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80 kt call out

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As a first officer, it is good planning to know what the captain is going to abort for. It keeps everything standardized. Except for rare situations, most of the captains have the same abort brief and we are all on the same page. Of course, it is always the captain's decision. Every airline is going to teach it different though.
 
I used to brief engine fire as one of my above 80kts abort criteria, I have since changed it to any fire...
 
And the only airline I worked for directed us to call V1 at V1-5 for the reason that TTFlyer pointed out. It takes about 5 knots to complete the phrase "V1" in every jet I've flown. So if I call it at V1 you could very well be initiating an high speed reject at a speed well above V1.
The Boeing Abort movie says many accidents are caused by aborts after V1, part of this is the late call. They say the airplane is accelerating at 3-5 Kts per second, if the engine fails at V1 -5, the airplane does not stop accelerating, and it will still reach V1 in a couple seconds. An abort at V1 = 2 Kts will result I the airplane going well above V1 before it starts to deacclerate. I find many of my F/O's wait until the needle passes V1, I have made my abort decision at V1- 5kts, but I don't lift my hand until I hear V1 called.

Sure is nice to see a good discussion on this site for a change.
agreed, nice for a change, no name calling a nice touch for FI.
 
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It's your call, but I absolutely disagree. Engines are designed to burn, and engine fires very rarely pose an immediate threat to the aircraft. A cockpit or cabin fire can kill everyone very quickly. Not trying to split hairs or start a fight, but I urge you to reconsider.


I'm with that sharp fella BOILER UP...

What non-engine fire developed in that 35 seconds from power up to liftoff that you detected and aborted for? If anything chances are you smelled bleed air/conditioned air. I will shut that off airborne and return.

No hard rules for anything here, but again and again perfectly flyable planes go off the end of the runway, cant think of any that have burned up in the pattern due to the oven overheating.

In the plane I currently fly 80kts is a callout for airspeed tape comparison just after acceleration meter checks. After 80 kts its only abort for engine failure, fire, loss of directional control (over centerline with no immediate correction) or TR deployment.

The only light that even matters is ENG2 FAIL light (3 engine airplane) We dont care what any other lights/CAS say....we wont abort for any of them after 80KTS.

Common sense prevails, brief appropriately for the airport, weather, etc..

Good discussion.
 
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At my current airline, the Captain decides if and when to abort when below V1. The standard brief from the Captain is "below V1 call out any abnormalities or malfunctions and if I decide to abort we will.....after V1 we will contiue the t/o and....". For anything abouve 100 kts we typically plan on calling out the fire equipment for at least a brake check. We also call V1 at V1.

I've jump seated in many major airline cockpits and I've never heard a briefing much different than this either. I have heard the "above 80 kts" thing while jumpseating in a regional cockpit last fall though. This is the only time I've ever been in a RJ cockpit and I remember thinking it was it was unusual and assumed it was that Captain's personal technique.

This is the same philosophy that has been been in place at all my flying jobs and taught at all my type training courses. It was also the philosophy at both of my USN P-3 squadrons.

At the risk of sounding argumentative, I think the captain maintaining a secret mental list of reject items is a bad idea. It seriously diminishes the benefit of having qualified crew working together, and eliminates (what should be) a trained set of eyes and experience from participating in the second most critical phase of our flight statistically (if memory serves). I have only worked for one airline, a regional, and we absolutely delineated between what was considered a high-speed regime and low-speed regime with respect to when an RTO was initiated. And either pilot could call for the reject, too. I now fly corporate and we do it the same way (not because of me). I think that it is safer to ratchet down the list of possible reject items after 80, too, because now the guy in the right seat can monitor the takeoff only looking for a very short list of malfunctions, and he can devote his attention to telling the captain if one arises outside of the ones that make us head for a ditch (that really only leave 1 item for him to look out for). This allows the captain to fly the airplane. If I'm flying, the second I have to make an interpretation, which I cannot seem to do without looking inside, I'm more likely to let the airplane get ahead of me. I would assert that we're all probably pretty similar in that respect. This way we have a perfect understanding of our duties:

Captain: Look outside and fly
F.O.: Monitor and tell me what's going on inside.

