A challenge to the Flexjet Pilots on the fence or against a union

[doh]

And I have a challenge for you 993. Why don't you make a list of all the companies in the WORLD where paid employees of that company can go on a company-provided website and call the owner/management names, that they are stupid and their ideas are stupid, etc etc etc and not expect consequences. I know the answer, probably most of the fence-sitters know the answer.....I wonder if you can figure it out?
WL

Here's your challenge warlord: make a list of companies where paid employees of that company can racially abuse another employee, get caught with porn on their company computers, and still keep their job.
And by the way, not one single one of the the WRONGFULLY, ILLEGALLY fired employees called their boss names. As far as criticizing ideas, that's in Kenn's book. We are supposed to trust enough to criticize the organization and name names. So if any one of us thinks an idea is bad, we should speak up. According to Kenn's book only a weak manager can't explain and defend his ideas. In practice we see that isn't the case. The least little criticism cause management to go on a rampage, firing for no cause other than intimidation.

 

[Praetorian]

realityman, since you claim you don?t have a horse in this race, I would normally ignore your post. However, you write well and it?s intelligible, even if wrong, so I will indulge you this last message.

First, I don?t generally talk to myself in the morn, though a good BM makes me feel a whole lot better. And you do have a horse in this race, which is to write badly about our Management so as to persuade us to vote in the IBT. Then, it would take us years to recover and vote them out as your present employer did so many years ago after they got to know the real IBT (please, spare me and the other reader the union spin on why you voted them out) while allowing your somewhat faltering organization more breathing room to play catch up with us. Also, we are now a large enough group of pilots so that a union might be a good thing for us?.JUST NOT THE IBT. It?s National Office is a nest of thieves, and will probably go BACK under FEDERAL WATCH next year and to whom LOCAL 1108 sends a portion of EACH PILOT?S DUES every month. Such a sweet deal, huh?

If we vote NO and the Chairman of our company turns out to be SATAN, then we can start an HONEST UNION here a year from the vote count. And, we will have gained all the salary raises for EVERY pilot?not a bad deal, huh? Apparently ALPA will consider us if we are not IBT affiliated, and I?m sure your place would partner with us also, right? It?s all about unity and brotherhood, right?

And Duhhh, one of your more emotional guys here, writes that only the Red Label pilots will get these raises??I think even he knows that management cannot promise raises and things during an organization drive?it?s against the law, Duhhhhhh.

So, I?m gonna give management a chance and believe they will do just fine. They are NOT my enemy. If we kick the IBT out, ALL PILOTS should see a good raise. The marketplace for Pilots is tight and that?s the main factor driving wages, not your union or any union (this is assuming your management wants to stay competitive in the marketplace).
Adios,
WL

[FONT=&quot]Remember what Confessions of a union buster author Levitt says about the union buster[FONT=&quot]'[/FONT]s methods? Twist the truth, try to confuse and always, always attack. The post above is a classic example of this. It[FONT=&quot]'[/FONT]s [FONT=&quot]a [FONT=&quot]litany[/FONT] of[/FONT] all the same lies/distortions we[FONT=&quot]'[/FONT]ve been hearing from management since this campaign began. Distortions/gross oversimplifications about why the NJ pilots left the IBT, outright lies about ALPA being better for the Onesky pilots, then the big lie about, [FONT=&quot]"[/FONT]just give us a year". He even works in the pay-raise lie. The fact that he is so [FONT=&quot]"[/FONT]on message[FONT=&quot]"[/FONT] is the giveaway that he[FONT=&quot]'[/FONT]s a professional union-buster.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The truth is, the IBT 1108 is a pilots union made up of pilots, run by pilots elected from among the pilot group. Although they take 22.5% of the dues collected by the Local, the Flight Options pilots have had very little contact with Teamsters national, other than at the Airline Division level. By contrast, ALPA national takes 75% of the dues they collect from their Local organizations at the individual carriers, often rendering all but the large legacy carriers bargaining units ineffective. Onesky would be a flyspeck for ALPA.

