AAI/SWA solution

[On Your Six]

I didn't say all of you...but if what your FAB-7 did was not militant then I don't know what is. Keeping the SL-9 and it's details to themselves and not letting the rank and file vote for themselves is as militant as you can possibly get. Just out of respect for your NC, send it to a vote. Shoot you can even not recommend it and still send it for a vote.

Telling Gary that you won't allow postponing arbitration for 6 months is as militant as you can get. SWA MGMNT wants to settle this without arbitration and ALPA isn't letting him, how is that not militant? Knowing that an agreement outside of arbitration will do tons for this "culture", especially since we might have to put up with eachother later...and not allowing that...that's militant. So in the end SWA MGMNT might get fed up and become ATN MGMNT all over again...difference is now there are 6000 pilots that are not on your side. Forano did not have that luxury.

They are following the Process Agreement signed by all parties.


Godspeed!


OYS

 

[ASADFW7]

The AAI/SWA solution that is option 2. Separate operations the AAI group keeps what they have. No windfall, no loss, nothing gained, how does that sound?

 

[737lj]

The AAI/SWA solution that is option 2. Separate operations the AAI group keeps what they have. No windfall, no loss, nothing gained, how does that sound?

I can live with that.

 

[MCDU]

The AAI/SWA solution that is option 2. Separate operations the AAI group keeps what they have. No windfall, no loss, nothing gained, how does that sound?

That is the same solution that would work for USAIR East pilots.

M

 

[redflyer65]

As an outsider I was just wondering how the other groups are doing integrating (FA's, Reservations, etc...)

Not well.

 

[Andy]

How would a SWA guy feel if us AAI guys get relative seniority but we keep our payscale and benefits? You guys keep throwing around how much money we will make but what if this was the case. We get to keep our seniority and there is no huge windfall that you all keep talking about.

I'm not trying to stir the pot or anything, just wanted to get some feedback. Seems like SWA guys only talk about how much money we will make and we talk about our seniority.

So how bout we keep our seniority and we don't get a pay raise?

Keep it nice!

Whipsaw. A split payscale wouldn't be good for either pre-integration SWA or AAI pilots.
This is a nonstarter on many levels. Please allow your 'dark side' to rise from within and you will quickly be able to envision different ways that management could manipulate split payscales. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zW6opMZg6wQ

I could go into detail but check out CAL/UAL. Currently flying is being shifted to the CAL side of the house because it's cheaper. Note that CAL pilots have lower pay and worse work rules than UAL pilots.

PURE BS. Seniority is forever. As long as your company stays flying, the guy behind you in seniority will stay there.

My seniority at UAL is June 2000. It hasn't worked out too well for me - between 9/11 and age 65, my seniority has only bought me a line in the unemployment line BEHIND the guy below me.

Dropping trips while on reserve is a rarity, according to your reserve pilots. I can re-post dozens of posts where SWA pilots are complaining about not being able to drop trips on reserve . . . how no one wants their scraps, except during the leanest months, etc.

This integration will make SWA so overmanned that trip drops will be encouraged for several years to come. I would also expect liberal leaves of absence to be available.

Hang on, pvt. Lee is in the process of switching over to On Your Six.

I've been around this forum for a very long time. Gen Lee and OYS are NOT the same person. Go back in their posting history and you'll see that they are two different people.

You dont get it.

At the bottom of the list, we would be double-commuting to a reserve line. No flexibility.

I've done double commutes. They suck azz.
Where do you live that you'll have to double commute?
I'm in Tucson. If I'm able to get a CAL slot in EWR, I plan on driving to PHX just to avoid a double commute. That's 100+ miles each way but better than having to connect.

Problem is your airline is reducing it's schedule. How do we handle the reduction in block hours from your side? How do we handle WN's growing presence in ATL?

The biggest problem of all is Gary wants the synergies that he paid for when he bought you. You have to SAVE him money, not just not cost him money.

Gup

The AAI drawdown is due to SWA buying them, not in spite of being bought. Huge difference.
And SWA bought AAI to have ATL gates/slots. Those are expensive gates and slots. Want to see some really expensive slots? Read this: http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/transport/article3480029.ece

They are following the Process Agreement signed by all parties.


Godspeed!


OYS

How do you know either side's following the agreement? Have you read it? If you've got a copy of it, PM me because I'd like to read it and weigh in independently.

The AAI/SWA solution that is option 2. Separate operations the AAI group keeps what they have. No windfall, no loss, nothing gained, how does that sound?

That's a fail on multiple levels. Look ahead a few chess moves and see what kind of Pandora's Box you would open with that kind of 'resolution'.

 

[Roomwithaview]

You dont get it.

At the bottom of the list, we would be double-commuting to a reserve line. No flexibility.

Ty (and others) and what you don't seem to get is that your airline was sold. So, everything was sold, your planes, your lines, your gates, your jobs and yes, your seniority.

Those are the cold hard facts of life. Your contract and labor laws are in effect to prevent a total hose job but they are not there to give you some sort of monumental super system seniority at the carrier that acquired you. For some reason, you think so, although I think you are probably smarter than that and are just trying to stay on ALPA talking points.