And after 80 there is little that I want to hear other than "REJECT" or "CONTINUE" (or whatever our standard calls may be). I guess what I'm saying is that having a very short list of reject items after 80 knots eliminates the decision making process that takes time and attention during a critical phase of flight.

I would also contend that there is very little chance that you and I could
A:Me determine that there is a problem that you need to know about
B: You to hear me, interpret what I said, and form a GOOD decision
C: Communicate that plan to me, and
D: Execute it

in less than about 5 seconds. If we are accelerating well, let's say 4 knots per second, that means that this process of communication will cost of 20 knots. Which will very very likely lead to an RTO above V1, which we all agree is bad news. Think about it, if it takes a person 5 knots just to say "V1", how many does it take for me to say "We have a left hydraulic pressure low indication" and then for the captain to interpret and react to that? I would say that process could easily take as much as 20 knots, all the while the airplane is gaining more and more energy which has to be dealt with. There is now a giant possibility that I've just said V1 and you said "REJECT". Now we're getting really confused. As YIP posted, there is ample data to back this up. I can't even say "we have a left hydraulic pressure low indication" in less than 2 seconds, no matter how hard I try. And I'm quite a fast, er, smooth talker.

A question for you. What if the PF is not the captain? Can he initiate a RTO? It stands to reason that if the captain is the only one who can decide whether or not we will reject a takeoff, then the FO should to all the takeoffs and let the captain monitor and focus on making these decisions. Allowing the FO to simply execute an RTO when told or Continuing safely in to the air, again when told. I mean, we don't even allow ourselves (in a perfect world) to turn our own heading knobs when we're hand flying the airplane way up in the sky, why now do we want to allow ourselves to be burdened with very critical thinking under a very real time pressure during one of the most dangerous parts of our flight?
 
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For those that would abort for anything right up to V1, I hope you would reconsider when the CAS message states in pretty cyan letters
ANTI-SKID FAIL.
 
my $.02

My experience with the 80 kt call was in line with most of what has been written here, until about a yr ago, which is when I left the corporate world to return to a major airline.

The whole abort decision is and has been a bit of a hot button system wide at this carrier and I have been in the sim and seen my training partner initiate an abort at approx 100 kts for 2 of 6 efis tubes going black. I would have done the same thing. Well, that was not satisfactory, and it was not consistent with the abort breifing taught there.

The debrief for this sim basically went like this: "It is the policy of flight operations management of this airline that you will abort for these _______ items only. If you abort for other items, you will have no support from the management of this airline for that action. The consequences of that action, if you are lucky enough to live through the action, may include intense legal scrutiny of you personally in front of an administrative law judge, a criminal court, and possibly a civil court. If you do not die and others die or are injured, you will be in some deep doo-doo. Even if nobody gets hurt, and you clear the runway fine, flight operations management does not appreciate you trashing the brakes, creating international misconnects, and causing us to have to put 200 pax in hotels for the night, unless it is necessary in the interest of safety. The interest of safety requires an abort above 80 knots for these XXXX items only. Now lets try that again."

At this carrier, there is no secret captains list of abort items above 80. There is a very specific list. They are very serious about it due to some past occurences that have cost some big $, but not a hull loss AFAIK.

I had been throught 6 type rating courses, in airline and corporate positions, and had never seen this hammered home in this way. Good training, I guess. But honestly, if I was flying a GLEX with a BFL of 4300 and taking off on 12000', I dont see the harm, as long as you dont F it up, FWIW.
 
At the risk of sounding argumentative, I think the captain maintaining a secret mental list of reject items is a bad idea.....
It is what it is at my airline and I have no problem with the way it is. I've done high speed aborts in DC-10 (as a FE) and in the 727 & 767 (as a FO) using these procedures. I never had a problem with the way it played out and I thought the CRM on all of them was perfectly acceptable. To me, what works works. This has worked. Further, I've never heard a Captain complain about this way of doing business or seen one try to change it. I also like the KISS principle and the procedures I've flown under fit that bill too. So I'm good and I'm happy to fly this way.
 
Really good read from the FAA and Boeing.