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]"[/FONT]Just give us a year[FONT=&quot]"[/FONT] is the biggest lie/distortion of them all. They know very well that if we vote out the union it will be at least five years until the pilots at Onesky have a CBA. In the mean time they, with the pilots reduced to the humiliation of [FONT=&quot]"[/FONT]at-will[FONT=&quot]"[/FONT] employment, will be free to do exactly as they wish. More FOK upgrades out of seniority, discipline handed down arbitrarily etc. Also, if it ever came down to it in the future, they know [FONT=&quot]"[/FONT]at-will[FONT=&quot]"[/FONT] pilots are much easier to bargain with, because [FONT=&quot]they[/FONT] don[FONT=&quot]'[/FONT]t have a CBA to protect them during bargaining.
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]But my favorite is the, [FONT=&quot]"[/FONT]pay raise[FONT=&quot]"[/FONT] lie. See, Kenn knows it would be illegal for him to flat out promise a pay raise if we vote the union out, so he heavily insinuated it in the video he made, has Phil post it on the VUH and has WL post it on here. What does this tell you about what kind of guy he is? Always working around the edges and the [FONT=&quot]"[/FONT]grey areas[FONT=&quot]"[/FONT] of the law and outright breaking it when he thinks he can get away with it. Why anyone would want to work for this guy without a enforceable CBA has always been lost on me.
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Like Martin Levitt, in the beginning I bet Handschuch didn[FONT=&quot]'[/FONT]t even know what he was getting into when Kenn drafted him to carry out the [FONT=&quot]"[/FONT]consultants[FONT=&quot]"[/FONT] wishes at Flex[FONT=&quot].[/FONT] But now he[FONT=&quot]'[/FONT]s in deep and heavily engaged in full on union busting. If Onesky loses the election he[FONT=&quot]'[/FONT]ll be gone just like Boisture at NJ and Tyler at Options. Guys like him never survive a loss like this; Kenn will make him the fall guy for everything and move on. And if he wins, he[FONT=&quot]'[/FONT]ll be remembered forever by the Onesky pilots and throughout the aviation community as a union-buster.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]If this is Handschuch positing on here as WL, it[FONT=&quot]'[/FONT]s clear as the election approaches and a loss for him seems increasingly inevitable, he[FONT=&quot]'[/FONT]s getting desperate. Like a cornered animal.[/FONT]

 

[Ludicrous Speed]

wl & his merry gang are going for broke cuz they over extended. They guaranteed a win to uncle & they're panicking. it's almost funny to watch.

 

[flexible]

wl & his merry gang are going for broke cuz they over extended. They guaranteed a win to uncle & they're panicking. it's almost funny to watch.

I pm him to ask a very specific question and he will not answer. I am having concerns a out thus new rl being not good and the way rh seens to be flipping out. I heardhis pickle bar visits are not turning out so good.

I'm not so sure no union is answer anymore. Those videos were not good. Warlord me and you must have watched different videos. I like Mr. Ricci and I like Rick. But those didn't look too good.a lot of politics answers and some disaster answrss. Furlough our of senioriry? No guarantee of what I can't anticipate? More confused than answered.

So much for him being so sure he knows what's right. I don't think asking him an honest answer was so bad a thing to do. My problem is trying to decide if this will really happen or not. I don't have a problem with one more year but now everyone says it's not really just one year. Can someone honestly explain that away from drama of either board please.

I wo u ld nt go so far to say I'm back on fence still a no vote but I would like to be sure it's the right choicrm.

 

[ksu_aviator]

My advice to those at FO/Flex is to maintain your professionalism, complete your lines as appointed and work your tail off to find better employment. Always always remember, you are your best advocate. The union will do what it takes to gain power (under the guise of increased benefits next time). The company will do what they can to make the most money. You must do what you can to maximize your income and quality of life. Don't be disappointed when someone you don't know doesn't act in your best interest. It is highly unlikely to happen.

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

Do you know Chicken Little?

 

[doh]

I pm him to ask a very specific question and he will not answer. I am having concerns a out thus new rl being not good and the way rh seens to be flipping out. I heardhis pickle bar visits are not turning out so good.

I'm not so sure no union is answer anymore. Those videos were not good. Warlord me and you must have watched different videos. I like Mr. Ricci and I like Rick. But those didn't look too good.a lot of politics answers and some disaster answrss. Furlough our of senioriry? No guarantee of what I can't anticipate? More confused than answered.

