ABX 1224 how low will you go?

[FastHap]

Don't get me wrong - we're happy to work together, and maybe, I'll go so far as to say 'probably', we'll all be one company under one certificate. But this is a strange way to show the love.

Who knows - maybe this is a baby step towards a national seniority list. But to quote a line from Blood Diamond, most people like to be kissed before they get xxxxed. We didn't even get a 'hello' before this proposal was put out. Now isn't that brotherly.

As you said, ATI is now ALPA, along with Cappy. So how is it that ABX represented by IBT can tell two ALPA carriers who to hire? Guess we'll see.

So ATI leaving the teamsters, that was "love"? Believe me, we had enough ALPA love from ASTAR! Don't shackle APA 1224 with Gene Sewel's baggage.

The ATSG board of directors dictate who the respective airlines will hire.

Facts are facts. Joe Hete and ABX Air bought CHI. Peter Fox is enjoying retirement. It's a bold new ACMI world for us all.

I hope we can all work together.

 

[Dick Cabeza]

I hope we can all work together.

Just chatting to my friends at ATI, Not sure that's gonna happen, at least not peacefully. Two separate pilot philosophies. Pay, Basing, etc

 

[b707guy]

And then he put ABX on a rung at the same level as ATI and Cappy.

ATI left IBT as a result of a ball that's been rolling since long before CHI was bought. It became obvious that the love was never going to return, so we started looking around. 1224 started right out of the barrel with a slash at our EXCOs hamstring. How's that for love? We were practically begged to go elsewhere.

You may be right in that ATSGs BOD may in fact dictate who the umbrella underlings are to hire and by which subsidiary. I don't know. But for now, there are three certificates with different needs and different fits. I don't care about original umbrella DOH for pay and benefits, in fact, I think it's a great opportunity. Even an interesting one. But we should still have some say. None of us will resolve this here.

Time for a beer.

 

[FastHap]

Just chatting to my friends at ATI, Not sure that's gonna happen, at least not peacefully. Two separate pilot philosophies. Pay, Basing, etc

Tell your "friends" that the alternative is to fight among our selves.

Is this what they are advocating? The proverbially "race to the bottom"?

And oh by the way, shouldn't you say three separate pilot philosophies, or are ATI and CCIA now all simpatico under ALPO?

 

[FastHap]

You may be right in that ATSGs BOD may in fact dictate who the umbrella underlings are to hire and by which subsidiary. I don't know. But for now, there are three certificates with different needs and different fits. I don't care about original umbrella DOH for pay and benefits, in fact, I think it's a great opportunity. Even an interesting one. But we should still have some say. None of us will resolve this here.

Time for a beer.

True enough!

Cheers!! :beer:

 

[FastHap]

Attention Mods

Just chatting to my friends at ATI, Not sure that's gonna happen, at least not peacefully. Two separate pilot philosophies. Pay, Basing, etc

My bad, this obviously is purely flame bate. My apologies to all for responding to this "person".

Attention mods: Can we please have this user's handle deleted? I find it offensive and of extremely poor taste and humor.

 

[Dick Cabeza]

Attention mods: Can we please have this user's handle deleted? I find it offensive and of extremely poor taste and humor.

I was thinking the same thing about your handle, Doooh....

You Sir Obviously have NO sense of Humor, probably a real stick in the mud to fly with.

PS not Flame Bating, it was just my friends thoughts. Don't take it personal dude.

 

[l8fr82hub]

I personally don't care if ATI puts a bunch of 12 year pay FO's at the bottom of the list unless those FO's begin to undermine our stance against out station basing as some new hires have done. JMHO.

 

[MrSky]

I personally don't care if ATI puts a bunch of 12 year pay FO's at the bottom of the list unless those FO's begin to undermine our stance against out station basing as some new hires have done. JMHO.

I agree, We need people on the property that are Proponents of Home Basing. If you just want to come to ATI for a job at any cost, please do not apply!
We get paid less than the good folks at ABX, but our Home Basing makes up for that. I haven't had to Bow and Curtsy to some Lame A$$ Mainline or Commuter crew to get to work for 10 years (no offense meant, just making a point). And we will fight for that privilege in our next contract!

