A challenge to the Flexjet Pilots on the fence or against a union

[993_Pilot]

realityman: Thanks for answering my last post?it seems to have gone right over 993?s head OR he couldn?t answer it. Any who, I?ve heard of progressive discipline, it?s been around for decades. I also have stated on this board that Mr. R(or Uncle in IBT-speak) has a brass ear when it comes to IBT organizing tactics and his own actions. I do KNOW that if I were working at an organization that paid me a good salary with many benefits and I CHOSE to go on a company-sponsored board and bad-mouth that organization and the chairman and his management team that I could EXPECT to be fired. In our case, It would have been wiser to have done progressive punishment, but it wasn?t and is one of the main reasons we MIGHT see the IBT on-property....

So let's see if I got this right, because I'm not too bright. You want me to comment on something I never saw? Of course I couldn't answer, I don't know what they said because I am not allowed on Yammer, except apparently one of them said "A-Friggen' Men" in response to another post, and that has become the rallying cry for organizing. But whatever was said couldn't have been that bad. Isn't part of the purpose of Yammer for management to get feedback from the employees? What I do know is that the arbitrator, who presumably did see what they wrote on Yammer, and someone with a lot more legal experience than both you and KR put together, sure didn't think it was worth firing them for, and ordered them back to work. In fact, I believe he said "Management's actions were designed to send a chilling message to pilots who were strongly supportive of the IBT's organizing drive." That speaks volumes.

....On the other hand, I?ve never seen so many opportunities and improvements and soon-to-be wage increases( if the vote is NO) that I?ve seen here in the last 2 years. My last post proved how much you and your compatriots will lie and distort the truth for your own purposes i.e. to unionize . I picked 4 things off the top of my head that I remembered lemmings said would come true, and not one of them has happened or will happen?.no response from anyone?.except something really lame like ?the union blah blah.? You say all of us are screwed. If what you call getting screwed all of the above benefits, I?ll supply the KY.
Regards,
WL

We already know you are drinking the koolaide. You have to or you wouldn't be around, but then again, you probably won't be around real long after the vote anyways. The biggest difference here is our perspective. I have worked for KR, and already been through one merger. I know that a lot of what he says are nothing more than false promises and outright lies, because I have already lived it once. I already know he will play favorites and seniority will be nothing but a number if we vote NO. You, on the other hand, haven't been through it before, and can't speak from experience, but you obviously want desperately to believe his lies, and have no choice but to regurgitate them, or you will be fired sooner, rather than later. Your only hope to keep your job is to convince the pilots to vote NO, and even then it is still very iffy at best. I have already seen KR choose his fair-haired golden boys over far more qualified people many times through the years. Although we sit on different sides of the fence, we share something... neither you or I are not part of KR's inner circle, and we never will be. The sooner you realize this, the better off you'll be. My advice to you is to make peace with it, dust off that resume', update your linked-in profile and start knocking on doors. Cheers!

 

[warlord19]

realityman, since you claim you don’t have a horse in this race, I would normally ignore your post. However, you write well and it’s intelligible, even if wrong, so I will indulge you this last message.

First, I don’t generally talk to myself in the morn, though a good BM makes me feel a whole lot better. And you do have a horse in this race, which is to write badly about our Management so as to persuade us to vote in the IBT. Then, it would take us years to recover and vote them out as your present employer did so many years ago after they got to know the real IBT (please, spare me and the other reader the union spin on why you voted them out) while allowing your somewhat faltering organization more breathing room to play catch up with us. Also, we are now a large enough group of pilots so that a union might be a good thing for us….JUST NOT THE IBT. It’s National Office is a nest of thieves, and will probably go BACK under FEDERAL WATCH next year and to whom LOCAL 1108 sends a portion of EACH PILOT’S DUES every month. Such a sweet deal, huh?

If we vote NO and the Chairman of our company turns out to be SATAN, then we can start an HONEST UNION here a year from the vote count. And, we will have gained all the salary raises for EVERY pilot…not a bad deal, huh? Apparently ALPA will consider us if we are not IBT affiliated, and I’m sure your place would partner with us also, right? It’s all about unity and brotherhood, right?

And Duhhh, one of your more emotional guys here, writes that only the Red Label pilots will get these raises……I think even he knows that management cannot promise raises and things during an organization drive…it’s against the law, Duhhhhhh.

So, I’m gonna give management a chance and believe they will do just fine. They are NOT my enemy. If we kick the IBT out, ALL PILOTS should see a good raise. The marketplace for Pilots is tight and that’s the main factor driving wages, not your union or any union (this is assuming your management wants to stay competitive in the marketplace).
Adios,
WL

 

[warlord19]

993, are you being modest or are you truly not very bright? You seem to write well on this board, kinda like realityman, so I bet your just being modest.

