Dornier 335
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AA/US ISL question
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Bringupthebird
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Has anyone let you in on the little secret that they would have had those upgrades anyhow AND been on a better contract from which they could have negotiated a vastly superior MOU than we got?
You morons never get tired of chasing after the cardboard dog bone do ya?
USAPA Men of Brilliance.
uke:
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Has anyone let you in on the little secret that they would have had those upgrades anyhow AND been on a better contract from which they could have negotiated a vastly superior MOU than we got?
You morons never get tired of chasing after the cardboard dog bone do ya?
USAPA Men of Brilliance.
Well if there was a combined seniority list in use, obviously the West pilots would have taken a lot of those spots. So the upgrades may have still been there, just not as many for the East pilots, which is where the attrition came from to generate the numerous upgrades currently happening. So USAPA has kept the East attrition on the East, and the West attrition on the West. Which is all the East wanted to begin with. But the West's hard stance of Nic or nothing, well, has left the West with basically nothing...
Btw, see how easy it is to engage in a civil debate/discussion without resorting to name calling? I guess that just makes some people feel better though. No worries.
Bringupthebird
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Very subjective and cannot be proved. How many YEARS did TWA report multi-million dollar losses EVERY quarter and still operated? like 6 or 7? It's all in how the books are written. Would US Airways have liquidated without the merger with AWA? Quite possibly. Would AWA have liquidated without the merger? Also quite possibly. We will never know.
So if you were to save a rich man from a tragic death, do you deserve all his money? I mean if you hadn't saved him, he would have no money as he would be dead. But you did save him, so is his money then rightfully yours? Just curious... I mean the East had all the attrition. You feel you saved us and therefore all the East attrition should belong to the West right?
waveflyer
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Do you know what loa 93 was?
Not just the rates, the work rules were damn near nonexistent. Normally, I would not be impressed with AW+3%_ but when loa 93 is dragging everyone down?? Yeah, you keep the process going and see what you can get
Well if there was a combined seniority list in use, obviously the West pilots would have taken a lot of those spots. So the upgrades may have still been there, just not as many for the East pilots, which is where the attrition came from to generate the numerous upgrades currently happening. So USAPA has kept the East attrition on the East, and the West attrition on the West. Which is all the East wanted to begin with. But the West's hard stance of Nic or nothing, well, has left the West with basically nothing...
Btw, see how easy it is to engage in a civil debate/discussion without resorting to name calling? I guess that just makes some people feel better though. No worries.
ALGFLYR
Why are you trying to give a sensible detailed factual explanation to some of these fanatical Westies? It is like trying to have a conversation with someone who is very emotional and cannot think logically - they only scream and have a tantrum and insult you.
By the way - on a positive note - quite a few former west guys believe it is time to move on as they realize the chance of NIC is pretty much dead, but now I am trying to be too much like your thoughtful process.
Metrojet
Bringupthebird
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No, it is more like the poor man (an airline that cannot make payroll is in no way considered "rich") demanding a transfusion from the rescuer until the rescuer is dead.
For the 1000th time - you did not save us
Your CEO facilitated a leveraged merger with the help of Wall Street
Enjoying my A330 upgrade. Have fun in AZ...Has anyone let you in on the little secret that they would have had those upgrades anyhow AND been on a better contract from which they could have negotiated a vastly superior MOU than we got?
You morons never get tired of chasing after the cardboard dog bone do ya?
USAPA Men of Brilliance.
Apparently that leveraged buyout did, in fact, keep east from shutting down. There is and has always been a lot of denial that came out of USAPA.
Bringupthebird
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No, you enjoy eternal reserve. I'll bet you bid down eventually to what your joint seniority can hold, junior.
Guppiedriver
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Name one westie that is ready to move on.
Bringupthebird
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Especially since it is USAPA that is dead, not the NIC.
USAPA always had the ability to control the tenor and tone of this disagreement and always had the ability to present a real solution. The east pilots allowed them, no encouraged them through repeated affirmative votes, to continue to salt the earth between two groups that most mature observers agree needed each other.
So the west moves on only as a result of the APA taking over and disarming USAPA, but it does so with open eyes. USAPA is no longer in a position to influence the direction it will be taken, regardless of their threats and tantrums.
And this is something of which no east pilot can be proud.
If I were a junior west first officer and wanted to upgrade / and / or get out of PHX - the best opportunity is for a SLI as soon as possible - so if the threat of a DFR wasn't there / or a uniform release from aol to APA - that would be my quickest way out. That means that NIC won't be either on the shelf or semi doa until / if (and that is a BIG UNTIL or IF ) removed from the SLI.
But, we on the EAST can wait until MB integration of east / west / APA.
Your choice
Metrojet
"The real solution"? - yeah - lets give up 25+ years of attrition , so pilots hired 15+ years later get all the upgrades!
Yeah - I am sure that is the solution that APA is going to agree too also
Must be some secret negotiations going on
Metrojet
Guppiedriver
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Okay, you gave us "your" solution, but I still need names of the westies that are ready to move on. How many will it take to get AOL to stand down?
Isn't this what you meant to say? "But, we on the EAST are happy that uSAPa is doing every thing they can to delay the MB integration of east / west / APA."
With the Nic award the east was still going to get 2/3's (probably more) of the combined airlines' attrition...but that wasn't good enough for you, was it?
Ah - I see
AOL would have settled for 33.3 % of Captain upgrades at "former east bases"?
Well - how many PHX upgrades were we going to get in return?
Since our merger - I can count on maybe both hands - the amount of pilots on the East who felt they were entitled to PHX CAP. Now how many of the West feel they are entitled to EAST CAP?
