AA/US ISL question

[Dornier 335]

I wonder what I am doing wrong, I'm trying to sell my old ALPA luggage tag for $500, but no luck! Any suggestions?

 

[Bringupthebird]

Of course hundreds of those FO's have recently upgraded to Captain positions with a lot more upgrades coming soon... the attrition train has just begun...

Has anyone let you in on the little secret that they would have had those upgrades anyhow AND been on a better contract from which they could have negotiated a vastly superior MOU than we got?

You morons never get tired of chasing after the cardboard dog bone do ya?

USAPA Men of Brilliance. uke:

 

[ALGFLYR]

Has anyone let you in on the little secret that they would have had those upgrades anyhow AND been on a better contract from which they could have negotiated a vastly superior MOU than we got?

You morons never get tired of chasing after the cardboard dog bone do ya?

USAPA Men of Brilliance. uke:

Well if there was a combined seniority list in use, obviously the West pilots would have taken a lot of those spots. So the upgrades may have still been there, just not as many for the East pilots, which is where the attrition came from to generate the numerous upgrades currently happening. So USAPA has kept the East attrition on the East, and the West attrition on the West. Which is all the East wanted to begin with. But the West's hard stance of Nic or nothing, well, has left the West with basically nothing...

Btw, see how easy it is to engage in a civil debate/discussion without resorting to name calling? I guess that just makes some people feel better though. No worries.

 

[Bringupthebird]

If there had been no merger, then I suppose you would have had your attrition. Which would have been sudden and complete and would have involved no upgrades - quite the opposite.

What names have not been earned or deserved?

 

[ALGFLYR]

If there had been no merger, then I suppose you would have had your attrition.

Very subjective and cannot be proved. How many YEARS did TWA report multi-million dollar losses EVERY quarter and still operated? like 6 or 7? It's all in how the books are written. Would US Airways have liquidated without the merger with AWA? Quite possibly. Would AWA have liquidated without the merger? Also quite possibly. We will never know.

So if you were to save a rich man from a tragic death, do you deserve all his money? I mean if you hadn't saved him, he would have no money as he would be dead. But you did save him, so is his money then rightfully yours? Just curious... I mean the East had all the attrition. You feel you saved us and therefore all the East attrition should belong to the West right?

 

[waveflyer]

You think America West rates + 3% is a big raise?

Do you know what loa 93 was?

Not just the rates, the work rules were damn near nonexistent. Normally, I would not be impressed with AW+3%_ but when loa 93 is dragging everyone down?? Yeah, you keep the process going and see what you can get

 

[Metrojet]

Well if there was a combined seniority list in use, obviously the West pilots would have taken a lot of those spots. So the upgrades may have still been there, just not as many for the East pilots, which is where the attrition came from to generate the numerous upgrades currently happening. So USAPA has kept the East attrition on the East, and the West attrition on the West. Which is all the East wanted to begin with. But the West's hard stance of Nic or nothing, well, has left the West with basically nothing...

Btw, see how easy it is to engage in a civil debate/discussion without resorting to name calling? I guess that just makes some people feel better though. No worries.

ALGFLYR

Why are you trying to give a sensible detailed factual explanation to some of these fanatical Westies? It is like trying to have a conversation with someone who is very emotional and cannot think logically - they only scream and have a tantrum and insult you.

By the way - on a positive note - quite a few former west guys believe it is time to move on as they realize the chance of NIC is pretty much dead, but now I am trying to be too much like your thoughtful process.

Metrojet

 

[Bringupthebird]

So if you were to save a rich man from a tragic death, do you deserve all his money?

No, it is more like the poor man (an airline that cannot make payroll is in no way considered "rich") demanding a transfusion from the rescuer until the rescuer is dead.

 

[Metrojet]

No, it is more like the poor man (an airline that cannot make payroll is in no way considered "rich") demanding a transfusion from the rescuer until the rescuer is dead.

For the 1000th time - you did not save us

Your CEO facilitated a leveraged merger with the help of Wall Street

 

[Metrojet]

No, it is more like the poor man (an airline that cannot make payroll is in no way considered "rich") demanding a transfusion from the rescuer until the rescuer is dead.

I am sure that all the American pilots thank you for saving them as well

 

[sean67]

Has anyone let you in on the little secret that they would have had those upgrades anyhow AND been on a better contract from which they could have negotiated a vastly superior MOU than we got?

You morons never get tired of chasing after the cardboard dog bone do ya?

USAPA Men of Brilliance. uke:

Enjoying my A330 upgrade. Have fun in AZ...

 

[Dan Roman]

For the 1000th time - you did not save us

Your CEO facilitated a leveraged merger with the help of Wall Street

Apparently that leveraged buyout did, in fact, keep east from shutting down. There is and has always been a lot of denial that came out of USAPA.