Anywho, you say “A-Friggen Men” is the union rallying cry now….kinda cute, kinda like “remember the Alamo” or “God, Country, and Apple Pie” or something along that line.
Another one would be “kill a commie for Christ”…remember that one?

I notice anytime anyone doesn’t agree to your ideas, they have to be drinking company koolaide (as opposed to IBT koolaide). That’s a fine theory, but not accurate. I don’t think anyone (workers or management) knows my identity here (other than Duhhh and a few others who think I’m RH) so I really don’t have anything to gain from management for posting here, other than expressing my own opinions as to what is best for Flex and what the IBT will bring if it is voted in. Your logic in your last paragraph is almost incoherent, as I don’t know Mr. K very well (personally) and certainly don’t expect to be in his inner circle and realized that the day he came on board. What I do know is all the LIES posted on this board about management and all the great things that have happened under his leadership….he seems to bring a vision of where the company can go. You slaves to the IBT bring only doom and gloom and end-of-the-world scenarios that DON’T PAN OUT.

One of the weapons in the IBT’s arsenal is to raise envy and jealousy (among other things) to new levels, which are some of mankind's oldest flaws. You do it well, but most mature pilot’s seem to have caught on to your tactics and I now feel this vote may be closer than what I originally felt. So I won’t be using your advice about resume’s, etc but hey, thanks anyway.

Voting NO will raise ALL BOATS come Jan. 1st. Get out of the RUT, folks, do SOMETHING for YOURSELVES and your FAMILIES. Voting in the Local 1108 that will SEND your DUES to a nest of THIEVES in Ohio is not smart. BE SMART, AND VOTE NO!
Enjoy the day,
WL

 

[realityman]

realityman, since you claim you don?t have a horse in this race, I would normally ignore your post. However, you write well and it?s intelligible, even if wrong, so I will indulge you this last message.

First, I don?t generally talk to myself in the morn, though a good BM makes me feel a whole lot better. And you do have a horse in this race, which is to write badly about our Management so as to persuade us to vote in the IBT. Then, it would take us years to recover and vote them out as your present employer did so many years ago after they got to know the real IBT (please, spare me and the other reader the union spin on why you voted them out) while allowing your somewhat faltering organization more breathing room to play catch up with us. Also, we are now a large enough group of pilots so that a union might be a good thing for us?.JUST NOT THE IBT. It?s National Office is a nest of thieves, and will probably go BACK under FEDERAL WATCH next year and to whom LOCAL 1108 sends a portion of EACH PILOT?S DUES every month. Such a sweet deal, huh?

If we vote NO and the Chairman of our company turns out to be SATAN, then we can start an HONEST UNION here a year from the vote count. And, we will have gained all the salary raises for EVERY pilot?not a bad deal, huh? Apparently ALPA will consider us if we are not IBT affiliated, and I?m sure your place would partner with us also, right? It?s all about unity and brotherhood, right?

And Duhhh, one of your more emotional guys here, writes that only the Red Label pilots will get these raises??I think even he knows that management cannot promise raises and things during an organization drive?it?s against the law, Duhhhhhh.

So, I?m gonna give management a chance and believe they will do just fine. They are NOT my enemy. If we kick the IBT out, ALL PILOTS should see a good raise. The marketplace for Pilots is tight and that?s the main factor driving wages, not your union or any union (this is assuming your management wants to stay competitive in the marketplace).
Adios,
WL

Like said, tell yourself whatever you need to. You are either intentionally blind or are management at FO/Flex. It's obvious by how you respond to me. You keep repeating all the things you think KR will do for you, but totally ignore the points I brought up about the things he's already done to the pilot group(s).

KR could have already given you guys the good stuff to head off a union drive. It's only now, that a union drive is under way, that all the promises are happening. No, that's not suspicious at all.

By the way, having a union doesn't mean KR can't still live up to all his promises. Why does having a union mean he can't give everyone big pay raises? He could engage in IBB (interest based bargaining) instead of the more traditional contentious type that management seems top prefer. If KR is sincere, the only difference between a union and no union is the stuff he (supposedly) wants to give is memorialized in a CBA. The whole idea that voting in a union means you won't get anything for a long time is bogus. That's up to your benevolent leader KR.

