AA to recall

[ERfly]

Nor will the scabs be!

What scabs? You guys goin' out on strike?

 

[beagle pilot]

There is an important omission in the AE MEC's summary - there are 710 furloughed pilots senior to the group of pilots furloughed on 28 Feb. So about 805 pilots have to be offered recall before the junior pilot in the 28 Feb group gets recalled.

A couple of thoughts:

First, it's a summary, not the actual arbitrated document. Second, try reading it again.

BTW,
You Might Be a Coastie if....

1. People ask you what you're doing beyond the three mile limit

2. After boot camp, you've never fired a gun

3. Your port calls have more bars in them than people

4. If you've had people say to you, "The Coast Guard is military?"

5. If your ship is handed a list of businesses your crew is not welcome at during their port call...

6. You can get an alcohol incident and advance in the same week.

7. You've woken up in the "red zone" in Panama.

8. WMEC means 'We Must Eat Chicken' to you.

9. You claim to have a woman in every port, yet you are at an ashore unit.

10. If you believe USCG really stands for "Uncle Sams Confused Group"

Semper Fi!

 

[inthepool]

The FB's were NOT treated with respect.
TC

Just for the record, I treated every flowback I flew with or talked to (or still talk to) with as much respect as possible. They were, with very few exceptions, an excellent group of guys. I don't think your general statement about flowback treatment is accurate. There were a few isolated incidents, but overall my observation in both the crew room and the flight deck was that the flowbacks as well as us at Eagle tried to make the best of the situation, and got along fairly well while doing it.

If most AA pilots are like the flowbacks I flew with, then the Eagle guys headed to AA in June should have no problems.

 

[ultrarunner]

Are the AE guys getting on the 777??

Uhhhh....you get on what your seniority will hold, right? And/or in the case of a new-hire class, how ever they determine that in the class.

 

[beagle pilot]

Uhhhh....you get on what your seniority will hold, right? And/or in the case of a new-hire class, how ever they determine that in the class.

Correct. IIRC, the top 100 or so flow thrus will be able to hold S80 or 737 FO where they want or close to it or 767 FO in LGA or MIA. After that most of them are close to being stapled new hires in terms of seniority.

 

[Draginass]

The 35 in June will get whatever slots are open considering their seniority. I do not think they will be allowed to bump into any base they want. After that they can bid like everyone else on the monthly base/equipment bid into whatever they can hold.

My guess is that most will end up initially in St Louis on the S80. Not sure of how the dynamics will work there, considering that I think this is going to essentially kill any chances for the TWA LLCers or the native post-TWA acquisition AA hires (not new hires, but Nicolau didn't care about them) to return from furlough for many many more years. One wild card in this is the time-to-captain calculation which AA has not yet calculated for 2007-2009.

This capricious decision by this Nicolau guy could easily turn out to be a train wreck in it's unintended consequences.

 

[beagle pilot]

The 35 in June will get whatever slots are open considering their seniority. I do not think they will be allowed to bump into any base they want. After that they can bid like everyone else on the monthly base/equipment bid into whatever they can hold.

Sounds about right. That's the way we do it at Eagle, but I wasn't sure of the APA's rules regarding classes.

This capricious decision by this Nicolau guy could easily turn out to be a train wreck in it's unintended consequences.

As could any agreement or arbitration, but this one doesn't look capricious to me. It's a tough call and I think he made a decent decision out of it. What do you think he should have done?

 

[AA717driver]

Just for the record, I treated every flowback I flew with or talked to (or still talk to) with as much respect as possible. They were, with very few exceptions, an excellent group of guys. I don't think your general statement about flowback treatment is accurate. There were a few isolated incidents, but overall my observation in both the crew room and the flight deck was that the flowbacks as well as us at Eagle tried to make the best of the situation, and got along fairly well while doing it.

If most AA pilots are like the flowbacks I flew with, then the Eagle guys headed to AA in June should have no problems.

You're a little different situation. Some of the FO's had the "you're in MY seat attitude" but they were few.

Training was a hellish nightmare for the FB's and the names of the worst sim and line checkairmen is being made public as we speak.

If you're part of the 800 or so that get a FT at the end, it's not even an issue. He!!, you might even be retired by then...

TC

 

[beagle pilot]

You're a little different situation. Some of the FO's had the "you're in MY seat attitude" but they were few.

Dude, that's still true but it's applied to native Eagle pilots. Flowbacks were no different than any other Eagle Captain who was perceived as "preventing" an FO from the fast upgrade he was promised in his new hire class.

Training was a hellish nightmare for the FB's and the names of the worst sim and line checkairmen is being made public as we speak.

Again, it wasn't just FB's. While there's always a few folks who will act unprofessional in any group, Eagle training is extremely tough compared to AA training. There's a definite "If you don't like it, quite" attitude running through the entire company. A very large number of pilots at Eagle, native or FB, have at least one pink slip in their training file due to the system in place. Yours truly included.

It's not a user friendly system for anyone so don't take it personal when they treated FB's exactly the same as any other Eagle pilot.

 

[DGdaPilot]

The 35 in June will get whatever slots are open considering their seniority. I do not think they will be allowed to bump into any base they want. After that they can bid like everyone else on the monthly base/equipment bid into whatever they can hold.

My guess is that most will end up initially in St Louis on the S80. Not sure of how the dynamics will work there, considering that I think this is going to essentially kill any chances for the TWA LLCers or the native post-TWA acquisition AA hires (not new hires, but Nicolau didn't care about them) to return from furlough for many many more years. One wild card in this is the time-to-captain calculation which AA has not yet calculated for 2007-2009.

