AA JFK crosswind emergency...

[ultrarunner]

I will put a boot on that baby's respirator tube if it saves 200 lives. Those of you who would hang this AA crew already, may you forever inhabit the right seat.

The key Cardinal is WHAT were all those passengers being saved FROM.

Don't you think it is fairly simply to state what the nature of the emergency is? I would think a competent PIC would want the best information passed on to ATC so that all those 200 people have the best chance of survival, right??

Now, I'm not smart, but I have declared a couple E's in my day, and I have been pretty darn clear and concise....

....but each PIC has their own style....


BRACE YOURSELF! CLEAR the WAY, WE'RE COMING IN!!!!!

pretty figgin incredible!

 

[satpak77]

Min fuel doesn't mean squat to JFK ATC.

Especially when it is never declared in the first place.

 

[Quimby]

I will put a boot on that baby's respirator tube if it saves 200 lives. Those of you who would hang this AA crew already, may you forever inhabit the right seat.

So 200 lives were in immediate danger? As in, right now, Sully-type danger?

 

[satpak77]

So 200 lives were in immediate danger? As in, right now, Sully-type danger?

Or Sioux City

 

[Cardinal]

So 200 lives were in immediate danger? As in, right now, Sully-type danger?

You don't know. I don't know. We have a limited amount of information, but based on that it is very likely that fuel was a factor, and that's a very big deal. I'm inclined to give a fellow captain the benefit of the doubt until the facts are in. Even the FARs extend that much courtesy...

 

[C-150ETOPS]

Satpak,

Others have covered it ad-naseum that the communications we have come from some guys scanner monitoring different frequencies and there are obvious missing transmissions. To say you know the crew didn't mention the fuel is ridiculous.

If AA's rumored arrival fuel number is correct, somewhere around 6,500 lbs, then the crews concern is understandable. If I remember correctly, takeoff FF for two CF6's is about 24,000lbs/hour.

Keep in mind also that that 767 may be nearing 30 years old, and given the cutbacks in everything AA does, one might not trust the gauges. that 6.5K could be 10K and 3K. I wouldn't trust any carriers gauges when it comes time to start splitting minutes. it's probably like everything else an airline does, just a corporate estimate. I've had takeoffs in a B737 where it behaved like it was 10,000 heavier than stated. The response, "so what?"

There were no babies in incubators. I do also have plenty of time in the past flying Lifeguard flights with organs whose shelf life was measured in hours. ATC seemed to give a crap at times and it wasn't unheard of to slap them upside the headphones and tell them we were going to do our plan not theirs. I have no doubt the kid who was getting the heart I was flying would have appreciated it.

You mentioned CRM? Maybe JFK Tower could do their job and consider the operational performance limitations that have been in place since the Wright Brothers flew at Kittyhawk instead of Political issues of pushing 2 million pounds of RJ crap into a 1 million pound bag.

 

[ultrarunner]

So 200 lives were in immediate danger? As in, right now, Sully-type danger?

Well Quimby, when a PIC exercises their authority, and gives the "brace yourself Ethel, I'm going in" comment, and they immediately executes that plan, I'm thinking their was imminent danger. What other explanation would there be for an immediate turn-back?

I'll give the PIC the benefit I suppose....

Should be interesting to read all the facts!

Ultra--

 

[BillJBrake]

THEY DID ask for it, after the controller told them "to get 31R you will have to declare an emergency."

The controller never told them to get 31R they'd have to declare. "I know you told me if you didn't get 31R you would HAVE to declare an emergency....I understand, fly runway heading..."

It seems like the controller was very reasonable and tried to accomodate, throughout. The Pilot went rogue off the bat and started to give him a hard time, etc. If the emergency was *THAT* urgent, why didn't he mention his fuel situation somepart during the declaring, or something to let the controller know it was more than just wind.

It's as if he never gave the controller a chance, very brash work by the captain. I don't hear anywhere in the tapes where the controller is refusing to accomodate his request for 31R, seems like the AAL pilot was also lacking some patience, along with his communication skills.

 

[FO 4 Life]

If AA's rumored arrival fuel number is correct, somewhere around 6,500 lbs, then the crews concern is understandable. If I remember correctly, takeoff FF for two CF6's is about 24,000lbs/hour.

So what is considered emergency fuel for a 767 at AA? My company is 4000.

 

[75 Driver]

This one has gone up the food chain, it is national's court now. The Garden City FSDO did some initial footwork, with DFW jumping in to counter some of the first questions posed by the local FSDO(Garden City) rep.

Most probably outcomes being discussed, some changes to guidance contained in the American Airlines manual system, training and checking program, operational control issues will need some additional oversight and recommendations for changes.

As far as the crew is concerned the possibility of 709 rides is still on the table. The decision will come shortly.