So much for him being so sure he knows what's right. I don't think asking him an honest answer was so bad a thing to do. My problem is trying to decide if this will really happen or not. I don't have a problem with one more year but now everyone says it's not really just one year. Can someone honestly explain that away from drama of either board please.

I wo u ld nt go so far to say I'm back on fence still a no vote but I would like to be sure it's the right choicrm.

It is a minimum 5 years to get to a first contract if you vote the union out; AND that is dependent on finding a union who will allow you to join. When we started researching this drive back in December, we talked to TWU, ALPA, and the IBT. TWU only has one above wing group, the Southwest Flight Attendants. They told us they weren't interested because they don't have the expertise for pilot issues. They told us the IBT is the only game in town for our segment of the industry. ALPA wouldn't even return our phone calls. I know at least four of us tried to engage them. They are not interested. The IBT has a fractional local, the 1108. If we vote NO, that local goes away. The only group left would be TMC, with 200? pilots. They would be moved to the freight local, as that is close to the on demand that is TMC's bread and butter. Without a fractional local, and having spent all the money they have on this campaign, they will not be back to represent us.
But let's assume in one year we want to organize, and we have a union who will take us. We have a one year organizing campaign, just like we've had now, and we vote YES. Now we have to get 50% +1 member paying dues before we can elect an MEC. That takes about six months because there is no automatic dues paying until you negotiate your first contract. Now you have to poll the membership about the contract so you can negotiate something everyone wants and will vote to accept. Six more months and you're ready to negotiate.
The average first contract takes about three years to negotiate. And management had an entire year to gut your pay and benefits before your organizing campaign even started five years ago. So that is your starting point! Now RH will say "Why would Kenn do that?". I can't read Kenn's mind, but I do know he promised Flight Options pilots they would be the highest paid pilots in the industry. They voted the union down the first time, and two years later they were the lowest paid pilots in the industry. So their first contract starting point was horrible. I'm convinced we would be in the same boat.
That's why I say we need to vote YES! today, and not wait. Hope that explanation wasn't too long, but that is what a no vote will buy you.

 

[993_Pilot]

993, are you being modest or are you truly not very bright? You seem to write well on this board, kinda like realityman, so I bet your just being modest....

Naw, I'm just a simple country boy, just like SPT.

...Anywho, you say ?A-Friggen Men? is the union rallying cry now?.kinda cute, kinda like ?remember the Alamo? or ?God, Country, and Apple Pie? or something along that line.
Another one would be ?kill a commie for Christ??remember that one?....

http://36.media.tumblr.com/7b645ff6bbfdf62c0b3ca2e4617a3c36/tumblr_mmal19IqXH1s7e5k5o1_1280.jpg

This? I'm not old enough to remember that one. But you have fished out some info on me, I'm less than 60.

... I don?t think anyone (workers or management) knows my identity here (other than Duhhh and a few others who think I?m RH) so I really don?t have anything to gain from management for posting here, other than expressing my own opinions as to what is best for Flex and what the IBT will bring if it is voted in....

I am beginning to believe that you are simply one of the hired guns from Jones/Day, because RH probably wouldn't have the cajones to publicly admit that KR has made mistakes. If he did, and KR found out, he would fire him sooner rather than later... and we all know KR reads these boards.

What I do know is all the LIES posted on this board about management and all the great thingsuke:... that have happened under his leadership?.

Now that's funny right there. Unless by "lies", you mean shining a light on the truth. You, KR and his minions are the ones telling all the lies. Most of the Flight Options pilots have already been through a merger and have heard them all before, so we already know them for what they are... and the Flexjet pilots have been catching on very quickly, as of late. As for "all the great things", are you including the decimation of seniority, because I don't really care if we actually will get supersonic airplanes tomorrow, that pay a million dollars a year. If only the FOK get to fly them, it means nothing. We all know about KR's compensation strategy, it's right there in his book, haven't you read it? If you actually have, please share with us your favorite quote(s).

...I now feel this vote may be closer than what I originally felt...

Another desperate attempt to sway the fence sitters. Care to make a wager on the outcome? I'll happily give you an address where you can mail any amount you care to bet. Just send it to 262 Danny Thomas Place, Memphis, TN 38105.

Voting NO will raise ALL BOATS come Jan. 1st.