This capricious decision by this Nicolau guy could easily turn out to be a train wreck in it's unintended consequences.

Or they can just hardship to whatever base they want.

 

[AvroGuy]

Now isn't something like 800-900 pilots going on a 7 day a week golf vacation for the next 20 or so years, retirement, going to start happening next year? If this is true, AA will go throught the recalls in no time and then through the remaining FT in short order. That is assuming they don't start shrinking the airline by number of pilots and planes.

 

[beagle pilot]

Now isn't something like 800-900 pilots going on a 7 day a week golf vacation for the next 20 or so years, retirement, going to start happening next year? If this is true, AA will go throught the recalls in no time and then through the remaining FT in short order. That is assuming they don't start shrinking the airline by number of pilots and planes.

Possible, but not probable IMHO because I think they will shrink.

In short, my guesstimate is the last of the 527 FTs won't transfer to AA for 2-3 years. Then there will be a gap of a couple years before hiring to replace attrition takes place. This will be due to several factors:
1. Completion of the AA-APA contract negotiations.
2. The results of those negotiations; specifically scope relief, parking all their MD-80s while only replacing half of them and pilot work rule changes raising the cap on flight hours.

Due to these factors, I don't see the preferential/new hire classes beginning for at least five years and it will take another five years before the last of the 824 preferential class seats are used.

Of course, a strike/bankruptcy, a gas crisis, avian flu epidemic or any other calamity could change this time line.

 

[igneousy2]

Recall? Only furloughed pilots get to have the recall term applied to them. The AE pilots that will be coming to AA will be called something totally different and it won't be "recalled pilot".

Better study REAL hard guys! IF you make it through training many of the AA pilots you are jumping ahead of can't wait to fly with you!

It's amazing how attitudes change once the shoes on the other foot.

 

[beagle pilot]

It's amazing how attitudes change once the shoes on the other foot.

Agreed, but it also amazes me how misinformed many of them continue to be.

Sorry BMT, but no Eagle pilots are jumping ahead of anybody. It's called "Seniority Order" as anyone who read the arbitration should know.

You are correct however since it isn't a recall. It's a transfer as noted in the same document.

 

[NAA Pilot]

Do these AE guys really want to go to AA??
When they go they WILL be based in STL with a few lucky ones getting LGA or MIA. They will be locked in that base for a year and you can forget about getting DFW or ORD for years and years. There are hundreds of guys on property that have reinstatement rights that trump seniority in bidding back to these bases. In STL, due to supp CC. they will bid behind the TWA guys no matter what the AE guys AA seniority is so, if based in STL the AE guy will be on reserve until able to bid out (probably 2 years or more) and forget DFW and ORD (my guess is it will take 5-8 years). AA reserve makes AE reserve look like a vacation. ie. movable days off and NO flexibility. You HAVE to be in STL every day on reserve and the movable days off WILL be moved to make life horrible.
It takes a 7700 seniority to bid the most junior (really crappy) line on the 80 in LGA.
It takes a 7900 seniority to bid the most junior (really, really crappy) line on the 737 in MIA.
Oh and those thinking the minimum distribution for the A plan is $1500/month..... WRONG WRONG WRONG!!!! It's $1500/year! That is what most of these guys will get as it takes MANY MANY MANY years participating in the A plan to see any real $$$.
And it looks like TTC will be around 18 years.
I think I would rather stay at AE making $100/hr with a 80 hour senior captain line than $92 an hour with a 64 hour guarantee commuting to reserve in STL. You wont see $100/hr until year 8. But hey.... you'll have the A-plans $1500 per YEAR!!!! WOW!

 

[beagle pilot]

Do these AE guys really want to go to AA??

You are correct, why would anyone be that stupid? Who wants to be called an "Arrogant Asshat" or "Sky Nazi"? Who wants to be ridiculed for labeling themselves "The World's Greatest Pilots"? Really, you are right NAA Pilot. It's amazing.

I won't be going, but there are many at Eagle lined up to take my place. Most at too young to really worry about retirement and all that. They just like the idea of being in big shiny jet and telling all their friends they're AA pilots. You know, just like the ones there now.

You're sure to appreciate these jokes, NAA Pilot:

How do you tell there is an AA pilot at your party? Don't worry, he'll tell you!

What happens when an AA pilot takes Viagra? He grows taller.

What does an AA pilot use for birth control? His personality.

How many AA pilots does it take to change a light bulb? Just one. He holds it up and the world revolves around him.

Why do AA pilots like women with big boobs and tight snatches? Because they all have big mouths and little dicks.

 

[washout]

deleted

 

[ultrarunner]

deleted

Here's Washout's response ;-)

Not funny. Not nice. Not cool.

After reading crap like that, it amazes me that FI asks me "Are you sure you want to log off?"

Yeah, I'm sure.

But you must admit, NAA Pilot gives some pretty compelling reasons for a current AE pilot to stay put......

 

[beagle pilot]

But you must admit, NAA Pilot gives some pretty compelling reasons for a current AE pilot to stay put......

Using the same logic, it amazes me many AA pilots don't quit and go to work for McDonalds. I wonder how AA will expect to get new hires in a few years with such a sucky airline contract.

 

[igneousy2]

Has it ever been decided if the flow through guys have a choice? I haven't been up to date recently, but according to the original Flow-Through LOA, once you made your "Eagle Rights" or "Flow Through" choice...that was it you were either staying or going. Unfortunately for most of these guys it ended up being a 10 year + seat lock.