AA/USAir non SLI?

[MCDU]

Lots of 2013 new hires are hoping for a 3 way relative slotting. Many feel that they should go ahead of 2004 and 2005 AWA pilots since many are in the same relative position as the PHX based division.

M

 

[Guppiedriver]

The vote was a mere formality? Certainly the MOU would have passed even if every pilot in the West class had voted against it... So why vote 98% for a mew seniority integration agreement that moves us past the stalemate with the company, and then sue. You agreed to the contingent change, making it much more difficult to argue that the contingent change is harmful to you.

Please explain how the MOU does anything to solve the east/west seniority debacle.

The APA indicated in their legal hotline that they would rather stay out of the east/west battle and that they hope that our seniority issue is resolved before APA/USAPA engage in SLI discussions. Why would they say that if the MOU moves us past the east/west problem?

APA Legal Update

This past month, your APA General Counsel has received three letters from Marty Harper, attorney for a class of former America West pilots who have threatened legal action in the event that APA does not recognize the decision by Arbitrator George Nicolau regarding the US Airways-America West seniority integration list. Mr. Harper sent similar letters to counsel for US Airways and counsel for the US Airline Pilots Association (USAPA).

These letters threaten legal action on the basis that the seniority list finalized in arbitration (“Nicolau Award”) between the former America West (“West”) and the US Airways (“East”) pilots was to go into effect upon the date of ratification of a single collective bargaining agreement involving the West and East pilots, all of whom are currently represented by USAPA. Mr. Harper contends that the Memorandum of Understanding/Merger Transition Agreement (MOU/MTA) that American, US Airways, USAPA and APA signed concerning the potential merger constitutes a single collective bargaining agreement between East and West, and therefore the failure to include the Nicolau Award in an integrated seniority list would constitute a breach of USAPA’s duty of fair representation to the pilots it represents. During the past few years, this matter has been intensively litigated among the East and West pilots and US Airways. One aspect of the case is currently on appeal to the United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit. In response to the various letters from Mr. Harper on behalf of the West pilots, USAPA has filed what is known as an Adversary Proceeding in the Bankruptcy Court seeking to enjoin the West pilots from contesting the merger. In response to this lawsuit, the West pilots filed a complaint on March 7 against USAPA and US Airways, Inc. seeking to have a court declare that the Nicolau Award be enforced. They indicated that they intend to file for expedited injunctive relief. APA takes no position on the merits of the dispute between the former East and former West pilots. However, APA has no wish to inherit this dispute in the event of a merger and will push to have it resolved between Mr. Harper’s group and USAPA. Importantly, the seniority integration process in which APA will take part in the event of a merger has not even begun; this timeline is only triggered by the date of American Airline’s exit from bankruptcy (“effective date”), which is determined by the court’s approval of the plan of reorganization (“POR”).

The process is as follows: within 30 days of the effective date of the merger, the timeline for the seniority integration process will begin. APA and USAPA will negotiate and approve a seniority integration protocol agreement that will establish the rules of engagement for the upcoming integration negotiations process. Within 90 days of the effective date, direct negotiations between the two unions will begin. If after 90 days of the effective date there is no agreement on an integrated seniority list, a panel of three arbitrators will be selected under the McCaskill-Bond statute to seek an arbitrated solution. Within 60 days of the arbitration panel being selected, but not before approval of a new joint collective bargaining agreement, the seniority arbitration will commence. The MOU stipulates that the conclusion of seniority integration must be completed within 24 months of the effective date. While we do not yet have an effective date regarding the bankruptcy POR, the expectation is that a POR will be submitted and approved sometime during the third quarter of this year, which will likely mean that we will not have an integrated seniority list for at least 24 to 30 months from today. Until that time, both parties will abide by the specific seniority protections specified in the MOU/MTA.

In summary, due to the lengthy seniority integration timeline that hasn’t yet begun, as well as the numerous factors involved in the court’s approval of a POR, it is far too early for APA to comment on the effect of arbitrating the seniority integration issue based on the seniority lists put forth by USAPA and the West pilots. In the end it is our hope that this issue will be resolved to both parties’ satisfaction so that we can proceed to finding a mutually acceptable solution to a joint integrated seniority list.​

​

 

[General Lee]

I think I just heard Turtle21 poop in his shell.....


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Lots of 2013 new hires are hoping for a 3 way relative slotting. Many feel that they should go ahead of 2004 and 2005 AWA pilots since many are in the same relative position as the PHX based division.

