ABX 1224 how low will you go?

[FastHap]

they may be able to dictate who, but for how much is another story. If you get the chance, physical challenge, just pass and walkaway

Nice "trade unionism".

How many ABX guys do you think you will be able to treat in such a manner before the FAA shuts down your training department?

Not to mention the EEOC charges...

 

[MrSky]

Hmmmmm.....

I can see how some "Lame A$$ Mainline or Commuter crew" might not ask you to "Bow and Curtsy" after reading that.

They'll just say "no"

Just sayin', that's all...

Again at this point I do not care... I do not Jumpseat to Work! And jumpseats Do Work Both Ways. But no one would care to see a Jumpseat war.

One other question I would think our guys would have... Lets say your the "surviving" carrier at ATSG and were hiring, would ATI & Cappy be hired on at your division? With full seniority benefits as you could possibly have with us?

 

[Flyer8]

I can't speak for ATI as a group,but I have been a freight dog for a lot of years and have seen a few things..I have never seen a subsidiary company,supposedly on the same rung in the company hierarchy, belonging to a different union, write a side letter to a contract dictating hiring practices,rates of pay and benefits and seniority and expect the other company to like it..The last guy recalled by ATI would have his seniority adjusted for the time he was furloughed,his vacation prorated and his pay adjusted accordingly. The first guy hired after him under this side letter from ABX would bring his current seniority for pay and vacations,etc,with him. How would that make our last guy called back feel to know the guy one number junior to him makes a lot more money and gets more vacation,sick days,etc..? I have never seen a guy quit one company and carry all this with him...Maybe I am missing something here, but the ability of a seperate airline,under a seperate union to write policy for another airline is something I just can't understand. Makes one wonder what else might be coming down the road if there is something else your "seperate company" decides to write a side letter about. Your contract is betweenyour pilot group and ABX, not the pilot group and ATSG.

 

[FastHap]

Your contract is betweenyour pilot group and ABX, not the pilot group and ATSG.

Not entirely true.

 

[nitefr8dog]

Again at this point I do not care... I do not Jumpseat to Work! And jumpseats Do Work Both Ways. But no one would care to see a Jumpseat war.

One other question I would think our guys would have... Lets say your the "surviving" carrier at ATSG and were hiring, would ATI & Cappy be hired on at your division? With full seniority benefits as you could possibly have with us?

Is it in your contract? If it is then the answer is yes! I f not then this is your chance to put it in. I have said before everything can be yours for a price.

 

[nitefr8dog]

I can't speak for ATI as a group,but I have been a freight dog for a lot of years and have seen a few things..I have never seen a subsidiary company,supposedly on the same rung in the company hierarchy, belonging to a different union, write a side letter to a contract dictating hiring practices,rates of pay and benefits and seniority and expect the other company to like it..The last guy recalled by ATI would have his seniority adjusted for the time he was furloughed,his vacation prorated and his pay adjusted accordingly. The first guy hired after him under this side letter from ABX would bring his current seniority for pay and vacations,etc,with him. How would that make our last guy called back feel to know the guy one number junior to him makes a lot more money and gets more vacation,sick days,etc..? I have never seen a guy quit one company and carry all this with him...Maybe I am missing something here, but the ability of a seperate airline,under a seperate union to write policy for another airline is something I just can't understand. Makes one wonder what else might be coming down the road if there is something else your "seperate company" decides to write a side letter about. Your contract is betweenyour pilot group and ABX, not the pilot group and ATSG.

You keep talking about ABX pilots quiting to go to ATI, this is for the ABX pilots on FURLOUGH I say again the pilots on FURLOUGH!. No one at ABX currently flying has any desire to work at ATI, lets see quit ABX flying a 767 take a hugh pay cut and fly a DC8. Not going to happen.This sideletter was agreed upon in the event ATI or Capitol happened to be hiring a furloughed pilot could get back to work. And actually the CEO of ATSG Joe Hete is the one who signed off on our contract, this SL and he will be the one you deal with on your contract like it or not.

 

[DC-8_FR8]

Nice "trade unionism".

How many ABX guys do you think you will be able to treat in such a manner before the FAA shuts down your training department?

Not to mention the EEOC charges...

Had nothing to do with training... The second sentence was an inside joke about interviews (not abx specific). My only real point is that ATI has a CBU that must agree to compensation, which longevity is a part of. No management entity (ATI or ATSG) can make changes unilaterally.

 

[FastHap]

Had nothing to do with training... The second sentence was an inside joke about interviews (not abx specific). My only real point is that ATI has a CBU that must agree to compensation, which longevity is a part of. No management entity (ATI or ATSG) can make changes unilaterally.

