AA JFK crosswind emergency...

[atcloser]

This post is 100% on the ball correct. Herein lies the real blame for what happened that day. Our hands are tied too.

Min fuel doesn't mean squat to JFK ATC. The FAA management is forcing the controllers to over-maximize the traffic into and out of JFK due to the runway closure. In retrospect, maybe the best course of action considering that it's obvious that the airline and FAA managements want to put the runway closure monkey on the back of the pilots, would be to divert when the FAA insists on landing aircraft on runways with close-to, or blatantly out-of-limits winds and refuses to allow you to land into the wind.

As usual, it's the pilots that have to make up for the lack of leadership in airline management and the FAA.

If you read what the FAA controller rep said afterwards, it's obvious to me that the controllers at JFK are under tremendous pressure from FAA management to "push tin" to the max and to hell with everything else.

 

[Patriot328]

4000 lbs is nuts in a 767.

You aren't kidding!!!

 

[C-150ETOPS]

Memory fades me as to what point the heat exchanger for the hydraulic system goes uncovered for lack of fuel. 2000 lbs/300 gallons isn't much. Another factor is pitch limitations. Perform a robust GA and take your chances with 400 gallons sloshing away from the pick up points. You can also take your chances with the calibration in a set of 20-30 year old tanks. i'm sure AA nailed those numbers down on the last D-Check.

Then again, forget all the above. They should have been more caring and sharing, along with fostering a cohesive relationship with JFK Tower in order to make a team decison.

Some here seem to have spent too much time watching the Teletubbies as kids, and overdosed on self esteem validation while in school.

 

[igneousy2]

This is just plain flat out wrong information. Almost nothing you have said here is accurate. You are living in a fantasy land.

An emergency is whenever there is an emergency not whenever you say there's an emergency. Whether the captain *declares* it to be an emergency is not necessarily relevant. A declaration of emergency is not some magic set of words, it is a simple statement to ATC that you either a) require assistance or b) intend to exercise your PIC emergency authority in order to ensure a safe outcome of flight. In the case of a), the captain is not required to declare an emergency, anyone can do it including ATC or the dispatcher. Tower sees flames shooting out your engine? Bam, emergency declared, trucks roll, you don't have to say squat.

In the case of b), you have the PIC authority whether you declare it or not. It's inherent.

HOWEVER, whenever you deviate from a rule or regulation using your emergency authority you are ABSOLUTELY required to explain yourself to the FAA within 10 written days. 121.557. If there was no actual emergency, expect certificate action. You are also REQUIRED to keep ATC or dispatch informed of your progress during the actual emergency.

Okay you got me on the 10 written days...I said EVER but what I really meant is EVER to ATC on the radio.

But I stand by the rest of it...they are lucky you called...91.3 can negate all the rest of what you quoted if you don't feel like you have the time.

The point is that THIS captain believed that not putting the airplane down right now constituted an emergency. From the reports on here he had 6,500 lbs of fuel when he landed which even in the narrow body world is not a whole lot down low.

 

[LJ45]

I had to get pretty nasty with them a few months back going into TEB. One runway open and the tailwind component was well over 10 kts, which is a limitation on the aircraft I was flying. I asked for opposite direction and was told no, I told them the tailwind component was over the limit and they said everyone is landing that direction. Finally, I said aircraft have their limits and the tailwind component is over our legal limit, and I added, haven't we had enough aircraft problems at TEB already. After three times and getting pretty insistent on the last request, we get vectored off to never never land while they turn everything around. Then the controller wanted to be my best friend on the radio after a while. The northeast flying sucks, nothing but attitudes.

 

[ultrarunner]

Yep LJ45, done the same myself at TEB. At one point I told the controller that ERW and LGA operations didn't concern me, I asked for a hold while he sorted it out, and bingo, a downwind for 06!

And I didn't even have to declare an emergency ;-)

 

[LJ45]

and i didn't even have to declare an emergency ;-)

funny !

 

[Quimby]

You don't know. I don't know. We have a limited amount of information, but based on that it is very likely that fuel was a factor, and that's a very big deal. I'm inclined to give a fellow captain the benefit of the doubt until the facts are in. Even the FARs extend that much courtesy...

Fuel's a big deal? Really? Thanks for the update. Very insightful.

 

[Oh-ryan]

Until all of the facts come out, NOBODY should get the benefit of the doubt. Based on the facts that have come out so far, the captain loses points on the "communicate" portion of the "aviate, navigate, communicate" triad we are all taught from day one. If he had communicated better, we would not have a thread that is 10 pages long and counting. We would have known exactly what the problem was and the reason for his decision. Of course we would all then debate if the nature of the problem truly was an emergency.

I understand that time constraints may have limited his ability to effectively communicate, so we'll just have to wait and see what all the facts are. That's precisely why "communicate" is the last in piority of the triad. Once the facts do come out, he may gain points on the first two elements of the triad... or he may not.

Of course there will some of you block heads out there that will retort with, "He did communicate. He declared an emergencey. He's the PIC. Period. Checkmate." and for that I thank you in advance for your contribution.

 

[waveflyer]

Didn't everybody live? What's the controversy? We all know this isn't about Emergency authority- it's about a busy airport w/ a closed runway pushing pilots into a corner- and one captain who pushed back and shed some light on JFK standard practices. Dissecting the 'nature of the emergency' is missing the point. IMHO

 

[Say Again Over]

Yes the problem is deeper than the few facts that we were made aware of to date, Wino and some Dispatcher guy puts a lot more information out on the streets (pprune).

Like on the nice clear windy days, they aren't even required to have an alternate, of course most of us all know that the airports lose runways when it's windy and this is when holding occurs, these guys were probably dispatched on fumes.

 

[satpak77]

http://archive-server.liveatc.net/kjfk/KJFK-Twr-May-04-2010-2100Z.mp3

another copy of the audio.

 

[LJ45]

I noticed the winds got better after the emergency ...hm

 

[Snaab]

I had to get pretty nasty with them a few months back going into TEB. One runway open and the tailwind component was well over 10 kts, which is a limitation on the aircraft I was flying. I asked for opposite direction and was told no, I told them the tailwind component was over the limit and they said everyone is landing that direction. Finally, I said aircraft have their limits and the tailwind component is over our legal limit, and I added, haven't we had enough aircraft problems at TEB already. After three times and getting pretty insistent on the last request, we get vectored off to never never land while they turn everything around. Then the controller wanted to be my best friend on the radio after a while. The northeast flying sucks, nothing but attitudes.

I hear ya! I'm based in EWR and I have learned this: there is a runway configuration at TEB, EWR, LGA and JFK that they 'like' and feel is optimal, and they won't change one airport unless all of them want a change. For instance, in the fall and winter, they'll stick with 22L in EWR because they don't wanna ruffle feathers at the other airport, but nevermind the howling quartering tailwind on approach to EWR 22L.

Anyone have any "conspiracy theories" on the NYC runway configurations?

 

[Godfather]

Anyone have any "conspiracy theories" on the NYC runway configurations?[/QUOTE]

Aliens that control Area 51 and High positions in the FAA, Skull and Crossbones, Girl Scouts, ACORN...I think they are all in on it somehow.

I passed under you the other day doing the VOR DME A at TEB. I honked the horn but you didn't wave back...lol!