9e/xj/9l picketing 12/10 mem

[Vertigo37]

PCL128...right on by most counts.

But BS....B-F-ing-S that the Colgan and Mesaba MEC leadership publically told their pilots not to picket is verbotten. Being silent would have been appropriate. Being "neutral" speaks volumes.

You don't let dirty laundry out of the room. You knew that years ago.

They were wrong. It will be interesting to see what happens in the penalty box.

 

[gojo]

PCL128...right on by most counts.

But BS....B-F-ing-S that the Colgan and Mesaba MEC leadership publically told their pilots not to picket is verbotten. Being silent would have been appropriate. Being "neutral" speaks volumes.

You don't let dirty laundry out of the room. You knew that years ago.

They were wrong. It will be interesting to see what happens in the penalty box.

Again, who says they were wrong? there are two sides to this story. There are some that are pi$$ed that the Pinnacle MEC put us in this predicament. All that was needed was a memo from the Pinnacle MEC stating that the other two MECs felt the timing was grong to picket at this time, but they guarantee that if talks stall everyone will be out in full force. But thats not what happened is it? They basically said scr$w you, were going to do it anyway, and BTW then were going to send an derogatory e-mail bashing the other two MECs because they didn't cave in to their bullying attempt. Poor poor leadership. When two out of three MECs plus ALPA National, yes I said ALPA National said it was inappropriate to picket at this time it should have been postponed. They forgot, or didn't care that we are in JOINT negotiations and acted on their own accord by going against the majority. Face it, there were mistakes made on both sides

 

[SEVEN]

Just shut up. Hey SEVEN, I just have 6 words for you...
"How about a Before Start Check?

Keep dream'n....

 

[tiffanytaylor]

Very proud of you guys for picketing, keep up the good work

 

[MesabaDriver]

I sure didn't get anything in my email from national about the picket. Usually if national supports an event there is plenty of email and so forth. No news coverage either. Nothing on the ALPA site about this picket before or after the event. Im sure you can figure it out that no one supported this gesture.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

With all this venom coming now over this picketing, I question "why didn't you guys simply call for a strike a year of two ago" Don't give me the crap about the RLA. You are being just as militant now except towards the union instead of the company. Yet I still dang near get tiped on my side when deadheading on Pinnacle flights...... You guys have shown no spine when it comes to those that you should be fightning, instead targeting thoses that you have no fear of fighting (and no reason).... Grow some and attack your captors not your fellow prisoners.

 

[RJLoser]

Then...Support your fellow prisoners. You xj guys don't get it. You don't understand what it's like here. I don't know what it's like to be at xj. But you know what???? I'd trust you because you do.

 

[1.3XVso]

With all this venom coming now over this picketing, I question "why didn't you guys simply call for a strike a year of two ago" Don't give me the crap about the RLA. You are being just as militant now except towards the union instead of the company. Yet I still dang near get tiped on my side when deadheading on Pinnacle flights...... You guys have shown no spine when it comes to those that you should be fightning, instead targeting thoses that you have no fear of fighting (and no reason).... Grow some and attack your captors not your fellow prisoners.

You nailed it im a 9e pilot and we have no spine, we have no balls, I said before to call a strike. Im embarrassed to say my fellow pilot group are nothing but cowards. Its the truth. Our union lies and only watching after themselves they are scared as well and been linging us with bullsh*t all this time. Im not blaming you guys or pinnacle pilots. I just simply gave up the fight. You can all run me over cause i just don't give a fly F88k.

 

[xjhawk]

You nailed it im a 9e pilot and we have no spine, we have no balls, I said before to call a strike. Im embarrassed to say my fellow pilot group are nothing but cowards. Its the truth. Our union lies and only watching after themselves they are scared as well and been linging us with bullsh*t all this time. Im not blaming you guys or pinnacle pilots. I just simply gave up the fight. You can all run me over cause i just don't give a fly F88k.

I do not know who the tool is saying that the 9E pilots have no spine, this is not how a GOOD XJ pilot acts nor is it what our union has been saying. the situation at 9E and XJ are different, the bankruptcy was our bad experience and your fight for a contract is your bad experience. Which is worse? Lets have a beer and tell war stories about how bad things were. 9E's management has screwed over a lot of people over the years, lets try and keep some unity here.