Actually, only Voting YES do we have a chance to raise all boats. Voting NO, is only guaranteed to raise the boats of KR, and the FOK. The rest of us will only get to keep what we already have, at best.... if you can beLIEve Mr. Ricci. uke:

 

[Ludicrous Speed]

flex, uncle might be good at explaining his visions, especially when it comes to the OneSky employees, but he falls short on the follow through.

One good way to tell whether someone is truthful is to look at their past performance. Take a look at Bowden’s short video at oneskywatch.org & you’ll see exactly what uncle and his gang did through the RTA merger.

It’s so eerily similar to the current merger, that you can easily substitute ‘FlexJet’ every time you hear Bowden say ‘Travel Air’.

 

[Praetorian]

the video

here is a link to the Bowden video:

https://youtu.be/_dm9k0XHM6A

 

[warlord19]

to: realityman, 993, Ludicrus, et al.
There have been too many posts (election time must be drawing near) to answer them all, so here’s a few general answers to various posts.

Realityman asked what the last 2 years have been like flying for Mr. R….well, none of the 4 things I listed in a previous post i.e. flying broken airplanes, doing illegal trips, etc has occurred, NOT ONCE. NO ROLLING REST blah blah.
I’ve had the OPPORTUNITY to fly new, large body aircraft and even get on the international A/C. We get a free meal a day, a BETTER STIP, free LOL insurance , 57? places to domicile (vs 6 2 years ago), free KCM membership blah blah. How’s your last 2 years been?

From reading the NJ strings here, not so good. I remember (it hasn’t been that long) when NJ was “the “ fractional provider. Now it appears from the posts (under Fractional) that NJ is just another dysfunctional company struggling from day to day. I realize much of the rhetoric is theatre for the negotiations, but I do see the attitudes from many at various FBO’s.

“unions aren’t perfect” someone says. That’s damn profound. Companies and managers aren’t either.

flexible writes that he privately msg’d me about the union, and sure enough he did….the problem was is that his message is incomprehensible. One requirement for having an ATP is having some skills with the English language, but he displayed none…perhaps alcohol was involved??? I don’t know.

Seems everyone at Flex is getting robo-calls telling us if we are a “NO" vote to not bother voting as it won’t matter. ANOTHER LIE. Also, FO pilots are being told if they vote “NO” there will be repercussions….Another reason I just love the IBT.

On principal, would you knowingly send a portion of your dues to a nest of thieves???
That’s what we will be doing if we vote the 1108 in. NJ voted them out. Let’s save a lot of money and heartache and end their reign now. No respectful organization will go near them.

VOTE NO on the IBT.

WL

 

[Imissmypilot]

Wow, Warlordy you personally have gotten to fly these new planes in the international program?

That wasn't too smart to admit because the list is pretty darn short. Either you just outed yourself or you are full of s***.

I'm actually hoping for full of s*** if only because I'd be able to respect you just a wee bit more than the exclusive knee sore group in which you're trying to claim membership.

Either way, you'd have to admit the opportunities available to you are certainly not available to the majority of flexers or ever will be. Your argument fails all over the place.

Even your sycophants (as illiterate as they are) are seeing through the bs. Even you must recognize this because, like a cornered rat, you attack instead of assist the only pilot left here willing to give a damn about your opinion.

It was less pathetic to think you were RH. At least then I could understand where you were coming from: management willing to do anything to prove his worth and save his job. Instead it looks like you're just one of the usual arseholes, who now they've got theirs, don't give a rat's ass about anyone or anything else.

Knowing this, I will gladly and with pride cast my vote for the teamsters who stand diametrically opposed to your self serving and obnoxious agenda. They might not be perfect but your post today put me at peace about my dance partner better than any other proof I've ever needed.

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

WL
On principal, would you knowingly send a portion of your dues to a nest of thieves??? It takes one to know one. We have been getting robbed for too long, so I'm a YES vote. Delay only helps one side, so I'm going to try to be the first one to send in my vote.

 

[993_Pilot]

to: realityman, 993, Ludicrus, et al.
There have been too many posts (election time must be drawing near) to answer them all, so here?s a few general answers to various posts....

Posting the exact same thing in 3 different threads, huh? Are you getting lazy, or just giving up, because you know you've lost?

...Realityman asked what the last 2 years have been like flying for Mr. R?.well, none of the 4 things I listed in a previous post i.e. flying broken airplanes, doing illegal trips, etc has occurred, NOT ONCE. NO ROLLING REST blah blah.