As for the Teamsters, it's obvious you have no clue what our history with them was. It's not as cut and dried as you paint it. They have us a tremendous start that we would not, could not, have gotten with an in house union at the time or with ALPA. You think Teamsters are only after money? Ha! They are St. Nick compared to ALPA. By the way, when it looked like we might be heading for a strike we had tremendous support from Teamsters members. They will not cross the primary picket line of other Teamsters. That meant that NJA wasn't going to be able to get parts delivered in a timely manner (a lot of delivery drivers, such as UPS, are Teamsters). They weren't going to be able to get planes serviced in a lot of locations (as an example, Signature linemen are Teamsters, and I believe Atlantic is too ). The list is actually fairly significant of who belongs to Teamsters. Even during our informational pickets back then we had support from the Teamsters we wouldn't have otherwise had. They weren't all bad. And at our size back then they were our best option. We simply outgrew them. You folks aren't big enough for an in house union yet, and you won't be a pimple on the butt of ALPA. They'll take your money and you'll get nothing from them.
As I said, you have no real knowledge of any depth about our relationship with the Teamsters. It was a relationship that reached its natural conclusion for the circumstances of the time. But they were very good for us when we were a young union.

Vote how you like. I have a lot of experience with KR. And I've been following his antics since I stopped working for him. I know exactly how it'll go if you don't vote the Teamsters in. And I do have a dog in this fight, but I think this post is long enough.

Good luck FO/Flex pilots! In spite of what WL wants you to believe, you have our support.

 

[ghostrider64]

Warlord, I suggest you compare the Netjets TA to your dreams of a nonunion shop. When you come back here and say, FLOPS has a much better deal by being nonunion, we'll all start listening.

Until then, the bar for unionized fractional pilots has been set, but it was set in 2005! You're all dreaming if you believe voting no is going to raise your collective bar. Time to wake up and become sort of the collection aviation PROFESSION.

For the record having a CBA during the so called economic downturn was a godsend. No reductions in benefits, and the company still achieved profits.

 

[doh]

And I have a challenge for you 993. Why don't you make a list of all the companies in the WORLD where paid employees of that company can go on a company-provided website and call the owner/management names, that they are stupid and their ideas are stupid, etc etc etc and not expect consequences. I know the answer, probably most of the fence-sitters know the answer.....I wonder if you can figure it out?
WL

Here's your challenge warlord: make a list of companies where paid employees of that company can racially abuse another employee, get caught with porn on their company computers, and still keep their job.
And by the way, not one single one of the the WRONGFULLY, ILLEGALLY fired employees called their boss names. As far as criticizing ideas, that's in Kenn's book. We are supposed to trust enough to criticize the organization and name names. So if any one of us thinks an idea is bad, we should speak up. According to Kenn's book only a weak manager can't explain and defend his ideas. In practice we see that isn't the case. The least little criticism cause management to go on a rampage, firing for no cause other than intimidation.

 

[Praetorian]

realityman, since you claim you don?t have a horse in this race, I would normally ignore your post. However, you write well and it?s intelligible, even if wrong, so I will indulge you this last message.

First, I don?t generally talk to myself in the morn, though a good BM makes me feel a whole lot better. And you do have a horse in this race, which is to write badly about our Management so as to persuade us to vote in the IBT. Then, it would take us years to recover and vote them out as your present employer did so many years ago after they got to know the real IBT (please, spare me and the other reader the union spin on why you voted them out) while allowing your somewhat faltering organization more breathing room to play catch up with us. Also, we are now a large enough group of pilots so that a union might be a good thing for us?.JUST NOT THE IBT. It?s National Office is a nest of thieves, and will probably go BACK under FEDERAL WATCH next year and to whom LOCAL 1108 sends a portion of EACH PILOT?S DUES every month. Such a sweet deal, huh?

If we vote NO and the Chairman of our company turns out to be SATAN, then we can start an HONEST UNION here a year from the vote count. And, we will have gained all the salary raises for EVERY pilot?not a bad deal, huh? Apparently ALPA will consider us if we are not IBT affiliated, and I?m sure your place would partner with us also, right? It?s all about unity and brotherhood, right?

And Duhhh, one of your more emotional guys here, writes that only the Red Label pilots will get these raises??I think even he knows that management cannot promise raises and things during an organization drive?it?s against the law, Duhhhhhh.

So, I?m gonna give management a chance and believe they will do just fine. They are NOT my enemy. If we kick the IBT out, ALL PILOTS should see a good raise. The marketplace for Pilots is tight and that?s the main factor driving wages, not your union or any union (this is assuming your management wants to stay competitive in the marketplace).
Adios,
WL

