AA Recalls Update

[thor2j]

There are already 400+ Eagle with AA numbers, that is how AA was able to flow so many over to Eagle. I was referring to them, not the ones hoping to get a number if AA ever hires in the future. The question is will they honor those numbers. I don't see how they can not since they are on the published senority lists.

There will be many flowbacks at eagle when that thing expires, so I assume they will honor the ones already with the numbers , otherwise flowbacks will find themselves on the street.

 

[eaglefly]

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif] Sup W[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]III. Employment Opportunities at AA for AMR Eagle, Inc. Pilots[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]D. If a CJ Captain is placed on the AA Pilots Seniority List per III.B. above, such[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]CJ Captain will receive priority based on his AA seniority in filling a [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]new hire[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]position in the next new hire class, following release from a training freeze or[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]other AMR Eagle, Inc. imposed operational constraint.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Depending upon who you talk to Sup W expires either May of 2007 or May of 2008.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]From the contract[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]'VII. Duration[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]A. This Supplemental Agreement shall be effective on signing and shall continue in full force and effect through the later of:[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]1. The amendable date of the next ensuing Basic Agreement between AA and APA.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]2. Ten (10) years from the date of signing of this Supplemental Agreement, at which time this Supplemental Agreement shall become null, void and of no further force and effect.'[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]If you read number 1, then the next amendable date become May of 2007 because AA decided to open up contract negotiations early on May of 2006. If they had waited until the normal date of May 2007 then Sup W would have expired on May of 2008, which is when most folks seem to think it still think it is set to expire.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]IMHO, it's a moot point because their is no way that AA get through the 2,800 furloughed pilots before either date. Which equates to no new hires before SUp W expires, which equate to no more flow throughs. [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]If you listen to the latest rumors AA would like to ramp up recalls to 40 within 6 months. So for arguments sake lets say that 66% decide to accept recalls. 2800 x 66% = 1848. I know the numbers for the first group are significantly lower but these folks are the ones that took the "furlough instead" because they all had something better to do, so it can be expected that they will not come back until they have too. As numbers get closer to the bottom of the list percentages traditionally get higher.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Back to the math. 10 a month for the next 3 months, then 20 a month for months 4-6, from then on out 40 a month. [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]That's 330 for 2007 and then 480 a year until furloughs are exhausted. If 66% accept the recalls then it will take until 4 years or Jan of 2011. If 50% of the then 1400 pilots or the you are looking at 3 years or Jan of 2010 before AA needs to start hiring off the street. Either way Sup W has long since expired. [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Again IMHO, the Eagle pilots would just be wasting their time if they were waiting around until 2010 or 2011 just to try and get a number at AA, those guys are Sr enough with enough PIC time to be more then competitive today at SWA, UPS, FedEx or CAL. AA is not worth the wait.[/FONT]

The agreement does in fact, expire in May 2008. Originally, it was 2007, but the modified contract of theirs set that back to 2008.

The APA will attempt to block any more flowthrus (even those with AA seniority numbers) because it's in their best interest.

AMR has already reaffirmed that those with numbers will indeed flow after the expiration of Suppliment W/Letter 3, when AA begins hiring new pilots. They have also reaffirmed that those without numbers are toast.

Eagle managment would like to see as many of the 16-20 year captains off to AA as possible. The yearly pay of these 400+ pilots ranges from $90,000 to $130,000, depending on hours flown, overtime, IOE etc.

Eagle ALPA wants to boot these pilots off the property tootsweet to make way for rapid advancement for the rest of the mid-level and junior Eagle pilots (of which they are). In fact, they have filed a greivance to include flowthrus in the furlough recall process in order of AA seniority..............ridiculous of course, but they're trying.

An expidited arbitration between the APA and ALPA is almost a certainty. The wildcard will be AMR's final stance when they have to choose a side for the hearing.

 

[Draginass]

AA's already made their position very clear. Holding a flowthru number does not entitle one to being 'recalled.' To be 'recalled' a pilot must have been hired, working at AA (not just AMR), and been furloughed from AA. Only after the AA furloughees have been recalled, can an AE pilot that has elected flowthru be considered for a new hire class.

I know AE ALPA's tilting at the windmill over this, but it's not going to change anything. Just a windup for the BBs.

At any rate, it's going to be a long time before AA starts to hire again. Anybody at AE should not be waiting for a possible flowthru. There are better companies that pay better and have a good possiblity of being around in the long term.