 

[1.3XVso]

I do not know who the tool is saying that the 9E pilots have no spine, this is not how a GOOD XJ pilot acts nor is it what our union has been saying. the situation at 9E and XJ are different, the bankruptcy was our bad experience and your fight for a contract is your bad experience. Which is worse? Lets have a beer and tell war stories about how bad things were. 9E's management has screwed over a lot of people over the years, lets try and keep some unity here.

Ive been here for 6 years. I can tell you first hand that we have no spine. I would love to see unity but the truth is that i gave up. I can't do it alone. I already tasted the wraith of 9E mgmt. I accepted the fact that no matter what I do nothing is going to change. I just don't care about anything anymore just pray that one day i'll do a pinnacle escape.

 

[redflyer65]

They had the balls to stand up to hostile management, and they won.

Scott Erickson is no dummy

I have to call BS on this one.

The Mesaba MEC chairman caved on the 'semi-strike' of 2004. I was at the XJ road shows.It was unbelievable. Hold the ALPA line but this is the best we can do. I was unimpressed with Wychor. The line pilots went out on a limb for a full out strike and the MEC sold them down the river for a less than average contract. They went to the wall for a poor contract. (Parts of the PCL 1999 contract was better)

You need to re-evaluate Erickson. He has been the single worse thing that has happened to the Pinnacle line pilots. He has no clue about how to effectively coordinate the efforts of the MEC. << you need to re-read that last part. He likes to distance himself from any real decisions from the MEC. His standard line is that he's not responsible. Doesn't he guide the MEC? He refuses to acknowlege that when asked.

The National NMB has such little regard for him, they sent him and the pilots of PCL packing... placed on ice after 5 years. That's all you really need to know.

Who was better WG or SE?

It's not even close. The line pilots of Pinnacle have lived the pain of the current MEC chairman.

The XJ guys have no clue about how ruthless the PCL management team can be. I feel they are starting to learn. Their previous experience with XJ management was easy compared with this ruthless crew. You guys need to get up to speed.... quick! It's not pretty at PCL.

 

[CptMurf]

The Mesaba MEC chairman caved on the 'semi-strike' of 2004. I was at the XJ road shows.It was unbelievable. Hold the ALPA line but this is the best we can do. I was unimpressed with Wychor. The line pilots went out on a limb for a full out strike and the MEC sold them down the river for a less than average contract. They went to the wall for a poor contract. (Parts of the PCL 1999 contract was better)

Although I did not agree with how the TA was announced, it did not affect the outcome.

Our agreement wasn't the best at the time... Comair was so far ahead at that time, and we were about a third of the size, than beating Comair was an unattainable goal.

But lets not fool ourselves here, the contract was pretty good. The only thing better in the '99 9E agreement are the things that are still better (ie. Insurance) Even after concessions our agreement stayed in the top 1/3 of the industry. With the snapbacks, it's even better. While we have our holes, such as blended FO pay, the snapbacks have made us the highest paid CRJ900 operator in DCI, above Comair and above ASAs shiny new agreement. This on an agreement you call "a poor contract."

Maybe it is, if you look at one section at a time (ie. "I'll vote No for any concession in insurance"), but when you look at the whole package, we weren't doing too bad. My only hope of this JCBA is to fix the holes in our current contract, such as the blended FO pay. That disparity happened due to fleet change, at DOS the FO pay was 60% CA pay across the board. And a short duration, so we can mend this rift we have created between the groups before negotiating again.

 

[PCL_128]

I have to call BS on this one.

The Mesaba MEC chairman caved on the 'semi-strike' of 2004. I was at the XJ road shows.It was unbelievable. Hold the ALPA line but this is the best we can do.

You don't seem to understand how this works. The MEC Chairman isn't a dictator. He doesn't make decisions on his own. The MSA MEC decided the best course of action after examining all of the facts. It wasn't a decision made by solely by the MEC Chairman.