 

[nitefr8dog]

I personally don't care if ATI puts a bunch of 12 year pay FO's at the bottom of the list unless those FO's begin to undermine our stance against out station basing as some new hires have done. JMHO.

You don't really think a few new hires waiting to be recalled could get your management to change your Home Basing policy do you? It would seem you have other things alot bigger to worry about. The ABX pilots saw an easy commute with 100+ stations turn into a commute nightmare with 14 ABX/DHL cities. We have pilots driving 10 and 12 hours to work to avoid having to jumpseat. ABX has quite a few trips that commercial on one or both ends, they disappear fast and go very senior.We heard rumors of Home Basing during this contract fight but it never happened. It was said on another post you would fight for continued Home Basing...the question is what will you give up? Pay, days off etc. Anything can be had for a price.

 

[l8fr82hub]

You don't really think a few new hires waiting to be recalled could get your management to change your Home Basing policy do you? It would seem you have other things alot bigger to worry about. The ABX pilots saw an easy commute with 100+ stations turn into a commute nightmare with 14 ABX/DHL cities. We have pilots driving 10 and 12 hours to work to avoid having to jumpseat. ABX has quite a few trips that commercial on one or both ends, they disappear fast and go very senior.We heard rumors of Home Basing during this contract fight but it never happened. It was said on another post you would fight for continued Home Basing...the question is what will you give up? Pay, days off etc. Anything can be had for a price.

We already have home basing (except for MIA) and we've already taken a hit on pay for it. To give up something just to keep our home basing would be concessionary and we're not going to do that.

And yes, a few new hires have already damaged our cause by bidding the MIA base and therefore locking themselves into that base. Had no one bid it management would have had to pay for a 767 type rating every time a home based DC-8 position became available and they had to assign someone new to the base because the person previously assigned would take the option of being home based. It would have made the base financially unfeasible.

As another poster said- there are two different philosophies when it comes to basing and pay. I would think the Cappy folks wouldn't be to eager to give up home basing either.

 

[DC-8_FR8]

so ati leaving the teamsters, that was "love"? Believe me, we had enough alpa love from astar! Don't shackle apa 1224 with gene sewel's baggage.

The atsg board of directors dictate who the respective airlines will hire.

Facts are facts. Joe hete and abx air bought chi. Peter fox is enjoying retirement. It's a bold new acmi world for us all.

I hope we can all work together.

they may be able to dictate who, but for how much is another story. If you get the chance, physical challenge, just pass and walkaway

 

[ABXbooger]

Now that ATSG knows that your home basing is so important to you, you might a s well kiss it goodbye!

 

[Whistlin' Dan]

I haven't had to Bow and Curtsy to some Lame A$$ Mainline or Commuter crew to get to work for 10 years (no offense meant, just making a point). And we will fight for that privilege in our next contract!

Hmmmmm.....

I can see how some "Lame A$$ Mainline or Commuter crew" might not ask you to "Bow and Curtsy" after reading that.

They'll just say "no"

Just sayin', that's all...

 

[Flyer8]

I suppose that any ABX guys/gals who decide to come to ATI would have to resign,withdraw from Teamsters 1224 and join ALPA...Would they also expect to keep recall rights in case "the big bucks airline" found an opening for them? This is a mess...Any opinions on how this would work? Or should we just shut up and do as we are are told? (we aren't real good at doing that)...

 

[abxaviator]

They are indeed entitled to recall at ABX and passing during the lock period does not count as a refusal.

 

[Flyer8]

I see how this going to work now...We pay the bills while you wait for ACMI aircraft to be finished..Plus we provide lower paying jobs for those of you who are furloughed.And you get to keep your seniority for pay,vacations, etc....What a deal..Two different seniority lists, two different uniforms, two different unions (both of whom will be working hard to protect your intrests)...I'll bet you will continue to accrue seniority at ABX while on sabbatical to ATI...

 

[abxaviator]

Not that it matters, but the vast majority of ABX furloughees will NEVER be recalled. So, if one should hire on at ATI via the contract provision, how is that any different than applying and being hired notwithstanding such a provision?

