9e/xj/9l picketing 12/10 mem

[RJLoser]

If you guys/gals clearly do not support your fellow company/ALPA pilots it's going to make it clear to PCL guys/gals what to do if mgt wants to bring your a/c over. Are you planning on taking the steps in unity you have been preaching or do you want a group divided? Up to you. Good luck!

 

[higney85]

Two sections TAed yesterday, scheduling almost done. One of the reps from MEM said yesterday it sounds like they're doing some really creative things with the payscales. Current rates +4-5%/yr, split the FO rates, 2%/yr after ammendable. Pinnacle doesn't want to take the payroll hit of bringing the Colgan pilots up all the way, all at once. So, they'd get like 15%/yr and after 4 years the rates would meet and be the same. Evidently the Colgan MEC is on board with this, possibly with the condition of fencing the Qs for a while. Sounds like everyone's playing ball except 9E..

Also it looks like long call out reserve is going to happen at some level.

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That idea WAS fully supported by 9E and even thought up by the PCL Negotiating Chairman. It was summarily turned down by the company's negotiating committee. You think we aren't playing ball? We have an amazing scheduling section, vacation, and healthcare being ransacked. In addition with the increases in healthcare many of the pilots (Fo's) would be taking home a NET LOSS from TA1 if this was signed as proposed. No, that WON'T pass. The games will only get worse with letting out little details that are old news and only part of the story. We have yet to see XJ put ANY skin in the game.

 

[SEVEN]

If you guys/gals clearly do not support your fellow company/ALPA pilots it's going to make it clear to PCL guys/gals what to do if mgt wants to bring your a/c over. Are you planning on taking the steps in unity you have been preaching or do you want a group divided? Up to you. Good luck!

The truth is we need solidarity NOW, not a bunch of ineffective informational picketing that will do nothing but slow down the entire negotiation process and drive a further wedge between management and labor. The Pinnacle pilot negotiating tactics have proven ineffective year after year after year, and their current state proves that. XJ's message is clear: if you're not willing to help and be proactive in this process, stay out of the way and let us get the job done for the good of ALL three pilot groups.

 

[SEVEN]

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You think we aren't playing ball?

That's exactly what I think. Informational picketing during this time is not playing ball. What do you think this is? This is chess not checkers. Now is not the time for that....and our MEC agrees. You guys need to try something different, all that crap in the past has led you nowhere. It 's a new game now. There might be a time in the future for picketing from ALL 3 groups not just one....but that time is not now. Time to get back in the game.

 

[SEVEN]

I have to admit I am a bit taken aback that our union has, in such a public manner, asked that we not participate in a picketing event involving our own company. I've sent an email and hope for a response at some point, but this is going nowhere good and looks absolutely horrible.

What is the definition of insanity? Doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result/outcome.

Pinnacle pilots have picketed countless times all with the same results; No Contract!!!!!!! Stop the madness guys!!!! Try something new....your past tactics have proven ineffective at best.

 

[Smarta$$]

I have to admit I am a bit taken aback that our union has, in such a public manner, asked that we not participate in a picketing event involving our own company. I've sent an email and hope for a response at some point, but this is going nowhere good and looks absolutely horrible.

Doesn't mean you can't support us. We are picketing 9E management to apply pressure and discomfort to speed up this JCBA process. The MEC and the majority of our pilots want the JCBA to be successful, and in a timely manner. Their are some that want to go back to section 6 on our own, but no body with any influence wants this unless JCBA fails completely.

We have been in slow progress mode, often with sections being TA'ed in the past. Nearly 6 years in fact. It is a pattern. They string you along for a slow death on items that are not the "big ticket" expensive ones. When you get to the expensive ones after months/years of doing the slow crawl, they simply won't pay or provide work rules that our peers already enjoy. It is religion for them. With enough pressure applied, it may finally be enough to push them over the hump to say yes.

If the company has a business need for this, the company will not back out just because we picket. That does not solve their problem, and in fact creates many new problems for them.

 

[SEVEN]

Doesn't mean you can't support us. We are picketing 9E management to apply pressure and discomfort to speed up this JCBA process. The MEC and the majority of our pilots want the JCBA to be successful, and in a timely manner. Their are some that want to go back to section 6 on our own, but no body with any influence wants this unless JCBA fails completely.