 

[thor2j]

So must of the TWA people are not considered for recall?????

They never worked for AA.

 

[ironspud]

So must of the TWA people are not considered for recall?????

They never worked for AA.

My my. You poor baby.

 

[rudderdog]

So must of the TWA people are not considered for recall?????

They never worked for AA.

Wrong....Most of the TWA pilots did work for AA

I was a 97 TWA hire. I wore an AA uniform and my paystub said AMR on it for my entire last year. I think that means I worked for AA. Furloughed in 03. 1800 senior to me furloughed, 1000 junior to me furloughed.

 

[eaglefly]

AA's already made their position very clear. Holding a flowthru number does not entitle one to being 'recalled.' To be 'recalled' a pilot must have been hired, working at AA (not just AMR), and been furloughed from AA. Only after the AA furloughees have been recalled, can an AE pilot that has elected flowthru be considered for a new hire class.

I know AE ALPA's tilting at the windmill over this, but it's not going to change anything. Just a windup for the BBs.

At any rate, it's going to be a long time before AA starts to hire again. Anybody at AE should not be waiting for a possible flowthru. There are better companies that pay better and have a good possiblity of being around in the long term.

Correct. AA seniority flowthrus have already been bypassed, hence the greivance.

In this case, AMR is correct in that Eagle ALPA's assertion of this is rediculous. I think it will be '09 before street hires are needed. Those 400+ captains will have to muddle along on $10,000/month till AA hiring starts up again............................poor saps.

 

[thor2j]

how do you delete post made in err??

 

[sgu]

Will AA furloughees go back to year 1 pay or do they get longevity credit?

 

[thor2j]

I forgot that "most" of the TWA guys were there breifly in formality.

 

[G4G5]

Correct. AA seniority flowthrus have already been bypassed, hence the greivance.

In this case, AMR is correct in that Eagle ALPA's assertion of this is ridiculous. I think it will be '09 before street hires are needed. Those 400+ captains will have to muddle along on $10,000/month till AA hiring starts up again............................poor saps.

Do you really think that those 400 pilots even want to go to AA? Not being a wise as, just curious? These guys are making a descent buck with a high Q of L. Sure some may want to come to AA but I am guessing that the percentages would be very small. The folks in question have no doubt more then enough turbine PIC and TT to be competitive at SWA, UPS, FedEx or CAL. Any of which will get them back to the left seat much quicker then a number at AA will.

My guess is that most will just stick it out at Eagle. Which means that Eagle ALPA is just pissing in the wind trying to appease the membership by doing anything it can to help upgrades. I am also guessing that AMR and Brundage are smart enough to realize this, hence my guess is that they will side with the APA.

Not that it matters the APA has shown that they don't give a rats as about the furloughed folks. No pass bennies like UAL, NWA or USAir, no medical like DAL. Even the most recent joke, they knew folks would be coming back and when it came to beg for scraps at the table (China routes) they chose to ignore them, no longevity for recalls, no passes for the 2,800 on the street, nothing.

IMHO, if these folks wanted out of Eagle, they could have left (JetBlue, Airtran, whomever) a long time ago.

 

[CSY Mon]

Don't forget that the Eagle Flowthroughs get pay-credit based on years with AMR.

12 year starting pay ain't nothing to sneeze at, especially after the new contract is signed.

It may be worthwhile waiting for that carrot instead of chasing a JungleJet seat over @ JetBlue.

The TWA dudes are also getting pay-seniority for their years over @ K-Mart...not a bad deal...

 

[G4G5]

Don't forget that the Eagle Flowthroughs get pay-credit based on years with AMR.

12 year starting pay ain't nothing to sneeze at, especially after the new contract is signed.

It may be worthwhile waiting for that carrot instead of chasing a JungleJet seat over @ JetBlue.

The TWA dudes are also getting pay-seniority for their years over @ K-Mart...not a bad deal...

It's still FO pay. These guys will still be THOUSANDS of numbers away from the left seat.

 

[AA717driver]

I forgot that "most" of the TWA guys were there breifly in formality.

I don't know where you got your fairy tale version of this story but in April 2002 the NLRB approved the Single Carrier Petition and the lists were officially integrated.

Reality, not "formality". TC

 

[CSY Mon]

It's still FO pay. These guys will still be THOUSANDS of numbers away from the left seat.