M

Sorry M, but in EVERY SLI done with arbitrators, newhires were always stapled, especially those after the merger was announced (back in 2005?). In the DL/NWA merger, the arbitrators placed the bottom 300 guys at DL on the list since they were hired after the merger was announced. All you guys have to do now is ABIDE by the next SLI, which will undoubtably include the NIC. Sorry!



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[abefly]

Please explain how the MOU does anything to solve the east/west seniority debacle.


[/INDENT]

The MOU is a complete CBA for the west and east. We will all be under the same contract on the POR.

10.h in the MOU is the companies neutral way of getting the east to vote for the MOU fully knowing the west would sue after the vote.

The company and usapa both sold the MOU as being seniority neutral. That is because seniority was completed in 2006. 98 percent of the west voted for this contract because it will be the final step of the transition agreement. The TA will never go away until the contract is fully implemented.

Even if it is too soon and the judge says that the doh list has to be implemented enforce the case is ripe, that does not change the fact that there will be a ripe case. My guess is this is the final straw for USAPA.

Anyone who would like to get educated read the companies briefs and see how neutral they really are. Now they are involved for what could be billions of
dollars in damages. So keep spitting out 98 percent and whatever crap you can. The realization will set in real soon.

 

[Guppiedriver]

The MOU is a complete CBA for the west and east. We will all be under the same contract on the POR.

10.h in the MOU is the companies neutral way of getting the east to vote for the MOU fully knowing the west would sue after the vote.

The company and usapa both sold the MOU as being seniority neutral. That is because seniority was completed in 2006. 98 percent of the west voted for this contract because it will be the final step of the transition agreement. The TA will never go away until the contract is fully implemented.

Even if it is too soon and the judge says that the doh list has to be implemented enforce the case is ripe, that does not change the fact that there will be a ripe case. My guess is this is the final straw for USAPA.

Anyone who would like to get educated read the companies briefs and see how neutral they really are. Now they are involved for what could be billions of
dollars in damages. So keep spitting out 98 percent and whatever crap you can. The realization will set in real soon.

I understand that point. Turtle is implying that we voted in a new and improved SLI process for the east and the west. He's wrong....it's a process to integrate US (Nic) and AA.

 

[slaquer5]

Can anyone, even turtle, please tell me what seniority list your going to give APA.

I am sure that is all APA cares about.

 

[Flybywire44]

17,245

 

[General Lee]

17,245

This is how people respond when they know they can't debate me. They have LOST. Listen Third Lister, the NIC award will prevail, and then you will fly with those Westies and claim "I didn't mean it, the Easties were warping my brain.......I was a hostage of their crazy thoughts in my tin cage on the 734 doing the late night CLT to SYR run....."


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Can anyone, even turtle, please tell me what seniority list your going to give APA.

I am sure that is all APA cares about.

From the above post, the APA stated officially:



"APA takes no position on the merits of the dispute between the former East and former West pilots. However, APA has no wish to inherit this dispute in the event of a merger and will push to have it resolved between Mr. Harper’s group and USAPA."



How would it be resolved? Sounds like the Westies want the NIC, and the Creditors want this over with, and will push USAPA to accept it. Otherwise, it appears NO DEAL. This is gonna get good. I can't wait to watch third lister reaction especially.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[TWA Dude]

Can anyone, even turtle, please tell me what seniority list your going to give APA.

The short answer is no. But this isn't rocket surgery. Everyone knows USAPA wants to present it's wet-dream doh list and unless compelled to do otherwise it will.

 

[slaquer5]

The short answer is no. But this isn't rocket surgery. Everyone knows USAPA wants to present it's wet-dream doh list and unless compelled to do otherwise it will.

Thanks for answering .




Another question


Say USAPA does give APA a hand made USAPA list. I would think APA would not want to use a list that goes against what a judge ruled .


In other words , I would think APA would demand a list that is federal approved .

 

[Turtle21]

Can anyone, even turtle, please tell me what seniority list your going to give APA.

I am sure that is all APA cares about.

There is no court anywhere that has said USAPA is enjoined to bargain with any list other than the one they choose, according to their own careful consideration of what is best for all pilots (and the West class is bound by court order to but out until it is over). Not ripe for judicial intervention. That would harm the free bargaining rights and responsibilities of the bargaining agent.