We have been in slow progress mode, often with sections being TA'ed in the past. Nearly 6 years in fact. It is a pattern. They string you along for a slow death on items that are not the "big ticket" expensive ones. When you get to the expensive ones after months/years of doing the slow crawl, they simply won't pay or provide work rules that our peers already enjoy. It is religion for them. With enough pressure applied, it may finally be enough to push them over the hump to say yes.

If the company has a business need for this, the company will not back out just because we picket. That does not solve their problem, and in fact creates many new problems for them.

Whatever kind of pressure you think you're applying is not working and will not work in the future. 9E management is not threatened by informational picketing.......you guys have already proven that many times. How long will it take for you guys to realize this. Stop trying the same tactics......they are unsuccessful and will not accelerate the TA.

 

[Smarta$$]

What is the definition of insanity? Doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result/outcome.

Pinnacle pilots have picketed countless times all with the same results; No Contract!!!!!!! Stop the madness guys!!!! Try something new....your past tactics have proven ineffective at best.

Just for giggles, besides picketing (which XJ has done in the past "Stop the Madness!!"), what it the XJ MEC or negotiators doing differently than ours has done for 6 years? Showing up at the scheduled time with homework done????

Be specific. What new innovative measures have the XJ MEC/negotiators put to work?

 

[Smarta$$]

Whatever kind of pressure you think you're applying is not working and will not work in the future. 9E management is not threatened by informational picketing.......you guys have already proven that many times. How long will it take for you guys to realize this. Stop trying the same tactics......they are unsuccessful and will not accelerate the TA.

You have picketed in the past... I was also not referring only to picketing...

But please, I am waiting to hear the new innovative and untried strategies your MEC/negotiators are using?????????

What are these new tactics you elude to?????

 

[gojo]

XJ and CJC were invited to join. Initially (and up to yesterday) we were supported, now they are the first groups EVER to tell their ALPA members to NOT support their fellow ALPA brothers and sisters. No problem, FDX and DL will be coming to the party.

Higney, how and why did we get to this point? I thought we were working on a JCBA. The Pinnacle group seems (IMO) to be pulling away and doing their own thing. Now, if two of three MEC's feel that the timing is not right for picketing, why continue? It could also be said that your group is not supporting their fellow ALPA brothers and sisters by sticking together. I personally haven't felt welcome since the merger and intergration talks have started. The majority of what I hear is talk of how we are about to be screwed. I hear statements (and not only on flight info) like 3 or 4 to one integration because of an old LOA, stapeling at 2nd year pay, fragmentation clause etc..... I hope I'm wrong, and it's not the majority of the group with these views, but what worries me is the message the pinnacle MEC is sending. Or maybe it's just you, but in a comment you made on another thread, you stated that the 9E group needs a contract now in the form of either a JCBA or a TA2. I have to ask what is the rush all of the sudden? 9E has been fighting the fight for 5 plus years, and now when JCBA negotiations go on for 60 days its too long..... What are the benifits for the entire group or the industry if your group gets a TA2 instead of a JCBA? It's starting to look like the Pinnacle group is only looking out for themselves. I also question your decision to post on a public forum. You are on the Pinnacle MEC are you not? I'm just saying, the tone in the communications that we get is vastly different than that of Pinnacles. I understand that your fight has been tough. I wouldn't have wanted to be subjected to it myself, but the fight has been and still is with Pinnacle corp. and not with the pilots of all three groups. We need to unite now, and together we can win this fight. If it comes down to a stalemate in negotiations and all three MECs decide that picketing is needed I will gladly walk with you!!!!

 

[WayBack]

What is the definition of insanity? Doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result/outcome.

Pinnacle pilots have picketed countless times all with the same results; No Contract!!!!!!! Stop the madness guys!!!! Try something new....your past tactics have proven ineffective at best.

Oh no, according to ALPA, picketing is a very effective tool in getting a good solid contract. Just wait till next months magazine comes out, you'll have some really neat pictures of yourselves walking in circles and a write up that makes it sound like you're taking Iwo Jima all over again! They'll include words like unity, brotherhood, solidarity, fraternally and last but not least "successful informational picket". Then in another 5 years when the contract is finally getting wrapped up, your MEC will throw you under the bus because "it' what's best for your career!".
Shortly after you will get all upset at the MEC, vote them out of office. Those guys won't fly the line at PCL ever again, because there is no way they're going to work the contract they created for the average line pilot. They're above that.
So they will go and work for ALPA National or DAL Management. While you're stuck sitting their flying a shotting contract.
Look at the ASA guys, they were in contract honeymoon for about a year. Now they're all fed up with ALPA and their contract.

