ABX Air to Acquire CHI

[b707guy]

Hi!

Does CAT fit into this somewhere?

cliff
YIP

No, if you are referring to Custom Air Transport. No relation to us.


Penguin:

btw. ATI, are you guys Cat 2?

Wish we were. The RA on some of our aircraft test differently from the others. I have been told that those were once operated to Cat II mins, and I seem to recall seeing some placards showing that as well, but we don't train for it, nor is it in our ops specs.

 

[Cargoav8or]

2) Parallel Operations and Asset Dispositions
a) Except as otherwise provided in this Article 1, the
Company shall not directly or through an Affiliate establish
any new airline and/or air carrier, or acquire a controlling
interest in any air carrier which conducts airline operations,
including international operations, of the type covered by
Article 1, Section E.1., unless such operations are performed
by crewmembers on the ABX Air, Inc. Crewmember
Seniority List in accordance with this Agreement to the
same extent as if the operations were performed in and for
the service of ABX Air, Inc.
(emphasis added) So on second glance our DHL flying looks pretty secure too.

Again, I'm sure we can protect our scope without any grievance or injunctions that try to steal existing jobs.

Shoes on the other foot now baby, lets see how you walk with it. Hell, your already quoting your scope. :laugh:

The above sure looks like a nice warm welcome to your brohters and sisters at ATI and CHI. As long as they remember it everything should be OK!

 

[SkyMiles]

Hey Cargo,
Why dont you take a poll and see if CHI and ATI would rather be operating under their contract (ie. pay rates) or ABX's. One seniority list, ABX's new contract, and a great business model (all facets of the acmi business covered) could yield great opportunities. When you think about it this company is out front in the acmi business. I cant think of one other acmi that encompases what ABX now has. Once again, in my understanding, by adhering to our scope no one will loose a job and all boats will be lifted by the tide. Unlike astars grievance. And yes it is a warm welcome. Played correctly, by both management and the unions, all 3 airlines could be in great shape in the years to come.

 

[penguin22]

Shoes on the other foot now baby, lets see how you walk with it. Hell, your already quoting your scope. :laugh:

The above sure looks like a nice warm welcome to your brohters and sisters at ATI and CHI. As long as they remember it everything should be OK!

If we were Astar, baby, we'd be making claim on all of ATI's and Capital's freight and file an injunction to effectively shut those airlines down. Do you really think that's what we're gonna do? I suppose in your distorted reality thats the only way to go here. Since that's what you did.

 

[Cargoav8or]

Hey Cargo,
Why dont you take a poll and see if CHI and ATI would rather be operating under their contract (ie. pay rates) or ABX's. One seniority list, ABX's new contract, and a great business model (all facets of the acmi business covered) could yield great opportunities. When you think about it this company is out front in the acmi business. I cant think of one other acmi that encompases what ABX now has. Once again, in my understanding, by adhering to our scope no one will loose a job and all boats will be lifted by the tide. Unlike astars grievance. And yes it is a warm welcome. Played correctly, by both management and the unions, all 3 airlines could be in great shape in the years to come.

Hey SKY,

I wouldn't have joined your little shin dig but P felt he need to take a shot. My response was related directly to that. 1224 has a bunch of good folks and few bad, as does 017.

My point was I haven't seen any CCI or ATI guys talking about defending their jobs, but I do see an ABX scope pasted for all to see. Protect your own. You all need to join the 1224 and have a member on the board. Astar is becoming more irrelevant daily, the combined lift and prospects look great. I wish you all, the 1224 too, well.

Good luck, I will stay out of the middle of your utopia.

 

[Cargoav8or]

If we were Astar, baby, we'd be making claim on all of ATI's and Capital's freight and file an injunction to effectively shut those airlines down. Do you really think that's what we're gonna do? I suppose in your distorted reality thats the only way to go here. Since that's what you did.

Nope, because we would have no claim (not DHL freight) and you don't because you have no claim. But if you did I have no doubt the direction you would travel. And so I don't have to continue this childish convo with you, apparently the courts feel we have a valid claim otherwise it would have been thrown out, yet it wasn't.

Enough said, enjoy your day.

