position to perform a heroic act to restore the union by integrating the Connection guys. Having all Delta flying performed by Delta pilots on a 12,000 strong list - wow.

In recent history the United MEC and their pilots have been very supportive of the Connection pilot group - we appreciate it.

This is exactly what I am trying to get through FDJ's head about preventing a problem before it happens. You have to undersatnd the fundamental reasons why people scab. Ugly but true. I don't care what anyone says you NEVER know who will walk the line until the actual nut cutting happens.

We had guys cross that were the loudest and proactive ALPA guys and we had guys go full term that I never would of imagined had the balls.

When I look at the number of ex ALPA people that crossed as new hires, it makes me wonder....Are we making the same mistakes today?

I asked for info about that RJDC cause my head as a mainline guy is in the sand as well. I do see a real problem brewing and a rift with the representation. It will come back to bite us all in the ass.

I am afraid it is about to explode at CAL with the CALEX and CAL issues. I'm with you, all one list. The RJ today is nothing more than the DC-9-10's and 737-100's of the 60's.

We are all about to be checkmated by management.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

Once again you missed the point.

When I said that this is getting tiring, I meant going over the same points over and over again was tiring.

I never once said that we should not address the problems ALPA is facing. In fact, I have been discussing that long before this thread. I agree that we need to address the problems we as a union are facing.

However, that does not mean I will ever forgive the scabs.

The two are not mutually exclusive, as you seem to think. I can do both. I think addressing the current problems we have, at the same time ostracizing the scabs, serve the same purpose...Preventing more people from crossing future picket lines.

I will try to say it more clearly. I cannot ignore what scabs have done. That does not mean I must ignore current problems.


Hopefully this will clear it up.

 

[Boeingman]

Once again you missed the point.

When I said that this is getting tiring, I meant going over the same points over and over again was tiring.

I never once said that we should not address the problems ALPA is facing. In fact, I have been discussing that long before this thread. I agree that we need to address the problems we as a union are facing.

However, that does not mean I will ever forgive the scabs.

The two are not mutually exclusive, as you seem to think. I can do both. I think addressing the current problems we have, at the same time ostracizing the scabs, serve the same purpose...Preventing more people from crossing future picket lines.

I will try to say it more clearly. I cannot ignore what scabs have done. That does not mean I must ignore current problems.


Hopefully this will clear it up.

What is tiring for you is (and the impression I get), I will not be brow beaten into your ideal or agendas.

The problems that we as a union are facing has the potential to create an army of scabs. You just don't think it can happen.

You do not want to acknowledge the fact the ALPA policies and past hose jobs have played a part in the scab issue. Your choice is to ostrasize and condemn. The scab you hassle today, or RJ guy you hose tom., or former ALPA member double crossed, will be the guy laughing at you as he crosses your line.

The ostrasizing in my opinion does nothing but give those so inclined the itch to just do it again. When you start hassleing MY pilots, it is an issue with me because it will effect the unity we need to attain our goals. One of the common themes by many who crossed was the absolute hatred of ALPA. The harrassment and or policies just further fosters this pure disdain.

Are you really that foolish to belive that your ostrasizing , as a whole wil be effective. No way. If you think this is an effective weapon you are kidding yourself. Sure you'll push around some weaker folks, but from my viewpoint on this issue it creates more determination to hose guys just like you and I. The ALPA member.


You've made your point time and time again about forgiving scabs. Time and time again I have said to you, fine by me. Your choice. I just think for a guy who was 11 during our strike it is not in your place to be the martyr for the CAL striking pilots.

For every pilot out there that follows ALPA like a religon, there are those just as anti ALPA.

I'm not talking about inviting these guys home to dinner or swapping your wife with them for christ sakes.

Is that clear enough?

 

[~~~^~~~]

This thread has taken an interesting direction.

Also consider that ALPA has divided pilot groups on the same property - meaning that the potential scab has several motivations in addition to the money. On the Delta property there are pilots on both sides of the fence that feel they have a score to settle. While we are divided each new contract makes one group winners and the other losers. The division and animosity grows.

While fostering these divisions and animosity - ALPA forgave the Continental scabs without back dues - this sent many pilots the message that ALPA doesn't consider scabbing to be any big deal - at least it can be forgiven.

Then you add to this volitile mix deliberate exclusion of the Connection pilots in negotiations over their pay and working conditions - which lead members of our MEC to talk about a decertification effort and an ALPA card burning party on ramp 3.

It is a dangerous situation. ALPA needs to fight for integration like their life depends on it because - their life just may depend on it. It may be painful, but ALPA must pull together.

 

[Boeingman]

This thread has taken an interesting direction.

Also consider that ALPA has divided pilot groups on the same property - meaning that the potential scab has several motivations in addition to the money. On the Delta property there are pilots on both sides of the fence that feel they have a score to settle. While we are divided each new contract makes one group winners and the other losers. The division and animosity grows.

While fostering these divisions and animosity - ALPA forgave the Continental scabs without back dues - this sent many pilots the message that ALPA doesn't consider scabbing to be any big deal - at least it can be forgiven.