That is great, he is getting smarter, but it isn't because of KR's generosity, it is only because the union has been holding his feet to the fire for the last 8+ years. His history shows differently, and if he ever got the chance to operate without the union... well let's just say that a leopard can't change it's spots.

...I?ve had the OPPORTUNITY to fly new, large body aircraft and even get on the international A/C....

So are you actually senior enough to hold this "new, large body aircraft" (IF they awarded them by seniority) or did you have an "opportunity", because you were willing to step on the backs of others to get there?

Come on WL, Do you really think that KR is picking the pilots for the G450's because they are smarter, more experienced or better pilots than everyone they bypassed? Sounds like it has personally worked out well for you, but do you really think that Mr. Ricci is treating ALL his employees fairly?

What you lack, is the history of having worked for the man for 15+ years as a lot of the Options pilots have. We have heard his lies and big promises before. Unfortunately, a lot of his investors from the ranks of the Flexjet customer list have not. I suspect the money for your STIP went to pay off the investors, so he can keep his seat, because if he misses a few, he could find himself out, regardless of what he tells the pilot group.

Have you at least read your master's book, "Management By Trust"? What did you think of it?

How do you reconcile all the lies KR has told?
- I was military trained
- I worked at Northwest Orient
- I was Bill Clinton's personal pilot
- I intend to keep the companies separate
- I didn't know about the STIP
- I will return the 401k match when we recall all the furloughs.
... and so many more

I know, you are going to say we lied about what we said would happen, but here is the difference. A lie is an intentional deceit, and if some of us were wrong about what would happen it was not intentional. His lies were blatantly intentional and intended to deceive, whereas we were telling you what to expect, based on his history. Obviously KR has gotten smarter, but you are also certainly smart enough to see that what KR is doing with Red Label aircraft, and especially the Large Cabin International aircraft. His new bonus program is a perfect example of how he intends to get the pilots to pressure themselves and each other into operating in the grey areas by giving incentives for things like dispatch rate, and airline costs. You have no legal way to control the dispatch rate of the aircraft, it's either broken or it's not. How do you keep your airline cost's down, you work longer tours, but it will be your "choice". If his history is any indication, those bonus targets will be very hard to reach.

KR is trying to squeeze blood out of a turnip, and he want's us all to feel good about it or be too scared to speak up, and/or get frustrated and leave so he can hire a young naive pilot to take our place. KR needs a check and balance, and a union is just that. A union ensures a level playing field for all, no playing favorites. That's why I am going to vote YES.

 

[warlord19]

Imissmypilot, your THE prime example of IBT mentality.

Threatening me with being “outed” because someone has the gaul to stand up to you and you fellow lemmings….truly pathetic. I would “out” myself if I knew your fellow lemmings wouldn’t be calling at midnight, sending all kinds of terrific messages and e-mails, lighting sacks of dog do-do on my porch, etc but your lovely IBT union doesn’t have the best reputation now, does it?

Also, you appear to be full of bile and hatred, which also makes you one of the top 5 candidates for “ideal unionist”.

I notice that NO ONE HERE has answered the last question I posted…wonder why that is? Also, no comments about all the robo-calls to PRIVATE NUMBERS being made by your illustrious bro’s/sistuhs. For your convenience, here is the comment and question again.

Quote:
Seems everyone at Flex is getting robo-calls telling us if we are a “NO" vote to not bother voting as it won’t matter. ANOTHER LIE. Also, FO pilots are being told if they vote “NO” there will be repercussions….Another reason I just love the IBT.

On principal, would you knowingly send a portion of your dues to a nest of thieves???
That’s what we will be doing if we vote the 1108 in. NJ voted them out. Let’s save a lot of money and heartache and end their reign now. No respectful organization will go near them.
unquote

I’m sure happy you are at peace with yourself and you think you have a good cha cha partner. Maybe some of the smarter FO folks will be at peace with themselves when they can provide more things for their family by receiving much higher salaries, 401K matches,etc etc come Jan. 1st by VOTING NO in the coming weeks.
Sleep Tight,
WL

Oh wait. I just see GC is the first fool to admit he will be happy to send his dues to the Nest….any more???…..I know their’s several of you out there.