 

[Bringupthebird]

Enjoying my A330 upgrade. Have fun in AZ...

No, you enjoy eternal reserve. I'll bet you bid down eventually to what your joint seniority can hold, junior.

 

[Guppiedriver]

By the way - on a positive note - quite a few former west guys believe it is time to move on as they realize the chance of NIC is pretty much dead,

Metrojet

Name one westie that is ready to move on.

 

[Bringupthebird]

Name one westie that is ready to move on.

Especially since it is USAPA that is dead, not the NIC.

USAPA always had the ability to control the tenor and tone of this disagreement and always had the ability to present a real solution. The east pilots allowed them, no encouraged them through repeated affirmative votes, to continue to salt the earth between two groups that most mature observers agree needed each other.

So the west moves on only as a result of the APA taking over and disarming USAPA, but it does so with open eyes. USAPA is no longer in a position to influence the direction it will be taken, regardless of their threats and tantrums.

And this is something of which no east pilot can be proud.

 

[Metrojet]

Name one westie that is ready to move on.

If I were a junior west first officer and wanted to upgrade / and / or get out of PHX - the best opportunity is for a SLI as soon as possible - so if the threat of a DFR wasn't there / or a uniform release from aol to APA - that would be my quickest way out. That means that NIC won't be either on the shelf or semi doa until / if (and that is a BIG UNTIL or IF ) removed from the SLI.

But, we on the EAST can wait until MB integration of east / west / APA.

Your choice

Metrojet

 

[Metrojet]

Especially since it is USAPA that is dead, not the NIC.

USAPA always had the ability to control the tenor and tone of this disagreement and always had the ability to present a real solution. The east pilots allowed them, no encouraged them through repeated affirmative votes, to continue to salt the earth between two groups that most mature observers agree needed each other.

So the west moves on only as a result of the APA taking over and disarming USAPA, but it does so with open eyes. USAPA is no longer in a position to influence the direction it will be taken, regardless of their threats and tantrums.

And this is something of which no east pilot can be proud.

"The real solution"? - yeah - lets give up 25+ years of attrition , so pilots hired 15+ years later get all the upgrades!

Yeah - I am sure that is the solution that APA is going to agree too also
Must be some secret negotiations going on

Metrojet

 

[Guppiedriver]

If I were a junior west first officer and wanted to upgrade / and / or get out of PHX - the best opportunity is for a SLI as soon as possible - so if the threat of a DFR wasn't there / or a uniform release from aol to APA - that would be my quickest way out. That means that NIC won't be either on the shelf or semi doa until / if (and that is a BIG UNTIL or IF ) removed from the SLI.

But, we on the EAST can wait until MB integration of east / west / APA.

Your choice

Metrojet

"The real solution"? - yeah - lets give up 25+ years of attrition , so pilots hired 15+ years later get all the upgrades!

Yeah - I am sure that is the solution that APA is going to agree too also
Must be some secret negotiations going on

Metrojet

Okay, you gave us "your" solution, but I still need names of the westies that are ready to move on. How many will it take to get AOL to stand down?

Isn't this what you meant to say? "But, we on the EAST are happy that uSAPa is doing every thing they can to delay the MB integration of east / west / APA."

With the Nic award the east was still going to get 2/3's (probably more) of the combined airlines' attrition...but that wasn't good enough for you, was it?

 

[Metrojet]

Okay, you gave us "your" solution, but I still need names of the westies that are ready to move on. How many will it take to get AOL to stand down?

Isn't this what you meant to say? "But, we on the EAST are happy that uSAPa is doing every thing they can to delay the MB integration of east / west / APA."

With the Nic award the east was still going to get 2/3's (probably more) of the combined airlines' attrition...but that wasn't good enough for you, was it?

Ah - I see
AOL would have settled for 33.3 % of Captain upgrades at "former east bases"?
Well - how many PHX upgrades were we going to get in return?
Since our merger - I can count on maybe both hands - the amount of pilots on the East who felt they were entitled to PHX CAP. Now how many of the West feel they are entitled to EAST CAP?
Just curious - how many West folks feel they should be narrow body CAP at current AA bases as well? It is really the same argument you could make now, if I were former West
Correction to the above - how many feel they should be wide body CAP at current AA bases?

No flame intended here - just having an exchange of information


Metrojet

 

[Guppiedriver]

Not one west pilot was responsible for the outcome of our SLI. I dont know how many west pilots would have taken an east coast upgrade, but I bet it wouldn't have been any more than the number of easties taking slots in PHX. I guess we'll never know.

After the fences come down, I think that you should be able to hold what ever position that your seniority allows you...whether you had that A/C on your property before the merger or not. A merger creates a new airline and every employee should benefit from the combination.