Yup, but F/O pay @ $150.00 per hour ain't nothing to sneeze at. (If we get it of course)

Right now the top F/O pay is between $106 and $135 per hour.

Ya may not make captain, but ya sure could live on F/O pay.

I know I could.
Beats being on the street.

Been there done that: Scrubbing boat decks for $20.00 per hour I did when I hit the streets.

I was in the same boat as the TWA guys, working for a dying carrier: Widebody captain, then chapter 11, then 7, then nothing. Came to AA from scratch, no pay seniority, no CC, no nothing but ya won't hear me bitching.
A bit noisy from the TWA side however..

 

[G4G5]

12th year 777 FO pay is $135. None of those 400 guys will be able to hold a line on the 777, it's way too senior. Currently you need a number above 6000 even to hold a line in on the 777 in LGA as an FO.

Which leaves them the A300/767. Current 12th year 767 pay is $118 an hour. Even with a HUGE raise after the next contract you aren't going to see it from $118 to $150.

The big pay raise you keep refering to just isn't there. Using todays direct comparisions, not hypothetical what if's. These guys would be looking at going from $106 to $118. With the seniority numbers they would have, they are looking at LGA, ORD or MIA as a 767 on reserve as an FO. If they want to hold a line they are looking at an MD80 or 737 as an FO. Which just happens to be $106 an hour.

Is going from a capt at $97 an hour with high Q of L worth giving up for $106 an hour as an MD 80 FO with THOUSANDS of numbers to go before you get to see the left seat again? IMHO, no way but it's not my problem

 

[eaglefly]

Don't forget that the Eagle Flowthroughs get pay-credit based on years with AMR.

12 year starting pay ain't nothing to sneeze at, especially after the new contract is signed.

It may be worthwhile waiting for that carrot instead of chasing a JungleJet seat over @ JetBlue.

The TWA dudes are also getting pay-seniority for their years over @ K-Mart...not a bad deal...

Incorrect.

Eagle flowthru's start at first year pay. Pension accrual starts on their first day of payroll, but they do carry over vacation accrual (most will be 4 weeks/year).

At any rate, it would probably be about 50/50 for those that actually still want to flow. Most of the furloughees will be junior to most of those 400 flowthru's. Many of the flowthrus are in their early to mid 40's which with the inevitable raising of the retirement age to 65, might make an acceptable chance to spend 10 years as captain, especially with the forcast of retirements by the early/middle of the next decade.

AA is just a good bet as anywhere else.

 

[thor2j]

Yes the guys from TWA were actually on the property long after the flowthough had been signed. Yet they reaped the benefits more than anyone. They were offered a job a eagle that paid more then most of them ever made.

The aquisition of TWA, because Carty could not see around his ego, was the biggest detremental impact on AAs finance. Everybody knows it should never of been done.

 

[pipe]

Yes the guys from TWA were actually on the property long after the flowthough had been signed. Yet they reaped the benefits more than anyone. They were offered a job a eagle that paid more then most of them ever made.

The aquisition of TWA, because Carty could not see around his ego, was the biggest detremental impact on AAs finance. Everybody knows it should never of been done.

I suppose you would have preferred to staple us AND selectively apply or deny specific parts of the contract as well.

Would have been a bit hard to have APA crammed down our throats as our representation while simultaneously witholding selected parts of the contract. Even a corrupt bankruptcy judge wouldn't have gone for that.

PIPE

 

[macdu]

Yet they reaped the benefits more than anyone. They were offered a job a eagle that paid more then most of them ever made.

What are you smokin'?

 

[Vne]

They were offered a job a eagle that paid more then most of them ever made.

BS
I made 65k a yr at EA and my best yr at TWA was 163K ..your an idiot.

 

[CSY Mon]

Incorrect.

Eagle flowthru's start at first year pay. Pension accrual starts on their first day of payroll, but they do carry over vacation accrual (most will be 4 weeks/year).

What, I was wrong...?

Sorry, I did not have my facts straight, I assumed that anybody in AMR would keep their pay seniority.

 

[CSY Mon]

Is going from a capt at $97 an hour with high Q of L worth giving up for $106 an hour as an MD 80 FO with THOUSANDS of numbers to go before you get to see the left seat again? IMHO, no way but it's not my problem

Well, it gets worse now that they start a first year AA pay.
Around $88.00 an hours for MD-80?