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/aeromagazine/aero_11/takeoff_story.html

http://www.faa.gov/other_visit/aviation_industry/airline_operators/training/media/takeoff_safety.pdf

From Airbus (an excerpt becuase it cites a lot of the same data)
"ABOVE 100KT AND BELOW V1
The consequence of an RTO maneuver becomes more and more critical as the speed increases. Therefore, only very severe conditions should lead to a STOP decision, when the aircraft is at high speeds. In the high speed segment, the crew should develop a “GO” state of mind. However,
the flight crew should never delay a STOP decision, if necessary. Major failures that may lead to the STOP decision include, but are not limited to:

Engine or APU fire warnings
Severe damages
Sudden loss of engine thrust
Takeoff configuration warning
Any malfunction where there is doubt that the aircraft will fly safely.
"

This really has been informative, I learned a lot about some fundamental things that I've always just taken for granted, especially with the FAA guide. Probably the best thing from the FAA that I've ever read.
 
My experience with the 80 kt call was in line with most of what has been written here, until about a yr ago, which is when I left the corporate world to return to a major airline.

The whole abort decision is and has been a bit of a hot button system wide at this carrier and I have been in the sim and seen my training partner initiate an abort at approx 100 kts for 2 of 6 efis tubes going black. I would have done the same thing. Well, that was not satisfactory, and it was not consistent with the abort breifing taught there.

The debrief for this sim basically went like this: "It is the policy of flight operations management of this airline that you will abort for these _______ items only. If you abort for other items, you will have no support from the management of this airline for that action. The consequences of that action, if you are lucky enough to live through the action, may include intense legal scrutiny of you personally in front of an administrative law judge, a criminal court, and possibly a civil court. If you do not die and others die or are injured, you will be in some deep doo-doo. Even if nobody gets hurt, and you clear the runway fine, flight operations management does not appreciate you trashing the brakes, creating international misconnects, and causing us to have to put 200 pax in hotels for the night, unless it is necessary in the interest of safety. The interest of safety requires an abort above 80 knots for these XXXX items only. Now lets try that again."

At this carrier, there is no secret captains list of abort items above 80. There is a very specific list. They are very serious about it due to some past occurences that have cost some big $, but not a hull loss AFAIK.

I had been throught 6 type rating courses, in airline and corporate positions, and had never seen this hammered home in this way. Good training, I guess. But honestly, if I was flying a GLEX with a BFL of 4300 and taking off on 12000', I dont see the harm, as long as you dont F it up, FWIW.

I guess that's kind of my point. There is an industry out there with far more collective experience than any one captain, or crew combined. And there are people that go out there and compile all this and probably enter a piece of paper with a bunch of holes punched in it in to a giant box with blinking lights and bloop-bleep noises coming out of it ...the lights dim and a small puff of smoke comes out and the guy in the lab coat and the pilot hat looks at a clip board and says: "once you cross a certain point there are only a few things that are worth risking an RTO over. These are those things."

I never argue with people holding clip boards. I mean, I don't really know what happens to the airplane I fly currently when it stalls at 45000'. I have an idea, but don't need to find out. The same way I don't need to find out what a RTO looks like on a 4500' runway from V1 minus 6 because of a door message.

Horse, I agree about Bizjets on long runways, but I always try to resist the temptation to allow a "soft V1" because of varying runway lengths. It just seems like a bad habit to get in to, though I'm not sure I posses the strength......to........resist.

Sorry I've been so on top of this thread, just haven't seen a really good discussion about a good topic in a while, I guess.
 
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I'm with that sharp fella BOILER UP...

What non-engine fire developed in that 35 seconds from power up to liftoff that you detected and aborted for? If anything chances are you smelled bleed air/conditioned air. I will shut that off airborne and return.

No hard rules for anything here, but again and again perfectly flyable planes go off the end of the runway, cant think of any that have burned up in the pattern due to the oven overheating.

In the plane I currently fly 80kts is a callout for airspeed tape comparison just after acceleration meter checks. After 80 kts its only abort for engine failure, fire, loss of directional control (over centerline with no immediate correction) or TR deployment.

The only light that even matters is ENG2 FAIL light (3 engine airplane) We dont care what any other lights/CAS say....we wont abort for any of them after 80KTS.

Common sense prevails, brief appropriately for the airport, weather, etc..

Good discussion.

