A Southwest pilot perspective

[waveflyer]

Yes, I totally agree an arbitrator isn't going to give a rats cajones about how great the SW pilots think they are. In fact, if they show this level of arrogance, they will probably get a good smack down from the arbitrator.

Your guys definition of arrogance is pretty slick. Show me where swa pilots are saying we're better. That's a dumb argument- what we're saying is that our job and our careers at SWA are incomparably better. The difference is one is ego and one is rational. You're just trying to inflame the situation.

 

[SWA Bubba]

Bubba, it doesn't matter what example you use. The point is that the First Air pilots, the AAI pilots, etc. all deserve the same thing, which is a fair process and a fair integration. That process should involve good faith negotiations, free from intimidation and threats. If good faith negotiations don't produce a mutually acceptable list, then a fair arbitration process by an independent neutral (s), should examine all the facts, listen to all the arguments and produce a fair and equitable list. The results of a negotiated list or arbitrated list should be accepted and implemented by all parties.

It's about a process, that is respectful of each pilot, not about using threats and intimidation to coerce an unfair list. A list that is coerced will never be accepted and will ultimately lead to a dysfunctional group.

FDJ2,

First and foremost, "fair" is in the eye of the beholder. It is a term of art with no precise definition. It changes with time as well. What ATN ALPA seems to think is "fair" now, bears absolutely no resemblance to what the majority of ATN pilots thought was "fair" in Aug 2010.

MY point, which you subtly and politely are trying to change is about what some ATN guys are trying to claim. Fubi and others said my first example was flawed because GL was a "crappy little prop company" that was apparently beneath them. Well, First Air is a "crappy little jet company," who I suspect you believe to be beneath you as well. I would like to hear Fubi and those others say on this forum that ATN and First Air are equals, because they both fly the same jets. You know, just like they say that ATN and SWA are equals, because we both fly the same jets.

Bubba

 

[pilotyip]

Your guys definition of arrogance is pretty slick. Show me where swa pilots are saying we're better. That's a dumb argument- what we're saying is that our job and our careers at SWA are incomparably better. The difference is one is ego and one is rational. You're just trying to inflame the situation.

Do SWA pilots still help clean the cabin on turns like in the ole days?

 

[stall022]

SWAPA initially promised their group the world. When they realized they couldn’t produce that staple job the only option left was to turn the negotiations over to GK. An arbitrated integration will never happen. No matter how the arbitrators decide since SWAPA will still kick and scream that it isn’t fair. GK will then be forced to find some excuse to part out AT in order to keep his “culture”.

 

[SWA Bubba]

Bubba, you're really rehashing what's already been futilely hashed, rehashed, smothered and covered.

Riddle me this, though. WHAT WAS THE FREAKING POINT OF THE PROCESS AGREEMENT!?!! Why did y'all bother to agree to it, if Gary and SWAPA knew all along that they were gonna wipe their collective asses with it.

Plain English or a fancy, contrived example will be fine. I really want to hear why you think it's OK to sign the thing, and then threaten to ignore it with extreme prejudice.

To answer your question literally, I don't know. All I can prove is that -I- didn't sign ANY agreement.

However, I THINK it was to set a timeline, etc. At least that was the main stated goal. And it isn't being ignored that I know of. If ALPA says no again, we'll go to the next step (I think mediation, if there's still time). Then the next step (arbitration). Then the next step (arbitrated SLI). Then the process agreement ENDS. With an SLI of some sort. Do you get that? The process agreement ends with an SLI.

Whether GK actually merges the airlines and/or implements the SLI is outside of the process agreement. The labor negotiation is concluded, and now it becomes a management business decision. Do you not see a difference? It's not up to SWAPA; it's not up to ALPA; it's up to management. GK and co. will make a decision based on what management feels is best for the continued health (financial & cultural) of the company they're charged with running.

As you may have noticed, SWAPA and ALPA haven't even done much of the negotiating. ALPA is effectively negotiating with management (which pisses off a lot of SWAPA people too, by the way). I suspect that it is to ensure that Gary gets what he wants. That's a management issue, not a labor issue. I (and SWAPA) have little-to-no say and couldn't change it if we wanted.