And that's all it is Ty, talk. Because when it's all said and done there may be an arbitrator ruling and it may be more favorable than your LOA or Kelly may chop the whole thing up and sell it for parts. Both are two very viable possibilities.

Keep singing from that same sheet of music. So far you've turned down about 3 billion dollars from a guy that doesn't toss money around like that. You gave up the two things he needed from you. Speed and cooperation. He knows where to go if he wants cooperation to help the airline make money. Isn't that what you all are always make fun of us for? Because we're such company koolies? Well, I guess we're going to get a chance to see how well it pays off. Not just for us but for the company we had an integral part in making the most successful airline in the world.

 

[Roomwithaview]

EasyDoesIt

You guys aren't even talking about my original post. Nevermind. This board is a waste of time.

I envision your idea as a slippery slope and one SWAPA (per our contract and SL's) want to prevent at all costs. However, since it now looks like the company is not going to be able to obtain their oh so sought after synergies when they wanted to then they may very well come to the union and ask for some sort of relief to our CBA to allow for an alter ego carrier/Regional to operate.

I would expect we might be amenable to that provided it is a temporary deal, benefits SWAPA pilots in the long run and doesn't destroy (long term) the protections we put in our Section One.

So long story short I'm certain it's being discussed.

 

[ASADFW7]

Separate operations is not a long term solution, but it does expose what SWA pilots see. The AAI group wants our contract, and their working environment is going to change with an integration into a bigger company. SWA did this, not SWAPA. The AAI preference is to insulate themselves from the affects of working for a bigger company. SWAPA pilots are already operating in the expanded environment. Commuting across country is something we already have to experience, yet AAI pilots see this basic principle of working for SWA as something that is too large of a change for them. Well the basic environment of flying for a bigger country is that the distance in geographical decisions is greater when bidding and holding a position. No matter what SWA does, the pilot group of AAI is opened up to increased variables for decision making. This fact of life will not change unless the AAI group is fenced out of SWA so they do not have to make those decisions, or exercise new options.

The arguments that the change for AAI is too great is small mans math. The algorithms of this deal including labor are not short sighted, but the thinking of the AAI group mirrors simple math. There is no escaping the integration from a lessor position and the affects of working for a larger employer. Accepting this and making this work for the AAI group takes vision, to date we have not seen a lot of that thinking from the AAI side yet.

Show me where the AAI pilot group has embraced the opportunities of working for a larger company and network. When this happens a better integration solution can be created. Right now it is bad math from both sides.

 

[Skyboy722]

SL9 did not provide that for the AT folks. We were stuck for up to 30 months AFTER SOC with our same contract. NO 6 tfp each day. Reserve would only pay a 75-78 hour guarantee. Commute in for a 5 day stretch and get used for two resulting in 8 hours towards guarantee. Time away from home with no compensation. No improvement in work rules. Flipping of circadium rythms.... bid ams and then get switched to a CDO. Loss of retirement for 3 months. Pay did not become effective until 1 April. Promise of reserve for 10+ years. These are just some of the glaring issues with SL9.

Isn't this what you are bringing to this so called "merger"? So your contract that you bring to this deal is a "glaring issue with SL9"?

Feeling a little entitled?

 

[puddlejumper101]

They are following the Process Agreement signed by all parties.


Godspeed!


OYS

not to feed the troll, but if your boss comes to you and asks for an extension...to make things better possibly...to keep outsiders from messing with your internal stuff why not allow it? Whether they are following the agreement or not it really shows there is a militant motivation here. Going to arbitration is something all parties involved should avoid, but you being a Delta pilot with ALPA being your union...whose side would you be on??

 

[ASADFW7]

AAI does not have the SWA CBA, they are not yet SWAPA pilots. They are ALPA pilots, and they are working under their own negotiated contract. It is not as mature and productive as the SWAPA contract. If the two groups can come to an agreement perhaps that will change, and they will become SWAPA pilots quicker. The AIP did have SWAPA pay rates per hour that were approximately $218 an hour for their captains. I guess that counts for little in contrast to the lessor AAI CBA compared to the SWAPA CBA.

 

[dicko]

before SL-9 I used to feel bad for ATN guys dealing with Forano and his MGMNT team, but after seeing this SL-9 collapse and the way the ATN ALPA MEC has behaved, I am starting to think Forano and MGMNT might not have been as bad as previously thought. At one point MGMNT might have tried, but your union guys probably gave MGMNT the finger enough where they eventually said F$%^ the pilots.

Why was ATN MGMNT so bad to their people??? Was it because that was their style, or was it that they got tired of dealing with the militant types over there? Things that make you go HMMMM..................

Actually you're now thinking exactly like him; 'If they wont agree to what I want I'll bend them over'.

 

[Roomwithaview]

I disagree that the pilot group was ever to blame for the poor treatment from management. You treat your employees like crap and beat them down for years with sub-standard pay and work rules while they are busting their humps for you-What did MGT expect? 97% strike vote! You don't get that from a group of guys that are militant and hard over for no reason at all.