G200,

Yes, Boiler is a pretty sharp fella as are you. I can't agree with you guys on this one though. If the airplane is on fire and I haven't yet reached V1, I'm stopping. Too many airplanes have been lost due to onboard fire which progressed frighteningly quickly. I know I have the performance to stop safely; I don't know if I can make it back safely. Accelerate Stop is rarely the limiting factor in my airplane, and in most cases there is a significant margin of available runway in excess of that required to stop the plane. In the rare case of a very short runway where Accelerate Stop becomes a serious factor, a more in depth briefing with tighter abort criteria might be justified.

I'm not sure if it was a typo or not, but in the brief you gave above, I would expect you to stop too since you said you would stop for fire and didn't specify only engine fire. I know you fly with the same guys all the time; hopefully, they know what you mean.

I also agree. It's a shame there aren't more discussions like this on this board.

X
 
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G200,

Yes, Boiler is a pretty sharp fella as are you. I can't agree with you guys on this one though. If the airplane is on fire and I haven't yet reached V1, I'm stopping. Too many airplanes have been lost due to onboard fire which progressed frighteningly quickly. I know I have the performance to stop safely; I don't know if I can make it back safely. Accelerate Stop is rarely the limiting factor in my airplane, and in most cases there is a significant margin of available runway in excess of that required to stop the plane. In the rare case of a very short runway where Accelerate Stop becomes a serious factor, a more in depth briefing with tighter abort criteria might be justified.

I'm not sure if it was a typo or not, but in the brief you gave above, I would expect you to stop too since you said you would stop for fire and didn't specify only engine fire. I know you fly with the same guys all the time; hopefully, they know what you mean.

I also agree. It's a shame there aren't more discussions like this on this board.

X

Not a typo and yes everyone knows the abort citeria. Its pretty much a standard briefing that I have heard in every training center and every operation I have worked at/known. We do modify as needed as the majority of our ops are, in fact, off shorter runways at higher weights.

No right or wrong of course, but your brief is very unique. What is your FIRE criteria? smelling smoke? seeing flames? hearing screams? A muffin left in an oven or even one side of the cockpit (or pax) calling for more heat can emit something that can be interpretted as burning. Most people want hard info (lights/bells) and no interpretations of smells.

I cant think of one single aircraft that developed spontaneous combustion on the takeoff roll. Swissair was 3 hours into flight and Valujet/UPS were freight. We load the suitbags and the food, we are comfortable with what is there and we have Hazmat training.

FWIW have you done the EVAS/smoke generator drill in the BBD-700? I know Wilmington FSI will do this for a modest fee. We have all done it and its a very good exercise, probably the best 20mins I ever spent in a simulator. Very enlightening....and I agree, a fast developing fire is nothing I ever want to have to deal with.

It just seems that time and time again poor abort decisions keep failing - wrecking airplanes and careers...but airplanes dont burn up on climbout.

I understand no right answer here, its all opinion and adherence to SOPs (whatever they may be) is the critical part.

Have a good one.
 
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Gulfstream200: "I understand no right answer here, its all opinion and adherence to SOPs (whatever they may be) is the critical part."

Once in a while, the SOPs don't address the event, and you have to go with your gut. Ex: 35Kt wind shear at rotation. It's better to roll off the end at 40 Kt than to fly into the localizer antenna berm at 140.

It's crucial that the T/O brief clearly states that either pilot can call an abort. No PIC should ever reserve the abort decision to him/herself.
 
One thing that might be mentioned here.

Fly the "eff'n" airplane!!! Even when it's just rolling.

Scenario: 80+ KIAS abort (reject) with an engine fire or other structural fire.

Depending on the aircraft type, i.e. fuselage vs. wing-mounted engines; corp. jet vs. airline, it's probably better to skip the "Engine Fire/Severe Damage" items and skip to the "Emergency Evac." items/checklist. Don't waste time doing the wrong checklist.

Another thing. Know the difference between smoke odors. Some pack odors aren't really fires. Non-engine/APU fires usually come with three things: Recirc. fans, ovens (which should never have been turned on), and inflight entertainment systems. Know where those switches are!! If you have FAs you might start trusting them, or have them removed. Put your "eff'n" mask on!! Fly the "eff'n" airplane!!!
 

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