AA JFK crosswind emergency...

[satpak77]

comments ?

http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/new...s_clearance_crosswind_emergency_202510-1.html

Construction And Crosswind Leads To JFK "Emergency" (With Audio)


The crew of a loaded American Airlines Boeing 767 out of Los Angeles ultimately declared an emergency while trying to land in strong crosswinds at JFK after apparently being denied their runway of choice. Speaking for the JFK Controller union, Steve Abraham told ABC news, the pilot "had no choice. He couldn't land 22L, it would have been illegal for him," due to the crosswind. JFK's main runway has been closed for about eight weeks, now, and maintaining the flow of traffic at the airport has led to some less than ideal clearances. For this crew, at that time, the clearance to 22L apparently crossed the line. After receiving the clearance, the crew responded, "We can't land on 22," adding later, "We're breaking off approach and if you don't give us to Runway 31R, we're going to declare an emergency." The pilots did declare an emergency, told the tower of their intentions and added, "Remove everybody from our way. We've declared an emergency."
JFK's main runway, the 14,572 foot-long 13 right/31 left was closed in March to undergo a four-month-long facelift that includes widening and repaving. The closure is expected to last through June and means that the international airport's normal traffic must be diverted to the international airport's three remaining runways. But, according to controllers, maintaining the pre-closure traffic volume in all weather conditions, without incurring delays, has presented challenges made manifest in this testy exchange. Click for Audio.

 

[Draginass]

Before you post something like this, why don't you get the complete facts behind this instead of inferring that it was a crosswind issue only?


Maybe the FAA administrator ought to put safety first for a change and decrease the volume of traffic when necessary.
But, then again, why would we expect him to do that when he stalls flight time and duty day reforms in favor of the airlines CEOs?

 

[satpak77]

Before you post something like this, why don't you get the complete facts behind this instead of inferring that it was a crosswind issue only?


Maybe the FAA administrator ought to put safety first for a change and decrease the volume of traffic when necessary.
But, then again, why would we expect him to do that when he stalls flight time and duty day reforms in favor of the airlines CEOs?

dude, chill. I asked "comments?" with no additional remarks by me. This means I did not take a position on the issue, simply posted it for reading and commentary by the audience. I do not (note: this is called a self admittance) have the facts nor the "real story"

 

[boeingdriver213]

What about Newark? Bradley? Phillie? I don't know the details but I'm not sure I'd want to land on a runway under construction, even in an emergency...

 

[instructordude]

How about the Hudson?

 

[vixin]

What about Newark? Bradley? Phillie? I don't know the details but I'm not sure I'd want to land on a runway under construction, even in an emergency...

Good thing they didnt land on 31L. They requested 31R.

 

[A-V-8]

I saw this on the news and they played the tape. It was presented as a heated exchange. I would hardly call it heated but would mostly call it professional. What’s the big deal? Of course now that it is on the news I am sure the FAA will revoke their certificates while they investigate leaving two normal pilots without pay.

 

[GuppyWN]

ATC has "a plan" and VERY LITTLE tolerace for pilots who don't chose to follow it. I applaud the American guys for doing it. In the end they got what they needed and ATC learned a lesson.

Gup

 

[75M]

Before you post something like this, why don't you get the complete facts behind this instead of inferring that it was a crosswind issue only?

Was it not just a crosswind issue?

 

[Raoul Duke]

Before you post something like this, why don't you get the complete facts behind this instead of inferring that it was a crosswind issue only?


Maybe the FAA administrator ought to put safety first for a change and decrease the volume of traffic when necessary.
But, then again, why would we expect him to do that when he stalls flight time and duty day reforms in favor of the airlines CEOs?

This is a great opportunity for all airlines and pilots to show exactly how broken ATC is. The facts leading to AA declaring an emergency is immaterial, all that matters is how poorly ATC handled it.

 

[be40isme]

Was it not just a crosswind issue?

Just board banter but I read they landed with around #6500. Not sure what emerg fuel on a 76 is but thats gotta be close if correct.