 

[penguin22]

Nope, because we would have no claim (not DHL freight)

And before DHL bought Airborne, our freight was Airborne Express. (not DHL freight)

 

[Cargoav8or]

And before DHL bought Airborne, our freight was Airborne Express. (not DHL freight)

Sending you a PM

 

[LarryinTN]

My point was I haven't seen any CCI or ATI guys talking about defending their jobs, but I do see an ABX scope pasted for all to see.

Nobody's trying to take their jobs. What we'd like to do it get them onto our seniority list. I would think that the CCI and ATI guys would want that as well.

 

[Box-Hauler]

Seems to me that the difference between what has been said so far is that APA1224 would like the CHI pilots to all join in for the better of the group, and to have some leverage againt Hete, if it comes to that.

Funny I do not remember any offers from ALPA of a combined list between Astar and Abx, like was mentioned many times before on this board. Seems it could have alieveiated some problems.....

 

[kaveman9]

"Nobody's trying to take their jobs. What we'd like to do it get them onto our seniority list. I would think that the CCI and ATI guys would want that as well."


Uhmmm,........you might think that. I'm not so sure. Just where on that seniority list do you propose putting us?

We've got a pretty stable crew force over at ATI. I would guess the median would be 10-12yrs service with 18-20 at the upper end. Most of us are perfectly happy with life over here(but of course, like anyone, we have our gripes). For the time being, I'm quite content to stick with the devil I know, flying our freight in our A/C. If I wanted someone else's job, I'd have asked for it years ago.

If I was asked directly, I think I'd prefer not to be merged into a seniority list even if based on doh, let alone tagged onto the bottom of one. Your pay means less to me than my QOL. OTOH, I'm open to suggestions. But then again, I don't think anyone's ever going to ask me anything, so it's a moot point.

We have all sorts of time to work these things out. I think what's important here is that we quickly learn to work together for the common good and resist the temptation to side up against one another. Management is sure to agitate if history is any guide. I'll state this right here, right now. Nobody is going to use me against another crewmember, no matter who he works for or what equipment he flies. No way-no how. If that's what they've got in mind, they had better think again.

There's a constant rumble over at ATI about switching locals. Always has been. I would say a majority over here are hugely disappointed with 747 and the one alternative that is consistently brought up is a switch over to your local. I think that might have some legs.

To be honest, I don't know much more about ABX than what I've picked up here on this forum in the last day and a half, but from what I've been reading I think we have a lot in common. At any rate, it's obvious that someone somewhere is cloning management teams. Peas in a pod, these guys are. While reading about your troubles, I keep getting that 'deja vu all over again' feeling. Looks like we're in it together for now.

 

[Box-Hauler]

kaveman,

Excellent point, most of us like our current stations in life, me included. That said you should take a look at our current contract and pay scales. One unionized voice is a lot better than 3 separate ones.

I will second, third, and fourth your opinion, "Nobody is going to use me against another crew member" I agree and will stand with you 100% on this issue.

Look forward to meeting your pilot group and ensuring a long stable career for all of us.

 

[MrSky]

Nobody's trying to take their jobs. What we'd like to do it get them onto our seniority list. I would think that the CCI and ATI guys would want that as well.

We are not interested in your work. As far as being on a 600+ Seniority list, I'm not so sure I'm interested in that either. I've worked here nearly 10 years, depending on Reduction in Force I'm either a Very High seniority F/O or a Fairly Low seniority CA. I'm sure as Hell not interested in being stapled to the bottom of a seniority list I would never climb anywhere near the middle of for a few extra bucks and loose all the QOL (what there is of it) to some new-hire at ABX.

Believe me there is NO OFFENSE MEANT by my statement. I'm sure you have a great bunch of guy's in your pilot group, in fact at one time I was going to interview there, but you announced hiring a freeze the day before my interview. But to give up the QOL I have now for a few extra shillings, not too sure about that one. I'd much rather have an increase in my pay (something closer to yours) and stay on my own puny list than be put on the bottom of yours, like American did to TWA. And reading some of your guys posts in the past I think you probably have small radical element in your pilot group that would be pushing to do just that! Thanks,,,, but No Thanks!