If they are better off staying in place, why then the lawsuit to come over to the AA before the furloughs?

Yeah, there is a big IF with the new contract, but unless we get another 9/11, or another spike in fuel prices to $100.00, we should get a new and improved contract.
(Hopefully the furloughes will be made whole for the years on the street.)

Yet they reaped the benefits more than anyone. They were offered a job a eagle that paid more then most of them ever made.

 

[AA717driver]

Even before I got AA pay, I made $120/hr. (year 2000) and had QOL that is incomprehensible to Eagle pilots.

The flowback was a lifeboat--not a bonus. The TWA pilots operated under Green Book. They got access to the flowback. That's life. TC

 

[AvroGuy]

If they are better off staying in place, why then the lawsuit to come over to the AA before the furloughs?

because they are idiots. They may have an AA senority number but were never employed by AA. Anyhow the flowthroughs were suppose to occupy newhire classes there for when the first new hire class starts there should be 50%(?) flowthroughs and 50% off the street.

oh by the way I don't qualify for floughthrough I just see the lawsuit for what it is. Stupid.

 

[rudderdog]

Yes the guys from TWA were actually on the property long after the flowthough had been signed. Yet they reaped the benefits more than anyone. They were offered a job a eagle that paid more then most of them ever made.

The aquisition of TWA, because Carty could not see around his ego, was the biggest detremental impact on AAs finance. Everybody knows it should never of been done.

This one is a total tool....She's doing everything possible to spin it in her favor.

 

[thor2j]

Rudderdog and Vne,

since u can't have a conversation without name calling and insults we might as well start. TWA was on the verge of liquidating. Nobody would of bailed them out. Carty's ego got the best of him and he tried to compete with the Usair-United supposed merger. There was NO benefit to AA. When Crandal left the company was never stronger, that combined with obvious other things sent AA spiraling down.

The flowthrough was NEVER a part of TWA, they lucked out. Many went to Eagle with 18yr pay vs. being furloughed.

Lets face it, TWA in its day was great, along with the people. But in the late 90's when they were hiring, they hired the people who couldn't get a job with any of the other majors that were hiring. Nobody went there and said I want to work here not AA, United, Delta, etc....Then they get AA numbers when they should of liquidated.

 

[thor2j]

This one is a total tool....She's doing everything possible to spin it in her favor.

Oh, and by the way rudderhog.....I am not female and have a whole lot more time then U!

 

[rudderdog]

The flowthrough was NEVER a part of TWA, they lucked out. Many went to Eagle with 18yr pay vs. being furloughed.

You're right. As I recall, and I could be wrong, the flowthrough (or flowback) went to AA pilots not TWA pilots. Remember, we were AA pilots by then. Right?


As far as what "might" have happened to TWA. Good Lord child, how could anybody argue either way? If this deal didn't happen, that might have been an opportunity for some other group. There were other parties interested. That is a fact. Also, as far as wanting to work at TWA, how can you make such a statement? You're obviously just venting or something. I applied to United and TWA at the same time. TWA hired me within 2 months while my United app was returned because it was "outdated". Bfd. I started at TWA and loved it and saw a potential opportunity if the company recovered like many thought it would. I never applied back at UAL or AA.

Good for you with all your flight time too. As for me, because you're so concerned, I'm building houses now, not flight time. Maybe you can fly me and my family to our next Hawaiian vacation later this year. You can really get me back then as I'll be paying for you to build more flight time.

 

[pipe]

Rudderdog and Vne,

since u can't have a conversation without name calling and insults we might as well start. TWA was on the verge of liquidating. Nobody would of bailed them out. Carty's ego got the best of him and he tried to compete with the Usair-United supposed merger. There was NO benefit to AA. When Crandal left the company was never stronger, that combined with obvious other things sent AA spiraling down.

The flowthrough was NEVER a part of TWA, they lucked out. Many went to Eagle with 18yr pay vs. being furloughed.

Lets face it, TWA in its day was great, along with the people. But in the late 90's when they were hiring, they hired the people who couldn't get a job with any of the other majors that were hiring. Nobody went there and said I want to work here not AA, United, Delta, etc....Then they get AA numbers when they should of liquidated.

Well, by your reckoning, AA in its day was great, along with the people. Now its time for you to send out resumes.

You're right, many of us were lucky. We were shown the door early and got jobs at good companies.

PIPE