My apologies for taking it the wrong way. I guess everyone is just a little sensitive over this matter.

 

[LarryinTN]

We already have home basing (except for MIA) and we've already taken a hit on pay for it. To give up something just to keep our home basing would be concessionary and we're not going to do that.

I think you'll find a lot of support for the home basing system from ABX pilots; both those furloughed and still employed. Our negotiators proposed home basing in our current negotiations and the company wanted no part of it.

Would they also expect to keep recall rights in case "the big bucks airline" found an opening for them?

From what I understand, it would be a two-year lock-in. After the lock-in you could choose to return to ABX if your number was recalled.

 

[Flyer8]

You keep talking about ABX pilots quiting to go to ATI, this is for the ABX pilots on FURLOUGH I say again the pilots on FURLOUGH!. No one at ABX currently flying has any desire to work at ATI, lets see quit ABX flying a 767 take a hugh pay cut and fly a DC8. Not going to happen.This sideletter was agreed upon in the event ATI or Capitol happened to be hiring a furloughed pilot could get back to work. And actually the CEO of ATSG Joe Hete is the one who signed off on our contract, this SL and he will be the one you deal with on your contract like it or not.

I understand the furloughed part...Quit was a poor choice of words..I think I was tired and irritated at the time...What I meant to say is that I have never seen a FURLOUGHED PILOT retaining his seniority when being hired by a seperate company with a different union. This side letter was done "behind the curtain" without any conversation between ABX And ATI EXCO's and MEC's.The intent of this letter was not just to put out of work pilots back in a seat,but in a seat with a safety cushion.
I can see Mr.Hete telling Mr. Hobson that FULOUGHED ABX PILOTS should have priority over "off the street" applicants. But telling us that new hire ABX PILOTS have a right to make more money and benefits than recently recalled ATI PILOTS or "off the street" new hires is another story!
I also agree that we are dealing with Mr. Hete on our new contract, but I don't think he can change the hiring, pay, and seniority policies that are currently in our contract. If he can do that,none of our contracts,yours included, are worth the paper they are written on.

 

[niteflyr1]

Seems to me this is a tremendous benefit for any pilot on anyone's seniority list that is an ATSG owned company. I think ATI and Cappy should negotiate the same in their next contract. Why hire off of the street if any ATSG company's pilot is on furlough? Better yet, 1 airline 1 pilot list, stop the whipsawing.

 

[nitefr8dog]

I understand the furloughed part...Quit was a poor choice of words..I think I was tired and irritated at the time...What I meant to say is that I have never seen a FURLOUGHED PILOT retaining his seniority when being hired by a seperate company with a different union. This side letter was done "behind the curtain" without any conversation between ABX And ATI EXCO's and MEC's.The intent of this letter was not just to put out of work pilots back in a seat,but in a seat with a safety cushion.
I can see Mr.Hete telling Mr. Hobson that FULOUGHED ABX PILOTS should have priority over "off the street" applicants. But telling us that new hire ABX PILOTS have a right to make more money and benefits than recently recalled ATI PILOTS or "off the street" new hires is another story!
I also agree that we are dealing with Mr. Hete on our new contract, but I don't think he can change the hiring, pay, and seniority policies that are currently in our contract. If he can do that,none of our contracts,yours included, are worth the paper they are written on.

When I hired at ABX I was on furlough from 2 airlines (I was only at airline #2 for six mo) I was called back to the 2nd airline 2 years later. I chose to stay at ABX. We have 12 to 15 crew members who were furloughed or panicked and left when the DHL wheels came off. About half were asked to come back on the Oct 15th recall. A few are senior to me and can come in as captains and push me down...it is what it is. I agree JH cannot change anything in your contract so I am to believe your contact has a provision that no furloughed pilots can be hired or the union gets to decide who management can hire? I might raise the B.S. flag on that!

 

[Flyer8]

We have hired lots of furloughed pilots in the past and will continue to do so in the future, but they do not bring their seniority from another company with them. They start at the bottom. We have no problem with who the company hires..That's up to them. However, seniority within the company is a function of the contract..

 

[niteflyr1]

We have hired lots of furloughed pilots in the past and will continue to do so in the future, but they do not bring their seniority from another company with them. They start at the bottom. We have no problem with who the company hires..That's up to them. However, seniority within the company is a function of the contract..

The way I understand the agreement, they would indeed go to the bottom of the seniority list, but keep their longevity for pay and benefits.

 

[nitefr8dog]

The way I understand the agreement, they would indeed go to the bottom of the seniority list, but keep their longevity for pay and benefits.