But in any case, I don't see how anyone can say that it was the wrong decision. Refusing to extend the strike deadline would have likely resulted in management digging in their heals and walking away from the bargaining table, because they would have had nothing to gain by trying to finish a deal that night. That would have meant days or possibly weeks on strike as everyone got mad and dug in their heels, and the amount of lost income from that amount of time on strike never would have been recovered at the bargaining table at a regional carrier. The MSA MEC made the right decision and ended up with a good contract.

I was unimpressed with Wychor.

Then your'e about the only one. There is a reason that when he left he was the longest running MEC Chairman in ALPA. He didn't keep getting re-elected for no reason. The guy knows how to manage an MEC.

The line pilots went out on a limb for a full out strike and the MEC sold them down the river for a less than average contract. They went to the wall for a poor contract. (Parts of the PCL 1999 contract was better)

Now this is just funny. The '99 PCL agreement was toilet paper compared to the '04 MSA agreement. Please identify the areas better in the PCL agreement, besides insurance co-pays. The MSA contract was pretty damned good. Was it a CMR contract? Of course not. At the time, MSA was flying all Saabs and a few Avros that were about to go away in short order. For a carrier of Mesaba's size and type of operations, that contract was impressive.

You need to re-evaluate Erickson....... Doesn't he guide the MEC? He refuses to acknowlege that when asked.

No, he doesn't "guide the MEC." He is the Chairman of the MEC, but the MEC dictates policy and sets the direction. The Chairman merely carries it out and runs the union day to day.

Who was better WG or SE?

Scott, without a doubt. WG was recalled with good reason. You can't disregard MEC direction as an MEC Officer. You work for the MEC, and you do what they say. WG directly disobeyed the direction provided by the MEC.

In reality, WG is the entire reason that there was the dysfunction on the MEC that lead to a failed TA. He refused to even let the MEC know what our proposals were at the bargaining table. I was on the MEC for three years, and I never once found out what our bargaining positions were. Never once did I see what pay rates we had proposed. The first time I saw anything from the Scheduling section was after it was TA'd. He intentionally kept us in the dark, because he knew that the direction he was taking was not sufficient for the MEC. The end result was that the MEC was not happy with what had been done at the table, and you then had an MEC that wouldn't support the TA that had been reached. Had they been kept in the loop the entire time, from the beginning of negotiations, this wouldn't have been a problem, because they could have steered things back on track. Some of us tried to get rid of WG earlier, but we could never get the votes together. Too many MEC members just trusted him, even though he constantly kept them in the dark. In the end, those guys realized that we were right, and he had to go. Too bad it didn't happen sooner.

 

[1.3XVso]

You don't seem to understand how this works. The MEC Chairman isn't a dictator. He doesn't make decisions on his own. The MSA MEC decided the best course of action after examining all of the facts. It wasn't a decision made by solely by the MEC Chairman.

But in any case, I don't see how anyone can say that it was the wrong decision. Refusing to extend the strike deadline would have likely resulted in management digging in their heals and walking away from the bargaining table, because they would have had nothing to gain by trying to finish a deal that night. That would have meant days or possibly weeks on strike as everyone got mad and dug in their heels, and the amount of lost income from that amount of time on strike never would have been recovered at the bargaining table at a regional carrier. The MSA MEC made the right decision and ended up with a good contract.



Then your'e about the only one. There is a reason that when he left he was the longest running MEC Chairman in ALPA. He didn't keep getting re-elected for no reason. The guy knows how to manage an MEC.



Now this is just funny. The '99 PCL agreement was toilet paper compared to the '04 MSA agreement. Please identify the areas better in the PCL agreement, besides insurance co-pays. The MSA contract was pretty damned good. Was it a CMR contract? Of course not. At the time, MSA was flying all Saabs and a few Avros that were about to go away in short order. For a carrier of Mesaba's size and type of operations, that contract was impressive.



No, he doesn't "guide the MEC." He is the Chairman of the MEC, but the MEC dictates policy and sets the direction. The Chairman merely carries it out and runs the union day to day.



Scott, without a doubt. WG was recalled with good reason. You can't disregard MEC direction as an MEC Officer. You work for the MEC, and you do what they say. WG directly disobeyed the direction provided by the MEC.