 

[gojo]

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That idea WAS fully supported by 9E and even thought up by the PCL Negotiating Chairman. It was summarily turned down by the company's negotiating committee. You think we aren't playing ball? We have an amazing scheduling section, vacation, and healthcare being ransacked. In addition with the increases in healthcare many of the pilots (Fo's) would be taking home a NET LOSS from TA1 if this was signed as proposed. No, that WON'T pass. The games will only get worse with letting out little details that are old news and only part of the story. We have yet to see XJ put ANY skin in the game.

higney, again I ask why you post things like this on a public forum. You are on the MEC are you not? Even if you do not agree with the way the three groups are working together it does no good to post things on a public forum that only further stir up emotions and drive a wedge between the pilot groups. If you have a concern or stratagy there is a better way to make yourself heard. Some of what you say seems divisive.

 

[RJLoser]

Murph, Seven...you have been right all along. Turns out we are not in this together. It's like telling a kid to not do something stupid. He does it anyway because he does not understand. You guys don't understand the management you are dealing with. Unfortunately, you will.

 

[SEVEN]

Email Update

Following some additional subcommittee work on Monday and Tuesday, the JNC returned to the negotiating table yesterday morning in Herndon, VA. We were able to continue to make progress and were successful in narrowing the remaining open issues.

We reached TAs on Section 11—Training & Testing and Section 24—Filling of Vacancies. We were able to resolve the final open item in Section 24 (freezes following a change in status), which allowed us to finally TA this section yesterday afternoon.

The Scheduling subcommittee met on Monday, Tuesday, and throughout the day yesterday on Section 25. The subcommittee has been working closely to identify the true problems the parties must address in this section, weighing pilot quality of life and the company’s operational needs, and through this process have narrowed the section down to approximately ten remaining open items. While some of management’s proposals on these open areas remain unacceptable, the frank dialogue we have had with management leads us to believe these challenges can be overcome. To put our progress in context, when we left the table in Atlanta before Thanksgiving the list of open items was in the range of 60 individual provisions. Since that time we have been able to make substantial progress in the areas of line construction rules, open time assignment and reserve utilization, the role of the Scheduling Committee in pairing and line construction, and carry-out trip protection, among others.

The JNC has also traded several proposals with management on the Insurance section. We reduced the open items in Insurance to three key items: whether management will have the ability to change the insurance programs without the consent of the Association, the percentage of the premium paid by the pilot group, and the deductibles.

We are awaiting a response on both Section 1—Scope and Insurance from the company this morning. We are encouraged by the progress made this week and hope to build on it. We firmly believe that a single contract for all pilots under the Pinnacle Corp. umbrella will be a stronger agreement and bring more success to our pilot groups than moving forward as individual pilot groups with individual agreements.

We will continue to update you as more information becomes available.

 

[SEVEN]

Murph, Seven...you have been right all along. Turns out we are not in this together. It's like telling a kid to not do something stupid. He does it anyway because he does not understand. You guys don't understand the management you are dealing with. Unfortunately, you will.

Wrong again RJLOSER....Management is all the same....they care about 1 thing....making and saving money. But what is different is the character that makes up a particular pilot group. We have dealt with shrewd management tactics for years during multiple negotiations and have yielded fairly positive results in the past. I don't thing the problem is with your management. Get the point!

 

[gojo]

Murph, Seven...you have been right all along. Turns out we are not in this together. It's like telling a kid to not do something stupid. He does it anyway because he does not understand. You guys don't understand the management you are dealing with. Unfortunately, you will.

I think we do understand. That's what management does. It's the rest that's hard to understand, but even that is becoming clearer every day

 

[RJLoser]

Sorry seven. I know this is tough and no offense intended. I have spoken with your guys that have come over here. It's different than XJ they agree. You don't get it. Let's hope this turns out well. Good luck all!

 

[SEVEN]

Sorry seven. I know this is tough and no offense intended. I have spoken with your guys that have come over here. It's different than XJ they agree. You don't get it. Let's hope this turns out well. Good luck all!

I respectfully disagree....good luck though.

 

[Smarta$$]

I respectfully disagree....good luck though.

Of course you disagree with your OWN pilots that have come here and admit that it is different.

I am still waiting for an answer to my question???

 

[coonass]

to get this out there, Mesaba is not the only group that is Aganist the 9E picketing.its also not backed by delta mec, alpa national, XJ, 9L. So nobody can call XJ to the floor on not walking.