 

[LarryinTN]

Just where on that seniority list do you propose putting us?

Date of hire with fences on existing equipment so that you won't have pilots from either side bumping guys down on their current equipment.

We will all be a much stronger if we are a single group instead of three separate groups.

 

[HeavyjetDC8]

Tricky business merging seniority lists, lots of pitfalls with the devil being in the details. Uniting under one union though shouldn't be too difficult with the goal of a common CBA to remove the low cost carrier element from the equation.

 

[penguin22]

Date of hire with fences on existing equipment so that you won't have pilots from either side bumping guys down on their current equipment.

We will all be a much stronger if we are a single group instead of three separate groups.

That sounds reasonable.

Nobody should get stapled. That's a recipe for constant infighting and nobody needs that.

 

[erichartmann]

"Nobody's trying to take their jobs. What we'd like to do it get them onto our seniority list. I would think that the CCI and ATI guys would want that as well."


Uhmmm,........you might think that. I'm not so sure. Just where on that seniority list do you propose putting us?

We've got a pretty stable crew force over at ATI. I would guess the median would be 10-12yrs service with 18-20 at the upper end. Most of us are perfectly happy with life over here(but of course, like anyone, we have our gripes). For the time being, I'm quite content to stick with the devil I know, flying our freight in our A/C. If I wanted someone else's job, I'd have asked for it years ago.

If I was asked directly, I think I'd prefer not to be merged into a seniority list even if based on doh, let alone tagged onto the bottom of one. Your pay means less to me than my QOL. OTOH, I'm open to suggestions. But then again, I don't think anyone's ever going to ask me anything, so it's a moot point.

We have all sorts of time to work these things out. I think what's important here is that we quickly learn to work together for the common good and resist the temptation to side up against one another. Management is sure to agitate if history is any guide. I'll state this right here, right now. Nobody is going to use me against another crewmember, no matter who he works for or what equipment he flies. No way-no how. If that's what they've got in mind, they had better think again.

There's a constant rumble over at ATI about switching locals. Always has been. I would say a majority over here are hugely disappointed with 747 and the one alternative that is consistently brought up is a switch over to your local. I think that might have some legs.

To be honest, I don't know much more about ABX than what I've picked up here on this forum in the last day and a half, but from what I've been reading I think we have a lot in common. At any rate, it's obvious that someone somewhere is cloning management teams. Peas in a pod, these guys are. While reading about your troubles, I keep getting that 'deja vu all over again' feeling. Looks like we're in it together for now.

How about DOH, everybody stays in the seat their in? Any future upgrades posted for bid and awarded by seniority. Same with furloughs. Maybe some sort of fence agreement that would prevent cross bidding unless the seat would otherwise go to the street. Then we see about negotiating one master contract with Joe & Co. We are currently in negotiations, as I believe are the folks at ATI. Don't know about CCI. The goal would be to speak with one voice to management, just as they will to us. Keep them from whipsawing us.

 

[erichartmann]

..... And so I don't have to continue this childish convo with you, apparently the courts feel we have a valid claim otherwise it would have been thrown out, yet it wasn't.

Enough said, enjoy your day.

Unless something new has occured I'm unaware of that not how I read what the courts have so far done. To date, in so far as I know, they have ruled against you and you have appealed. That is not quite the same as having a valid claim.

 

[erichartmann]

Shoes on the other foot now baby, lets see how you walk with it. Hell, your already quoting your scope. :laugh:

The above sure looks like a nice warm welcome to your brohters and sisters at ATI and CHI. As long as they remember it everything should be OK!

While the E-board has been diligent in trying to keep our scope language up to date I doubt the average line pilot had recently read it. What's going on here is us trying to figure out how Joe might use this against us. None of us want ATI or CCI jobs. Our approach will more than likely be to try and get them to join with us under one union roof, one master seniority list, and negotiate one master CBA.

 

[Flyer8]

DC8's

I can't speak for all the guys at ATI,but it would seem that most are very pleased to be part of the group. I am sure that many would welcome a change to your Local. Does anyone know what they would like to do with our DC'8's? New markets? contracts,etc...Thanks for the info