 

[27 driver]

There has to be more to it that crosswind issues. I would think they would divert before declaring an emergency due to excessive crosswinds. That audio did sound like it had been chopped though.

 

[UALRATT]

Before you post something like this, why don't you get the complete facts behind this instead of inferring that it was a crosswind issue only?

Why don't you familiarize yourself with the poster's intent before picking a fight. Does it really matter if it was not just crosswinds.

FAR PART 91.3 (a)
FAR PART 121.557 (a)

 

[Whine Lover]

" normal pilots "

Never met one.





YKMKR

 

[ATA For Now!]

Well done AA pilots. ATC needs to understand that WE fly the airplanes.

 

[taters]

There has to be more to it that crosswind issues. I would think they would divert before declaring an emergency due to excessive crosswinds. That audio did sound like it had been chopped though.

I agree...Id like to hear the previous 3 mins or so...that capt. sounded like he had already been a few rounds with ATC
well done

 

[samballs]

What about Newark? Bradley? Phillie? I don't know the details but I'm not sure I'd want to land on a runway under construction, even in an emergency...

not so smart are you

 

[Fins Up]

I can't imagine delcaring an emergency because of crosswinds. If the winds were out of limits and they needed a different runway, that could be accomplished without declaring an emergency. If the problem was low fuel other something else like that, that's another story. I'm based JFK and deal with these controllers all the time so I understand how they can be sometimes. But this whole thing is just weird. If you don't like the runway/crosswind configuration, that's not an emergency in my book unless there are other factors involved.

 

[Draginass]

The FAA leadership is pushing pilots to the max at JFK. They are trying to satisfy their masters at the ATA to run the same schedule regardless of environmental conditions. It's the old story, just like airline managements say: "Remember, it's safety first!" but then under the table subliminal pressure pilots to "Git 'er done." At least until something goes wrong, then they hang the pilots and waive the "Safety First" letter under their noses. This is the way the US aviation system has stumbled along for decades.

 

[Draginass]

I can't imagine delcaring an emergency because of crosswinds. If the winds were out of limits and they needed a different runway, that could be accomplished without declaring an emergency. If the problem was low fuel other something else like that, that's another story. I'm based JFK and deal with these controllers all the time so I understand how they can be sometimes. But this whole thing is just weird. If you don't like the runway/crosswind configuration, that's not an emergency in my book unless there are other factors involved.

Other factors were involved. And just try and ask for another runway from JFK approach control. You'll get the "Not only NO, but Hell NO, and don't ask again."

 

[Fins Up]

Other factors were involved. And just try and ask for another runway from JFK approach control. You'll get the "Not only NO, but Hell NO, and don't ask again."

Are you privvy to what these other factors were? If so, we'd all love to hear the whole story.

 

[WDE]

Sitting on Jetblue ramp over 1hour waiting on taxi clearance,saw the whole thihg.Quite entertaining,as well as the other go arounds

 

[luckytohaveajob]

If you don't like the runway/crosswind configuration, that's not an emergency in my book unless there are other factors involved.

Learn what the letters PIC mean before you become a captain.

ATC does not fly a plane. The captain does. And if in his judgement he needs a runway to keep his airplane safe it is not ATC's call to tell him otherwise.

 

[luckytohaveajob]

It sounds like the JFK tower was again letting a child run the tower.

Little kids often don't know what is going on but insist in getting their way.

"No you will do what I want Mr. AA pilot because it is my game and you can't play with my toys."

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

Learn what the letters PIC mean before you become a captain.

ATC does not fly a plane. The captain does. And if in his judgement he needs a runway to keep his airplane safe it is not ATC's call to tell him otherwise.

I'm all for re-establishing PIC authority. It's been eroded quite a bit. That said, when would you use emergency authority?

Hypothetically, let's say AA had originally been assigned 31R, but it was closed due to a gear up landing. Now they can't land on 31R. Is this an emergency? If fuel is not an issue, then no - it's just a diversion.