Exactly!, seems like alot of heartburn over a few guys just trying to get a job.

 

[Flyer8]

When we hire furloughed pilots, they start at the bottom for everything. Bidding seniority,vacation accrual,pay, sick days,etc. This is the point I am trying make..Why would an ABX pilot expect to make twice as much money,keep his vacation,sick days, etc, over a pilot who was hired while on furlough from Continental? Neither one has ever worked for ATI.Or do you think the Continental pilot should keep all his former entilements, too..?
We are always hoping to provide jobs for furloughed pilots and we do feel the pain being furloughed brings with it..We have had our share of furloughs at ATI. We just object to another company telling us how we will pay and determine seniority within our own company. Hiring yes...Special treatment...no...
And as stated earlier,this was not negotiated with ATI..This was a blind side shot that was done by 1224 and Mr Hete...1224 has never negotiated anything with ATI..They do not communicate and this is a prime example of why ATI is very suspect of anything coming from ABX..
We have no quarrel with ABX pilots. Many of us have old friends there and would like to keep it that way. We know there is a great deal of experience and expertise within your group..We just expect all new hires to be treated equally.

 

[nitefr8dog]

When we hire furloughed pilots, they start at the bottom for everything. Bidding seniority,vacation accrual,pay, sick days,etc. This is the point I am trying make..Why would an ABX pilot expect to make twice as much money,keep his vacation,sick days, etc, over a pilot who was hired while on furlough from Continental? Neither one has ever worked for ATI.Or do you think the Continental pilot should keep all his former entilements, too..?
We are always hoping to provide jobs for furloughed pilots and we do feel the pain being furloughed brings with it..We have had our share of furloughs at ATI. We just object to another company telling us how we will pay and determine seniority within our own company. Hiring yes...Special treatment...no...
And as stated earlier,this was not negotiated with ATI..This was a blind side shot that was done by 1224 and Mr Hete...1224 has never negotiated anything with ATI..They do not communicate and this is a prime example of why ATI is very suspect of anything coming from ABX..
We have no quarrel with ABX pilots. Many of us have old friends there and would like to keep it that way. We know there is a great deal of experience and expertise within your group..We just expect all new hires to be treated equally.

The Continental pilot did not come from a company under the ATSG umbrella. This was a SL agreement between ATSG/ABXAIR in the future the deal may look very similar between ATSG/ATI in fact I would bet on it. American had a deal where furloughed pilots on the main line could flow to the Eagle system in a captain position and bump a pilot off the bottom if need be. All this without ever working day one at Eagle. To my knowledge it is still in place. I am sure this was not something the pilots at Eagle were pushing hard for or were happy about but both companies are owned by AMR and the mainline pilots were able to put it in there contract. (just an example not meant to compare please don't wig out)

 

[abxaviator]

I don't understand the heartburn. If it were reversed and it was ATI furloughees coming to ABX, as long as they were junior in SENIORITY and bid as a new hire, I wouldn't give a rip that they were paid based on longevity; that would have ZERO bearing on my ability to bid my seniority and thus would have no affect upon me.

 

[SMOE]

The Continental pilot did not come from a company under the ATSG umbrella. This was a SL agreement between ATSG/ABXAIR in the future the deal may look very similar between ATSG/ATI in fact I would bet on it. American had a deal where furloughed pilots on the main line could flow to the Eagle system in a captain position and bump a pilot off the bottom if need be. All this without ever working day one at Eagle. To my knowledge it is still in place. I am sure this was not something the pilots at Eagle were pushing hard for or were happy about but both companies are owned by AMR and the mainline pilots were able to put it in there contract. (just an example not meant to compare please don't wig out)

Eagle is owned by American, not separate entities like ABX/ATI. The flowback/flowthrough provision is in BOTH labor agreements I'm sure, like it was at CAL/ExpressJet. I'm no labor specialist, but it seems to me, to legitimize this side letter, it would need to be ratified as an LOA in ATI's CBA as well.

 

[nitefr8dog]

Eagle is owned by American, not separate entities like ABX/ATI. The flowback/flowthrough provision is in BOTH labor agreements I'm sure, like it was at CAL/ExpressJet. I'm no labor specialist, but it seems to me, to legitimize this side letter, it would need to be ratified as an LOA in ATI's CBA as well.

Actually Eagle is owned by AMR, as is American Airlines, Executive Airlines, TWA Airlines LLC. ABXAIR, ATI, Capitol and CAM Leasing are all owned by ATSG. Again when the main line contract was scoped the flow back was to provide jobs for mainline not the opposite. I am willing to bet this went over like a turd in the punch bowl!