However, fast forward to this deal and it appears the AAI MEC leadership has now decided to use the same tactic and harbor the same ill feelings towards their new employer and the pilots that outnumber them 5-1 who are also trying to put them on our CBA. So far I count at least two F-U's from the MEC. Also consider that they sent the WGAC to Dallas to negotiate for them in good faith and then promptly jerked Mr. Kelly and swapa around forcing the situation to where it is now.

We're not the enemy. Neither is SWA.

 

[dicko]

Separate operations is not a long term solution, but it does expose what SWA pilots see. The AAI group wants our contract, and their working environment is going to change with an integration into a bigger company. SWA did this, not SWAPA. The AAI preference is to insulate themselves from the affects of working for a bigger company. SWAPA pilots are already operating in the expanded environment. Commuting across country is something we already have to experience, yet AAI pilots see this basic principle of working for SWA as something that is too large of a change for them. Well the basic environment of flying for a bigger country is that the distance in geographical decisions is greater when bidding and holding a position. No matter what SWA does, the pilot group of AAI is opened up to increased variables for decision making.

You've made an interesting point. 65-70% of AirTran pilots already commute. The seniority fence in Atlanta made that number far greater.

The senior pilots who don't live in base would scrabble into the base. Pushing the junior who live in the base, out of the base. Now everybody is commuting.

The concept of the protected ATL forced;

1. SWA Mgt. into a base that was larger than financially ideal,

2. Kept SWA pilots who live there, or wanted to bid there out,

3. Forced the senior AirTran who don't live there in, and

4. Forced the junior who do live there out.

 

[Ty Webb]

You've made an interesting point. 65-70% of AirTran pilots already commute. The seniority fence in Atlanta made that number far greater.

The senior pilots who don't live in base would scrabble into the base. Pushing the junior who live in the base, out of the base. Now everybody is commuting.

The concept of the protected ATL forced;

1. SWA Mgt. into a base that was larger than financially ideal,

2. Kept SWA pilots who live there, or wanted to bid there out,

3. Forced the senior AirTran who don't live there in, and

4. Forced the junior who do live there out.

Yup. That's what many of us have been saying. There has to be a better solution for both groups than what was proposed. It doesn't have to cost any more money to the company, but the results could be less harmful to BOTH groups.

 

[WildcatFan]

I, too, get tired of hearing about the money. Money doesn't buy time at home. When you're on reserve for a decade, the money doesn't give you your life back.

When I flew corporate jets, I flew plenty of people who were worth tens or hundreds of millions. I also saw a lot of screwed up kids . . . . Kids who needed their Dad to be home more, instead of out chasing the almighty dollar.

I am assuming then that for you AT guys that since money isnt important you are willing to forgo any Captain upgrades? Why not just stay at the first job you held? The vast majority of airline pilots upgrade when they can even though it results in crushing seniority loss. I wonder why?

Another question: If SWA pilots could flip a switch and kill the enitire acquisition, call the whole thing off, we would in a heartbeat. It is a hypothetical sure, but the question is would you? You would keep what you have, go back to negotiating your sect6 and preparing for strike without having SWA "interfere." I think the answer would be telling. In fact, if GK went to your group last summer pre-buyout and granted unconditional offers of employment right to the bottom of our list many AT pilots would have left in droves.

 

[redflyer65]

Another question: If SWA pilots could flip a switch and kill the enitire acquisition, call the whole thing off, we would in a heartbeat. It is a hypothetical sure, but the question is would you? You would keep what you have, go back to negotiating your sect6 and preparing for strike without having SWA "interfere." I think the answer would be telling. In fact, if GK went to your group last summer pre-buyout and granted unconditional offers of employment right to the bottom of our list many AT pilots would have left in droves.

Ohhh, the hindsight.

But absolutely correct.

RF

 

[Just thinking]

"Isn't this what you are bringing to this so called "merger"? So your contract that you bring to this deal is a "glaring issue with SL9"?

Feeling a little entitled?"...................

That was not the intent of my response. I was responding to posts that AT pilots were gaining many of the work rules and scheduling improvements that SWA pilots working under. It seemed to me that many SWA pilots believe that SL9 was bringing their contract to the AT pilots.

I do not feel entitled.

I will patiently wait for a negotiated/mediated or arbitrated decision. Many of the things that have happened in my life have been way outside my sphere of influence. Challenges will always be around the next corner. I focus on the things that I can improve upon. I work to be productive while I am away from my family. I take care of the customers and crew. My post was an effort to bring to light some of the short comings that SL9 posed for the AT pilot group.

 

[General Lee]

When someone is using pay scales and money to justify anything in this business, I'll point to UAL/Delta/USAirways pay scales on September 10, 2001 and then point them to pay scales on August 31, 2011, and invite them to enjoy annual pay snapshots every year since then.

No dog in this fight though...

How about management payscales?


Bye Bye--General Lee