 

[Fins Up]

I'm all for re-establishing PIC authority. It's been eroded quite a bit. That said, when would you use emergency authority?

Hypothetically, let's say AA had originally been assigned 31R, but it was closed due to a gear up landing. Now they can't land on 31R. Is this an emergency? If fuel is not an issue, then no - it's just a diversion.

I agree. All I'm saying is that from what I heard on the tape, it didn't sound like a true emergency. Nothing said about a passenger issue, fuel problem, system problem, or any other problem. The tape leads us to believe that this "emergency" was purely a crossiwind thing. Any amplifying info anyone has would be good to know for us armchair qb's.

 

[Fins Up]

Learn what the letters PIC mean before you become a captain.

ATC does not fly a plane. The captain does. And if in his judgement he needs a runway to keep his airplane safe it is not ATC's call to tell him otherwise.

No shortage of PIC time here. You're right - the captain gets what the captain needs. In this case however the apparent factors that brought about this so-called emergency seem kinda weak.

If you say you need a different runway for crosswinds with nothing said about fuel or any other problem, I see no reason why ATC has to screw up and entire sequence of landing planes because the captain in question needs a different runway. If you're at min/emergency fuel than say so. How hard is that? An emergency fuel declaration will get you on the ground as fast as anything else.

 

[slapstick]

My backseat driving:

We've all diverted due to weather. We've probably all also discussed diversions with ATC and they've worked out a solution to get us in without diverting. Doesn't seem to me a reason to declare an emergency unless other factors were involved. Do you think going rogue, shaking off clearances, and driving around the world's busiest airspace is wise if you're not on fire or running out of fuel? Seems like more of a clash of egos.

 

[aa73]

I agree. All I'm saying is that from what I heard on the tape, it didn't sound like a true emergency. Nothing said about a passenger issue, fuel problem, system problem, or any other problem. The tape leads us to believe that this "emergency" was purely a crossiwind thing. Any amplifying info anyone has would be good to know for us armchair qb's.

Fins... a little common sense goes a long way here.

Winds are out of limits. Crew asks for different runway. Controller says unable. Crew has the option of a) going to a different airport, if they have the fuel for it, or b) declare an emergency in order to exercise PIC authority to get a runway that is within wind limits. In this case, it appears they did not have the fuel to go to a different airport (EWR, the closest for a transcon 767 also has 22 which would have been out of limits, anything else is further.) So, they had to declare an emergency. Where, exactly, do you fail to see their shortcoming? I think they did exactly what they should have done. Don't let ATC intimidate you or run your cockpit. They work for US. And if you run off a runway that was out of wind limits, career-wise you are going to be neck-deep in a river of $hit and here comes a wave.

 

[Fins Up]

Fins... a little common sense goes a long way here.

Winds are out of limits. Crew asks for different runway. Controller says unable. Crew has the option of a) going to a different airport, if they have the fuel for it, or b) declare an emergency in order to exercise PIC authority to get a runway that is within wind limits. In this case, it appears they did not have the fuel to go to a different airport (EWR, the closest for a transcon 767 also has 22 which would have been out of limits, anything else is further.) So, they had to declare an emergency. Where, exactly, do you fail to see their shortcoming? I think they did exactly what they should have done. Don't let ATC intimidate you or run your cockpit. They work for US. And if you run off a runway that was out of wind limits, career-wise you are going to be neck-deep in a river of $hit and here comes a wave.

- The controller never said "unable". He told him to fly runway heading while he coordinated. Did you catch that there were other planes in the pattern?? Maybe he didn't want a captain who was suddenly doing his own thing in the terminal area running into another airplane.
- Whichever pilot was on the radio declared an emergency once then got pissy when the controller confirmed that. He did not declare it three times as he claimed.
- You say it appears they didn't have enough fuel.... How do you know? How would the controller have known? How would anyone have known since the subject of fuel never came up during this exchange. If it's a fuel problem, say so.

There's you're common sense. If you think they handled the so-called emergency in the best way possible then I disagree with you. Of course all we have is a short audio replay to go by.