In reality, WG is the entire reason that there was the dysfunction on the MEC that lead to a failed TA. He refused to even let the MEC know what our proposals were at the bargaining table. I was on the MEC for three years, and I never once found out what our bargaining positions were. Never once did I see what pay rates we had proposed. The first time I saw anything from the Scheduling section was after it was TA'd. He intentionally kept us in the dark, because he knew that the direction he was taking was not sufficient for the MEC. The end result was that the MEC was not happy with what had been done at the table, and you then had an MEC that wouldn't support the TA that had been reached. Had they been kept in the loop the entire time, from the beginning of negotiations, this wouldn't have been a problem, because they could have steered things back on track. Some of us tried to get rid of WG earlier, but we could never get the votes together. Too many MEC members just trusted him, even though he constantly kept them in the dark. In the end, those guys realized that we were right, and he had to go. Too bad it didn't happen sooner.

hey pcl128 is alpa going to get booted out of tranny/swa? I hope your not trying to swing over alpa to swa. Thats just plain disgusting if ya do.

 

[PCL_128]

hey pcl128 is alpa going to get booted out of tranny/swa? I hope your not trying to swing over alpa to swa. Thats just plain disgusting if ya do.

No, we'll be SWAPA members when the merger is done. That'll probably be a while, though. Probably at least another year.

 

[CptMurf]

PCL_128... Thank You for being a voice of reason in you last few posts. There is a lot of misinformation floating around about both 9E and XJ.

 

[sinkrate]

You don't seem to understand how this works. The MEC Chairman isn't a dictator. He doesn't make decisions on his own. The MSA MEC decided the best course of action after examining all of the facts. It wasn't a decision made by solely by the MEC Chairman.

But in any case, I don't see how anyone can say that it was the wrong decision. Refusing to extend the strike deadline would have likely resulted in management digging in their heals and walking away from the bargaining table, because they would have had nothing to gain by trying to finish a deal that night. That would have meant days or possibly weeks on strike as everyone got mad and dug in their heels, and the amount of lost income from that amount of time on strike never would have been recovered at the bargaining table at a regional carrier. The MSA MEC made the right decision and ended up with a good contract.



Then your'e about the only one. There is a reason that when he left he was the longest running MEC Chairman in ALPA. He didn't keep getting re-elected for no reason. The guy knows how to manage an MEC.



Now this is just funny. The '99 PCL agreement was toilet paper compared to the '04 MSA agreement. Please identify the areas better in the PCL agreement, besides insurance co-pays. The MSA contract was pretty damned good. Was it a CMR contract? Of course not. At the time, MSA was flying all Saabs and a few Avros that were about to go away in short order. For a carrier of Mesaba's size and type of operations, that contract was impressive.



No, he doesn't "guide the MEC." He is the Chairman of the MEC, but the MEC dictates policy and sets the direction. The Chairman merely carries it out and runs the union day to day.



Scott, without a doubt. WG was recalled with good reason. You can't disregard MEC direction as an MEC Officer. You work for the MEC, and you do what they say. WG directly disobeyed the direction provided by the MEC.

In reality, WG is the entire reason that there was the dysfunction on the MEC that lead to a failed TA. He refused to even let the MEC know what our proposals were at the bargaining table. I was on the MEC for three years, and I never once found out what our bargaining positions were. Never once did I see what pay rates we had proposed. The first time I saw anything from the Scheduling section was after it was TA'd. He intentionally kept us in the dark, because he knew that the direction he was taking was not sufficient for the MEC. The end result was that the MEC was not happy with what had been done at the table, and you then had an MEC that wouldn't support the TA that had been reached. Had they been kept in the loop the entire time, from the beginning of negotiations, this wouldn't have been a problem, because they could have steered things back on track. Some of us tried to get rid of WG earlier, but we could never get the votes together. Too many MEC members just trusted him, even though he constantly kept them in the dark. In the end, those guys realized that we were right, and he had to go. Too bad it didn't happen sooner.