I guess the bottom line is, that SWAPA is not ignoring anything or threatening anyone. The process agreement will go on as agreed to its natural end. After that, your guess is as good as mine.

Bubba

 

[puddlejumper101]

FDJ2,

First and foremost, "fair" is in the eye of the beholder. It is a term of art with no precise definition. It changes with time as well. What ATN ALPA seems to think is "fair" now, bears absolutely no resemblance to what the majority of ATN pilots thought was "fair" in Aug 2010.

MY point, which you subtly and politely are trying to change is about what some ATN guys are trying to claim. Fubi and others said my first example was flawed because GL was a "crappy little prop company" that was apparently beneath them. Well, First Air is a "crappy little jet company," who I suspect you believe to be beneath you as well. I would like to hear Fubi and those others say on this forum that ATN and First Air are equals, because they both fly the same jets. You know, just like they say that ATN and SWA are equals, because we both fly the same jets.

Bubba

SWA Bubba, buddy, let me fill you in on a little secret. There are about 6 individuals on here that you will never see eye to eye with simply because you work for SWA. I am sure you already figured out who they are, just helping a brother out. Thing is, none of them work at Airtran, but will drive you crazy if you let them. Either that or your hand will hurt from typing in vain. No matter what you say, or how much sense you make, they turn the spin machine on.

 

[SWA Bubba]

Do SWA pilots still help clean the cabin on turns like in the ole days?

In a lot of cases, a lot of us do. I know that -I- do often when I can. Not as much anymore, especially for F/Os, because with increased automation and other crap that's been added, there's a lot less free time between legs.

 

[SWA Bubba]

SWA Bubba, buddy, let me fill you in on a little secret. There are about 6 individuals on here that you will never see eye to eye with simply because you work for SWA. I am sure you already figured out who they are, just helping a brother out. Thing is, none of them work at Airtran, but will drive you crazy if you let them. Either that or your hand will hurt from typing in vain. No matter what you say, or how much sense you make, they turn the spin machine on.

Good point. I'm actually just here because there's a bunch of guys painting a lot of my house, and my office is one of the few places where I can sit on something NOT covered with a drop cloth. Sittin' here on the computer, waiting for them to be done...

Bubba

 

[pilotyip]

In a lot of cases, a lot of us do. I know that -I- do often when I can. Not as much anymore, especially for F/Os, because with increased automation and other crap that's been added, there's a lot less free time between legs.

good to hear, it was one of those common man touches that the SWA pilots did to show they were just part of the team.

 

[FDJ2]

FDJ2,

First and foremost, "fair" is in the eye of the beholder. It is a term of art with no precise definition. It changes with time as well. What ATN ALPA seems to think is "fair" now, bears absolutely no resemblance to what the majority of ATN pilots thought was "fair" in Aug 2010.

MY point, which you subtly and politely are trying to change is about what some ATN guys are trying to claim. Fubi and others said my first example was flawed because GL was a "crappy little prop company" that was apparently beneath them. Well, First Air is a "crappy little jet company," who I suspect you believe to be beneath you as well. I would like to hear Fubi and those others say on this forum that ATN and First Air are equals, because they both fly the same jets. You know, just like they say that ATN and SWA are equals, because we both fly the same jets.

Bubba

Bubba, if, free from intimidation and threats, a negotiated settlement can't be reached, then it doesn't really matter what the AAI pilots think is a fair list, what's important is that there is a fair process for achieving a list and then implementing it.

If you truly believe in your position, then present it to a third party neutral, or panel of neutrals. Make your best case and then learn to accept the result. If your argument is solid, you have nothing to fear.

Once the list is determined, work together to integrate both pilot groups under the same contract as early as possible.

SWA can preserve the SWA culture by treating each pilot group in an even handed manner, not by picking favorites. SWAPA and the AAI pilots preserve the culture by treating each other with respect and dignity, not through extortion and threats of impeding integration if the majority group doesn't get a to impose it's unilateral interpretation of fair and equitable.