 

[nitefr8dog]

I suppose that any ABX guys/gals who decide to come to ATI would have to resign,withdraw from Teamsters 1224 and join ALPA...Would they also expect to keep recall rights in case "the big bucks airline" found an opening for them? This is a mess...Any opinions on how this would work? Or should we just shut up and do as we are are told? (we aren't real good at doing that)...

You will not see anybody resign at ABX, take a pay cut by choice probably not going to happen. And yes when you get furloughed from one arline you join the next airlines union. Not that uncommon. Most airlines also offer recall rights. This would all happen after any pilots at ATI or Capitol that were furloughed have been recalled so why all the heartburn? ASTG is the one who would pay the costs. It is not like it is coming out of your pocket.

 

[nitefr8dog]

We already have home basing (except for MIA) and we've already taken a hit on pay for it. To give up something just to keep our home basing would be concessionary and we're not going to do that.

And yes, a few new hires have already damaged our cause by bidding the MIA base and therefore locking themselves into that base. Had no one bid it management would have had to pay for a 767 type rating every time a home based DC-8 position became available and they had to assign someone new to the base because the person previously assigned would take the option of being home based. It would have made the base financially unfeasible.

As another poster said- there are two different philosophies when it comes to basing and pay. I would think the Cappy folks wouldn't be to eager to give up home basing either.

If you want it bad enough you will pay one way or another. Even if it means a smaller pay increase to have home basing it will cost somthing.

 

[FastHap]

they may be able to dictate who, but for how much is another story. If you get the chance, physical challenge, just pass and walkaway

Nice "trade unionism".

How many ABX guys do you think you will be able to treat in such a manner before the FAA shuts down your training department?

Not to mention the EEOC charges...

 

[MrSky]

Hmmmmm.....

I can see how some "Lame A$$ Mainline or Commuter crew" might not ask you to "Bow and Curtsy" after reading that.

They'll just say "no"

Just sayin', that's all...

Again at this point I do not care... I do not Jumpseat to Work! And jumpseats Do Work Both Ways. But no one would care to see a Jumpseat war.

One other question I would think our guys would have... Lets say your the "surviving" carrier at ATSG and were hiring, would ATI & Cappy be hired on at your division? With full seniority benefits as you could possibly have with us?

 

[Flyer8]

I can't speak for ATI as a group,but I have been a freight dog for a lot of years and have seen a few things..I have never seen a subsidiary company,supposedly on the same rung in the company hierarchy, belonging to a different union, write a side letter to a contract dictating hiring practices,rates of pay and benefits and seniority and expect the other company to like it..The last guy recalled by ATI would have his seniority adjusted for the time he was furloughed,his vacation prorated and his pay adjusted accordingly. The first guy hired after him under this side letter from ABX would bring his current seniority for pay and vacations,etc,with him. How would that make our last guy called back feel to know the guy one number junior to him makes a lot more money and gets more vacation,sick days,etc..? I have never seen a guy quit one company and carry all this with him...Maybe I am missing something here, but the ability of a seperate airline,under a seperate union to write policy for another airline is something I just can't understand. Makes one wonder what else might be coming down the road if there is something else your "seperate company" decides to write a side letter about. Your contract is betweenyour pilot group and ABX, not the pilot group and ATSG.

 

[FastHap]

Your contract is betweenyour pilot group and ABX, not the pilot group and ATSG.

Not entirely true.

 

[nitefr8dog]

Again at this point I do not care... I do not Jumpseat to Work! And jumpseats Do Work Both Ways. But no one would care to see a Jumpseat war.

One other question I would think our guys would have... Lets say your the "surviving" carrier at ATSG and were hiring, would ATI & Cappy be hired on at your division? With full seniority benefits as you could possibly have with us?

Is it in your contract? If it is then the answer is yes! I f not then this is your chance to put it in. I have said before everything can be yours for a price.