The former Chairman you blame resigned as chairman at the spring meeting in 2007. SE, who had been the NC Chairman for over a year and a member of the NC for two years was elected MEC Chariman. If you were a member of the MEC and wanted to know proposals why didn't you ask the NC Chairman? Two years and a few months later there was a TA. And you blame the individual who resigned two and a half years earlier for a dysfunctional MEC that put a TA out for a vote and then didn't support it??? Thats reaching for a scapegoat. Then again SE did state very clearly at a local council meeting that he was not a leader, he served at the pleasure of the MEC and was not responsible for policy or direction, the elected reps were. In public he washed his hands of a document he spent four years working on in leadership positions. Thats real responsibility. The PCL pilots and their MEC need to look in the mirror to find their problems. If they keep looking for scapegoats they will accomplish nothing.

As far as comparing the two agreements - the MSA FO's on the CR9 would love to have PCL's current FO rates, among other things. It is not as clear cut as you make it out to be.

 

[DoinTime]

Then again SE did state very clearly at a local council meeting that he was not a leader, he served at the pleasure of the MEC and was not responsible for policy or direction, the elected reps were.

Ummm...The MEC status reps are the highest level of governance in ALPA. I'm pretty sure that everyone works for them.

 

[sinkrate]

Ummm...The MEC status reps are the highest level of governance in ALPA. I'm pretty sure that everyone works for them.

So he's not responsible for a TA that failed on his watch but the MEC chairman that resigned two years prior to that is??? You guys don't make any sense. Look in the mirror if you want to see why that TA failed.

 

[Smarta$$]

You don't seem to understand how this works. The MEC Chairman isn't a dictator. He doesn't make decisions on his own. The MSA MEC decided the best course of action after examining all of the facts. It wasn't a decision made by solely by the MEC Chairman.

But in any case, I don't see how anyone can say that it was the wrong decision. Refusing to extend the strike deadline would have likely resulted in management digging in their heals and walking away from the bargaining table, because they would have had nothing to gain by trying to finish a deal that night. That would have meant days or possibly weeks on strike as everyone got mad and dug in their heels, and the amount of lost income from that amount of time on strike never would have been recovered at the bargaining table at a regional carrier. The MSA MEC made the right decision and ended up with a good contract.



Then your'e about the only one. There is a reason that when he left he was the longest running MEC Chairman in ALPA. He didn't keep getting re-elected for no reason. The guy knows how to manage an MEC.



Now this is just funny. The '99 PCL agreement was toilet paper compared to the '04 MSA agreement. Please identify the areas better in the PCL agreement, besides insurance co-pays. The MSA contract was pretty damned good. Was it a CMR contract? Of course not. At the time, MSA was flying all Saabs and a few Avros that were about to go away in short order. For a carrier of Mesaba's size and type of operations, that contract was impressive.



No, he doesn't "guide the MEC." He is the Chairman of the MEC, but the MEC dictates policy and sets the direction. The Chairman merely carries it out and runs the union day to day.



Scott, without a doubt. WG was recalled with good reason. You can't disregard MEC direction as an MEC Officer. You work for the MEC, and you do what they say. WG directly disobeyed the direction provided by the MEC.

In reality, WG is the entire reason that there was the dysfunction on the MEC that lead to a failed TA. He refused to even let the MEC know what our proposals were at the bargaining table. I was on the MEC for three years, and I never once found out what our bargaining positions were. Never once did I see what pay rates we had proposed. The first time I saw anything from the Scheduling section was after it was TA'd. He intentionally kept us in the dark, because he knew that the direction he was taking was not sufficient for the MEC. The end result was that the MEC was not happy with what had been done at the table, and you then had an MEC that wouldn't support the TA that had been reached. Had they been kept in the loop the entire time, from the beginning of negotiations, this wouldn't have been a problem, because they could have steered things back on track. Some of us tried to get rid of WG earlier, but we could never get the votes together. Too many MEC members just trusted him, even though he constantly kept them in the dark. In the end, those guys realized that we were right, and he had to go. Too bad it didn't happen sooner.

Exactly right. WG is largely responsible for the situation we are in. Did WG produce a passable TA before he was recalled? WG, SR, ZC, JB, PC and others are directly responsible for where we are today. We have been in a hole so deep we can't see out for years!