[FONT=&quot]Remember what Confessions of a union buster author Levitt says about the union buster[FONT=&quot]'[/FONT]s methods? Twist the truth, try to confuse and always, always attack. The post above is a classic example of this. It[FONT=&quot]'[/FONT]s [FONT=&quot]a [FONT=&quot]litany[/FONT] of[/FONT] all the same lies/distortions we[FONT=&quot]'[/FONT]ve been hearing from management since this campaign began. Distortions/gross oversimplifications about why the NJ pilots left the IBT, outright lies about ALPA being better for the Onesky pilots, then the big lie about, [FONT=&quot]"[/FONT]just give us a year". He even works in the pay-raise lie. The fact that he is so [FONT=&quot]"[/FONT]on message[FONT=&quot]"[/FONT] is the giveaway that he[FONT=&quot]'[/FONT]s a professional union-buster.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The truth is, the IBT 1108 is a pilots union made up of pilots, run by pilots elected from among the pilot group. Although they take 22.5% of the dues collected by the Local, the Flight Options pilots have had very little contact with Teamsters national, other than at the Airline Division level. By contrast, ALPA national takes 75% of the dues they collect from their Local organizations at the individual carriers, often rendering all but the large legacy carriers bargaining units ineffective. Onesky would be a flyspeck for ALPA.

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]"[/FONT]Just give us a year[FONT=&quot]"[/FONT] is the biggest lie/distortion of them all. They know very well that if we vote out the union it will be at least five years until the pilots at Onesky have a CBA. In the mean time they, with the pilots reduced to the humiliation of [FONT=&quot]"[/FONT]at-will[FONT=&quot]"[/FONT] employment, will be free to do exactly as they wish. More FOK upgrades out of seniority, discipline handed down arbitrarily etc. Also, if it ever came down to it in the future, they know [FONT=&quot]"[/FONT]at-will[FONT=&quot]"[/FONT] pilots are much easier to bargain with, because [FONT=&quot]they[/FONT] don[FONT=&quot]'[/FONT]t have a CBA to protect them during bargaining.
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]But my favorite is the, [FONT=&quot]"[/FONT]pay raise[FONT=&quot]"[/FONT] lie. See, Kenn knows it would be illegal for him to flat out promise a pay raise if we vote the union out, so he heavily insinuated it in the video he made, has Phil post it on the VUH and has WL post it on here. What does this tell you about what kind of guy he is? Always working around the edges and the [FONT=&quot]"[/FONT]grey areas[FONT=&quot]"[/FONT] of the law and outright breaking it when he thinks he can get away with it. Why anyone would want to work for this guy without a enforceable CBA has always been lost on me.
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Like Martin Levitt, in the beginning I bet Handschuch didn[FONT=&quot]'[/FONT]t even know what he was getting into when Kenn drafted him to carry out the [FONT=&quot]"[/FONT]consultants[FONT=&quot]"[/FONT] wishes at Flex[FONT=&quot].[/FONT] But now he[FONT=&quot]'[/FONT]s in deep and heavily engaged in full on union busting. If Onesky loses the election he[FONT=&quot]'[/FONT]ll be gone just like Boisture at NJ and Tyler at Options. Guys like him never survive a loss like this; Kenn will make him the fall guy for everything and move on. And if he wins, he[FONT=&quot]'[/FONT]ll be remembered forever by the Onesky pilots and throughout the aviation community as a union-buster.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]If this is Handschuch positing on here as WL, it[FONT=&quot]'[/FONT]s clear as the election approaches and a loss for him seems increasingly inevitable, he[FONT=&quot]'[/FONT]s getting desperate. Like a cornered animal.[/FONT]

 

[Ludicrous Speed]

wl & his merry gang are going for broke cuz they over extended. They guaranteed a win to uncle & they're panicking. it's almost funny to watch.

 

[flexible]

wl & his merry gang are going for broke cuz they over extended. They guaranteed a win to uncle & they're panicking. it's almost funny to watch.

I pm him to ask a very specific question and he will not answer. I am having concerns a out thus new rl being not good and the way rh seens to be flipping out. I heardhis pickle bar visits are not turning out so good.

I'm not so sure no union is answer anymore. Those videos were not good. Warlord me and you must have watched different videos. I like Mr. Ricci and I like Rick. But those didn't look too good.a lot of politics answers and some disaster answrss. Furlough our of senioriry? No guarantee of what I can't anticipate? More confused than answered.

So much for him being so sure he knows what's right. I don't think asking him an honest answer was so bad a thing to do. My problem is trying to decide if this will really happen or not. I don't have a problem with one more year but now everyone says it's not really just one year. Can someone honestly explain that away from drama of either board please.

I wo u ld nt go so far to say I'm back on fence still a no vote but I would like to be sure it's the right choicrm.

 

[ksu_aviator]

My advice to those at FO/Flex is to maintain your professionalism, complete your lines as appointed and work your tail off to find better employment. Always always remember, you are your best advocate. The union will do what it takes to gain power (under the guise of increased benefits next time). The company will do what they can to make the most money. You must do what you can to maximize your income and quality of life. Don't be disappointed when someone you don't know doesn't act in your best interest. It is highly unlikely to happen.