Then you add to this volitile mix deliberate exclusion of the Connection pilots which has even lead members of our MEC to talk about a decertification effort and an ALPA card burning party on ramp 3.

It is a dangerous situation. ALPA needs to fight for integration like their life depends on it because - their life just may depend on it.

Bingo.

I am glad to see that some of our regional brothers see the big picture here about the growing discontent and the ramifications it may cause.

But don't worry.....FDJ will try and scare and ostrasize anyone not to cross his picket line.

 

[TurboS7]

Since it has been revealed that DFJ has a striking EAL viewpoint but from a teenage perspective. When I was a teenager I heard rumors that the outfit my Dad worked for had CIA operative conncections. The people in charge said no way and I believed them and continued too. It wasn't until I was given the honest truth and shown the facts that I realized that I had been had-that was 20 years later. You can yell and scream all you want with a picket sign but no way are you going to stop a bunch of eagar RJ driver's from the left seat of a 777. You can call them all kinds of names and kick them out of the brotherhood, but when there are more of them than there are of you, what are you going to do. It is hard to deny a jumpseat when you are just walking the pavement. I agree with you Mr. Boeingman the worse thing that the EAL pilot's did was leave their seats. And the worse thing that the IAM guys ever did was listen to Charlie. If they would have had cool heads and gone with the status quo they could've been part of the largest airline in the world. American still would be sputtering out of DFW. The CAL senority list would have survived it sure has survived and thrived with all the other B.S. it has had to put up with it. But Eastern guys are Eastern guys and they would rather have nothing then to have another name for their airline. That was about a 3M dollar mistake for the satisfaction. I am sure everyone could use that money now. Get one seniority list or you guys will destroy yourselves and your futures. That includes UAL,DAL,AA.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

Boeingman,

You're quite right I will scare and ostracize anyone who crosses a picket line. I think that has proven to be very effective to a lot of people a lot of times.

I will also continue to address the problems facing ALPA today. That is also an effective tool. Nowhere is it written, and never did I say that if you cannot pursue both measures.

For all of your snotty replies, before this thread I have not heard you post a single time of the effects of a two-tier system, the RJDC suit, onelist, etc. I have. I have had meaningful dialogue with many people, on both sides of the fence. We all want what is best for the profession. Often we have different methods to achieve the same goal. But for you to accuse me of being blind to the facts, burying my head in the sand, etc. shows that you are spouting off without knowing the facts. I understand the issues. I have taken the time to learn them. Have you?

I don't know how many times I can say this. Continue to treat the scabs like the scum that they are. At the same time, continue to work towards a better ALPA.

I believe both of those methods are effective, and necessary.

 

[~~~^~~~]

I have had meaningful dialogue with many people, on both sides of the fence. We all want what is best for the profession. Often we have different methods to achieve the same goal. I have taken the time to learn them.

Continue to treat the scabs like the scum that they are. At the same time, continue to work towards a better ALPA.

Thanks, and AMEN!

 

[Boeingman]

Boeingman,
You're quite right I will scare and ostracize anyone who crosses a picket line. I think that has proven to be very effective to a lot of people a lot of times.

Sure go ahead. It didn't do squat in 1983 and it won't do squat in the next battle either. But this is mentally stimulating for you. I really don't care. I am speaking from a matter of perspective having witnessed it first hand. Let's see you were in the 5th grade at the time?

Scare? LOL boy you took the bait hook line and sinker.
What are you the boogie man as well? Is there no end to your abilities MR FDJ? Do you realize how stupid that sounds to actually believe that?

I was just testing your maturity level from my other post.

I will also continue to address the problems facing ALPA today. That is also an effective tool. Nowhere is it written, and never did I say that if you cannot pursue both measures.

No kidding? Thanks for the update.

For all of your snotty replies, before this thread I have not heard you post a single time of the effects of a two-tier system, the RJDC suit, onelist, etc. I have. I have had meaningful dialogue with many people, on both sides of the fence. We all want what is best for the profession. Often we have different methods to achieve the same goal. But for you to accuse me of being blind to the facts, burying my head in the sand, etc. shows that you are spouting off without knowing the facts. I understand the issues. I have taken the time to learn them. Have you?

Because I just started viewing the boards. That good enough for you?

I'm stil digesting that RJDC suit. If you looked hard enough you'd find I asked "in 50 words or less" for an explanation.

Snotty replies? Your ego must give you a free reign on those. That why it is ok for you? Go re read your original reply to me. I guess you came across to me the same way as you did to the CF guys.

I don't know how many times I can say this. Continue to treat the scabs like the scum that they are. At the same time, continue to work towards a better ALPA.

Well sport that won't work at CAL. Like I said, on of these days your big mouth is going to get you in trouble. You talk a good game, but I can think of a few of those guys you start your attitude with they are going to take you apart.

Still no answer from you on why so many ex ALPA members crossed? You have conviently ignored that.

I believe both of those methods are effective, and necessary.

Your viewpoint of effectiveness compared to mine is a joke.