 

[nitefr8dog]

I can't speak for ATI as a group,but I have been a freight dog for a lot of years and have seen a few things..I have never seen a subsidiary company,supposedly on the same rung in the company hierarchy, belonging to a different union, write a side letter to a contract dictating hiring practices,rates of pay and benefits and seniority and expect the other company to like it..The last guy recalled by ATI would have his seniority adjusted for the time he was furloughed,his vacation prorated and his pay adjusted accordingly. The first guy hired after him under this side letter from ABX would bring his current seniority for pay and vacations,etc,with him. How would that make our last guy called back feel to know the guy one number junior to him makes a lot more money and gets more vacation,sick days,etc..? I have never seen a guy quit one company and carry all this with him...Maybe I am missing something here, but the ability of a seperate airline,under a seperate union to write policy for another airline is something I just can't understand. Makes one wonder what else might be coming down the road if there is something else your "seperate company" decides to write a side letter about. Your contract is betweenyour pilot group and ABX, not the pilot group and ATSG.

You keep talking about ABX pilots quiting to go to ATI, this is for the ABX pilots on FURLOUGH I say again the pilots on FURLOUGH!. No one at ABX currently flying has any desire to work at ATI, lets see quit ABX flying a 767 take a hugh pay cut and fly a DC8. Not going to happen.This sideletter was agreed upon in the event ATI or Capitol happened to be hiring a furloughed pilot could get back to work. And actually the CEO of ATSG Joe Hete is the one who signed off on our contract, this SL and he will be the one you deal with on your contract like it or not.

 

[DC-8_FR8]

Nice "trade unionism".

How many ABX guys do you think you will be able to treat in such a manner before the FAA shuts down your training department?

Not to mention the EEOC charges...

Had nothing to do with training... The second sentence was an inside joke about interviews (not abx specific). My only real point is that ATI has a CBU that must agree to compensation, which longevity is a part of. No management entity (ATI or ATSG) can make changes unilaterally.

 

[FastHap]

Had nothing to do with training... The second sentence was an inside joke about interviews (not abx specific). My only real point is that ATI has a CBU that must agree to compensation, which longevity is a part of. No management entity (ATI or ATSG) can make changes unilaterally.

My apologies for taking it the wrong way. I guess everyone is just a little sensitive over this matter.

 

[LarryinTN]

We already have home basing (except for MIA) and we've already taken a hit on pay for it. To give up something just to keep our home basing would be concessionary and we're not going to do that.

I think you'll find a lot of support for the home basing system from ABX pilots; both those furloughed and still employed. Our negotiators proposed home basing in our current negotiations and the company wanted no part of it.

Would they also expect to keep recall rights in case "the big bucks airline" found an opening for them?

From what I understand, it would be a two-year lock-in. After the lock-in you could choose to return to ABX if your number was recalled.

 

[Flyer8]

You keep talking about ABX pilots quiting to go to ATI, this is for the ABX pilots on FURLOUGH I say again the pilots on FURLOUGH!. No one at ABX currently flying has any desire to work at ATI, lets see quit ABX flying a 767 take a hugh pay cut and fly a DC8. Not going to happen.This sideletter was agreed upon in the event ATI or Capitol happened to be hiring a furloughed pilot could get back to work. And actually the CEO of ATSG Joe Hete is the one who signed off on our contract, this SL and he will be the one you deal with on your contract like it or not.

I understand the furloughed part...Quit was a poor choice of words..I think I was tired and irritated at the time...What I meant to say is that I have never seen a FURLOUGHED PILOT retaining his seniority when being hired by a seperate company with a different union. This side letter was done "behind the curtain" without any conversation between ABX And ATI EXCO's and MEC's.The intent of this letter was not just to put out of work pilots back in a seat,but in a seat with a safety cushion.
I can see Mr.Hete telling Mr. Hobson that FULOUGHED ABX PILOTS should have priority over "off the street" applicants. But telling us that new hire ABX PILOTS have a right to make more money and benefits than recently recalled ATI PILOTS or "off the street" new hires is another story!
I also agree that we are dealing with Mr. Hete on our new contract, but I don't think he can change the hiring, pay, and seniority policies that are currently in our contract. If he can do that,none of our contracts,yours included, are worth the paper they are written on.