The APA and USAPA, at the POR, will establish the protocol they think is best for all pilots, and then they can agree on a new integrated list or they then punt to an arbitrator. There is nothing to favor the use of the Nic other than loud threats.. according to any lawyer's advice... If you have the facts argue the facts, if not, scream like h_ll. The company has attempted to console them by saying "everyone's voice will be heard."

To say what USAPA and APA will actually do is speculative at best and there are still unknown contingencies that will occur before the SLI is completed and incorporated into a final contract, but there is plenty left to scream about.

 

[Turtle21]

Thanks for answering .




Another question


Say USAPA does give APA a hand made USAPA list. I would think APA would not want to use a list that goes against what a judge ruled .


In other words , I would think APA would demand a list that is federal approved .

Why would APA accept (or why would USAPA offer) any list that doesn't account for why each pilot is in their current position, exactly according to their awarded bids?

 

[abefly]

There is no court anywhere that has said USAPA is enjoined to bargain with any list other than the one they choose, according to their own careful consideration of what is best for all pilots (and the West class is bound by court order to but out until it is over). Not ripe for judicial intervention. That would harm the free bargaining rights and responsibilities of the bargaining agent.

The APA and USAPA, at the POR, will establish the protocol they think is best for all pilots, and then they can agree on a new integrated list or they then punt to an arbitrator. There is nothing to favor the use of the Nic other than loud threats.. according to any lawyer's advice... If you have the facts argue the facts, if not, scream like h_ll. The company has attempted to console them by saying "everyone's voice will be heard."

To say what USAPA and APA will actually do is speculative at best and there are still unknown contingencies that will occur before the SLI is completed and incorporated into a final contract, but there is plenty left to scream about.

Do you still believe in unicorns, Santa, and the tooth fairy as well? You can't fix stupid

 

[Turtle21]

Do you still believe in unicorns, Santa, and the tooth fairy as well? You can't fix stupid

Why would APA accept (or why would USAPA offer) any list that doesn't account for why each pilot is in their current position, exactly according to their awarded bids?

Do you have an answer?

We all know some of the West posters are rabidly persuaded that USAPA is stupid and will do everything they can to harm poor children across the whole earth.

If you have something other than insults..

 

[abefly]

Do you have an answer?

We all know some of the West posters are rabidly persuaded that USAPA is stupid and will do everything they can to harm poor children across the whole earth.

If you have something other than insults..

Yes I do have an answer. Click here for your answer.

Also if you want the facts can also click here.

APA will not accept anything. It is not up to them to decide anything.

There will be an arbitration under M/B with The Us Airways single seniority list and the American seniority list.

 

[abefly]

" In the past, USAPA has also argued that unless it repudiates the Nicolau Award it cannot get the East Pilot majority to ratify a new CBA"

"Judge Wake properly rejected impasse as illegitimate because an individual’s wrongful intransigence cannot justify yielding to that intransigence.​

​

​

​

Id. (holding, “the socalled impasse could not, as a matter of law, justify USAPA’s actions toward the West Pilots and the Nicolau Award”)."
​

"Regardless, impasse is no longer an issue. MOU ratification was the East Pilots’ last opportunity to be intransigent, to block a CBA that used the Nicolau Award. (SOF ¶ 92.) No further pilot ratification is required in the course of the pending merger with American Airlines.​

Id. USAPA, therefore, can no longer claim that there is an impasse."
​

"Because all material contract terms are now fixed by the ratified MOU, nothing can occur that might create a hypothetical justification for repudiating the Nicolau Award. Ripeness, therefore, is no longer an issue"​

 

[Turtle21]

Yes I do have an answer. Click here for your answer.

Also if you want the facts can also click here.

APA will not accept anything. It is not up to them to decide anything.

There will be an arbitration under M/B with The Us Airways single seniority list and the American seniority list.

Certainly it's your right to ask the court to give you something beyond what you were given by the company in the MOU, but that did not answer the question.

 

[slaquer5]

Why would APA accept (or why would USAPA offer) any list that doesn't account for why each pilot is in their current position, exactly according to their awarded bids?

That is my question. Why would APA accept,and use, any list that is not the final said list.

I would think APA would want to stay out of USAir/ AWA fight.

I also do not think it would be in APAs best interest, to send everything(AA/USair/ AWA) to an arbitrator .

APA needs to take care of the AA pilots first. Hence, they need a final list from the new USair, before they can even start any integration .