Just curious - how many West folks feel they should be narrow body CAP at current AA bases as well? It is really the same argument you could make now, if I were former West
Correction to the above - how many feel they should be wide body CAP at current AA bases?
No flame intended here - just having an exchange of information
Metrojet
Guppiedriver
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Not one west pilot was responsible for the outcome of our SLI. I dont know how many west pilots would have taken an east coast upgrade, but I bet it wouldn't have been any more than the number of easties taking slots in PHX. I guess we'll never know.
After the fences come down, I think that you should be able to hold what ever position that your seniority allows you...whether you had that A/C on your property before the merger or not. A merger creates a new airline and every employee should benefit from the combination.
After the fences come down, I think that you should be able to hold what ever position that your seniority allows you...whether you had that A/C on your property before the merger or not. A merger creates a new airline and every employee should benefit from the combination.
General Lee
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Metro jet will never understand that. Both sides agreed to the arbitrator, and he came up with a binding award that one side didn't like. They acted like complete babies, and now third listers get the benefits of earlier upgrades. It's a sad fact, and one that needs to be corrected sooner than later, and it will be.
Bye Bye---General Lee
Well, we were having a pretty decent conversation ( before the General came back ) ha ha
I agree that we should ALL benefit from the combined airline - and some will more than others solely because of age and years left. And some folks will always be unhappy - even when they upgrade and are already making more money. In any event - I think most of us (east / west / AA ) want a SLI that will give us flexibility in order to improve our quality of life ( and everyone has their own agenda ) and not harm others in doing so.
Metrojet
Guppiedriver
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AOL does not have the authority to decide how many captain seats are acceptable. AOL was formed to protect the Nicolau Award and that is it. If the founding members of AOL decide to withdraw from the seniority battle, I still don't think this conundrum would end. I believe that any individual can file suit if uSAPa decided to implement their DOH list.
As far as I can tell, there are only two ways out of this mess: 1) uSAPa decides to honor the agreements of the former bargaining agent. -or- 2)The courts make an iron clad ruling that 9th is not willing to undo.
It's possible that once then NMB rules in favor of SCS that the APA can fix this clusterf@ck by assigning three independent committees to represent the interest of each group.
As far as I can tell, there are only two ways out of this mess: 1) uSAPa decides to honor the agreements of the former bargaining agent. -or- 2)The courts make an iron clad ruling that 9th is not willing to undo.
It's possible that once then NMB rules in favor of SCS that the APA can fix this clusterf@ck by assigning three independent committees to represent the interest of each group.
General Lee
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The truth hurts obviously Metro. You can't debate a binding award that you agreed to abide beforehand. Do you take your money back at a casino after you lose it in blackjack? Yeah, sure you do... Debate that.
Bye Bye---General Lee
Carl S.
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Every East pilot on the property since 2007 has left at least $250k on the table to delay an ISL thru lost wages and work rules at a minimum. One side can not force it's will on the other thru illegal tactics and here we are with APA to about to pull a USapa on Usapa. East pilots want what they brought to the table and what we brought to the table on their terms only, hence our stale mate. The Only person I am competing with is myself to have a great life and the angry FO club is running the show out east with third listers jumping on for some hate. The West is not giving in, get ready to form your own groups out east to fight APA, karma is a bit*h. 2.45% for the worst union in airline history that only got delay from the truth that you overplayed your worth in an arbitration.
Bringupthebird
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east/west/APA?? What member of the small club of arbitrators is going to say about one of their own respected members, "Nicolau really got this one messed up. We better start from scratch." No, they know better and realized that incorporating the work of Nicolau is a no-risk proposition. They know they are charged only with integrating US and AA and everything else is outside the scope of their responsibility. There is not now, nor has their ever been a compelling reason to not utilize the Nicolau list. USAPA has been allowed the luxury of delay in order to avoid the consequences of a DFR and this luxury has been given them by the east pilots.
No actions permanently avoid consequences. I suppose time will tell how those responsible will be held to account. The east pilots have chosen to cut themselves off on an ice flow and then build a celebration bonfire.
No actions permanently avoid consequences. I suppose time will tell how those responsible will be held to account. The east pilots have chosen to cut themselves off on an ice flow and then build a celebration bonfire.
Bringupthebird
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Metro, I hope you're prepared to handle the rage that will consume you when you wake up and realize how horribly you misunderstand the whole issue and how you have been played by a small group who thirsted for power at any cost.
Turtle21
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That right there is funny.... the thought that APA can unilaterally fix what two former unions couldn't.
MB will fix it. Cheers.
Turtle21
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Who cares? Pilots will waste money in the courts until the end of time.
Name one union that ever ran scared from members ranting about lawsuits... and AOL is the last group to run from... they have wasted $millions and can't win a rubber duck. They don't know the law and have tried to enforce their own implicit assumptions from the beginning. Negotiations are negotiations, but MB is law. MB will fix it, and yahoos will probably still pay lawyers for figments.
Bringupthebird
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When your desperate fellow east pilots threaten to publish a list of those who haven't paid for their fair share of the legal defense after they sue to block implementation of the M-B (AKA the Nic/APA) list, will you have the courage to call them yahoos, or will you be the one publishing the "weak sister" list?
Don't tell me you've forgotten the crew room shakedowns that yielded the cards (albeit of questionable validity) that went to the NMB in your little childish "coffin". Ironically your careers were kept in a crypt from that day forward until Feb 2013 because of that same childish behavior.
Don't tell me you've forgotten the crew room shakedowns that yielded the cards (albeit of questionable validity) that went to the NMB in your little childish "coffin". Ironically your careers were kept in a crypt from that day forward until Feb 2013 because of that same childish behavior.
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